Is this model pretty to you?

[AGBF]

Going all Dr. Laura is thinking you are working to get the world to "do the right thing", while failing to realize that it is actually YOUR thing you are trying to enforce onto others.

This is not personal to me either.
After all it's all just ideas flying around the Internet.

I have no power, Kenny. I am not the government. Why do you fear discussion?

Deb

Huh????????
What in the world are you talking about?
Keep in mind I only speak English.

No fear.
Discuss on.

Actually I have to go to out now.
More later.

Kenny...what are you smoking? Where did I speak any language besides English?

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

Sorry Deb I was just trying to say, in a cute way, that I did not understand you, hence the English-only comment.

Ironically you didn't get it so may I should try using English.

 

[Gypsy]

She's scarey skinny. Those legs have no definition. And her hair looks lank. I want to feed her some dairy. But her face could be okay with some makeup and photography.

 

[AGBF]

Sorry Deb I was just trying to say, in a cute way, that I did not understand you, hence the English-only comment.

Ironically you didn't get it so may I should try using English.

I'm ready to acknowledge that I find you cute and to stop trying to hash this out with you. At least for now. I could go on. I know very well what I meant. I have no desire to be adversarial with you, however. I like you too much.

Deb

 

[kenny]

Yeah, I don't like arguing either.

 

[Kaleigh]

I am hoping she gets a good meal, and some lessons in posture.. She's got a lovely face.

 

[Imdanny]

No.

 

[steph72276]

Tall and thin can be really beautiful. Both of my sister in laws are 6 ft tall and skinny, but they look healthy and have at least some muscle definition. They have glowing skin and shiny hair. This poor girl looks like she is tired, pale, and almost like it hurts to hold the weight of her head up. It could just be a bad picture, or at the end of a very long day, but just looking at this pic, it looks like she is not healthy.

 

[Nomsdeplume]

If I had to compare her to the average woman on the street, yes she is. She is tall, thin and has attractive facial features.

 

[Imdanny]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But health isn't, and she doesn't look healthy. She looks anorexic.

It's just a photograph on the internet, I'm not her doctor, but we were asked, "Is this model pretty to you?"

To me, no. She seems alarmingly thin and that's certainly not my idea of beauty.

I though your comments were interesting because I interpreted them as saying that we shouldn't judge. But that's exactly what we were asked to do.

From the article (the video isn't working):

"When Tyra first sees Ann she tells her: 'You have the smallest waist in the world. Look at that waist!'

But she soon gets over her surprise and admits: 'There's something about her I quite like.'

If she's not, actually, healthy and she dies, as some models have, this is going to look like a very bad publicity stunt on the part of Tyra Banks.

I don't have a lot of respect for people who promote models who are as thin as this.

 

[Imdanny]

I know it is possible some people are naturally this slender, and for them I respect diversity.

But really, isn't it a HUGE problem in our society that women and girls think being super thin is SUPER important to the point they are harming their health to get there?

I think for this reason is is irresponsible for the producers of America's Next Top Model to even consider bringing a contestant like this into the show.

If you wanted to have a conversation about the fashion industry perpetuating a beauty ideal that is impossible for many to achieve, then why didn't you start a topic on that? Instead you posted a super tall, super thin woman and asked if people thought she was pretty. Be real-you were going for shock value, not measured responses.

And how is it irresponsible for ANTM producers to feature women who conform to the current ideal beauty standards in the fashion industry? Isn't that THE POINT of the show?

thing2of2,

I like you and I like your direct style, but I don't think you're being fair to Kenny. I don't think Kenny did anything wrong in this thread.

We cannot assume that this woman is at her "natural" weight. We have no reason to assume that at all. As I understood what Kenny was asking, it was is this particular "standard of beauty" pretty to you? It's not to me, I doubt that this woman is at her "natural" weight, the point of this woman's appearance per Tyra's response was to shock, and if this is the current ideal beauty standard in the fashion industry in which there are models who are dying from eating disorders, then it's not a good thing.

I've known Kenny for many years and I seriously doubt that he was using this young woman's picture as an excuse to shock and offend us.

With respect,

Danny

 

[AGBF]

Should we ban threads on reality TV, or ice cream flavors?

I know I said I would stop hashing this out with you, Kenny. And I will drop the discussion I was having with you before, but I can't bow out of the discussion. It's way too interesting.

I am actually against all censorship and, before Windows and websites, I used to post on USENET. The "alt" newsgroups were completely uncensored and also completed covered in spam from pornographic sites in those days. Those of you who were around will remember what it was like to try to have a discussion in a discussion group! It was great to be able to have a totally uncensored forum owned by no one, however.

Pricescope, in contrast, is a lovely and polished place without spam. It is kept free of intrusion and it is kept safe for civilized discourse as well. One need not fear unwarranted, wild, personal attacks by maniacs from hell as one did on the USENET groups. There are rules to follow here; there is censorship. It makes me think of Freud's Civilization and Its Discontents. Being civilized has great benefits, but it also puts constraints on man and his natural impulses. He cannot act freely on all his desires within a group of other people with whom he must get along.

The question, for me, is not should threads on reality TV be banned everywhere, but should they be promoted on Pricescope.

If I were the US government, I'd say that threads on reality TV should not be banned. If I were Andrey, I'd be really tempted to ban them on Pricescope just because I could (although I hope I'd have the wisdom not to do so). As a lowly Pricescope member, all I can do is say that I am awed that so many people love those shows.

I am an ACLU type person. I believe in everyone's right to speak out, no matter how offensive it is to me. I just wanted to set the record straight.

I'm also a "Your kink may not be my kink, but that's OK with me" kind of person.

Deb/AGBF

 

[princesss]

I know it is possible some people are naturally this slender, and for them I respect diversity.

But really, isn't it a HUGE problem in our society that women and girls think being super thin is SUPER important to the point they are harming their health to get there?

I think for this reason is is irresponsible for the producers of America's Next Top Model to even consider bringing a contestant like this into the show.

If you wanted to have a conversation about the fashion industry perpetuating a beauty ideal that is impossible for many to achieve, then why didn't you start a topic on that? Instead you posted a super tall, super thin woman and asked if people thought she was pretty. Be real-you were going for shock value, not measured responses.

And how is it irresponsible for ANTM producers to feature women who conform to the current ideal beauty standards in the fashion industry? Isn't that THE POINT of the show?

thing2of2,

I like you and I like your direct style, but I don't think you're being fair to Kenny. I don't think Kenny did anything wrong in this thread.

We cannot assume that this woman is at her "natural" weight. We have no reason to assume that at all. As I understood what Kenny was asking, it was is this particular "standard of beauty" pretty to you? It's not to me, I doubt that this woman is at her "natural" weight, the point of this woman's appearance per Tyra's response was to shock, and if this is the current ideal beauty standard in the fashion industry in which there are models who are dying from eating disorders, then it's not a good thing.

I've known Kenny for many years and I seriously doubt that he was using this young woman's picture as an excuse to shock and offend us.

With respect,

Danny

Why do we have to assume this girl isn't at a natural weight? The fact is, we know absolutely nothing about this girl - she could eat 3,000 calories a day and still look like this (like a friend of mine from HS who has tried desperately to put on weight since I met her 9 years ago and just can't do it), or eat half an apple and feel like she's having a fat day. We just don't know.

This picture is nothing *but* shock value. A real conversation could be had easily (and it could be very interesting) by posing the questions Thing mentioned above. That's a conversation I'd like to see.

 

[kenny]

Deb, I also am an ACLUite.
I also oppose censorship and have been on fora that banned only pron and spam and revealing the personal info of other posters.
Those were wild places.
The personal insults got really bad at times.

I totally understand PS rules and that they keep us away from inflammatory subjects to keep this place more civil.
I myself started a thread about a forbidden topic (I remembered politics and religion were banned but middle-aged brain forgot the racism topic was too) my bad, and I sincerely apologize if I caused hurt to any one just by introducing the topic although I clearly oppose racism.

I am opposed to discrimination based on anything both against people and against forum topics.
I am pro-gun control.
I don't like or want guns in my life BUT I out of courtesy I will not post in the current thread about gun ownership.
It is a thread in which people who do like guns are enjoying discussing their interest, an interest which is legal and even protected by the constitution.

So I think a thread about any topic not forbidden by PS rules should be allowed on PS.
I do not think people who start them should be chastised.
Yes posters have a right to voice their opinion that the size of women's bodies is not an acceptable topic.
I have a right to post in the gun-enjoyment thread my pro-gun-control views, but I choose not to in order to be a nicer member of the community.
I'm not going to spoil their discussion even though I have strong views about the topic.
I try to respect diversity so I respect their right to enjoy a thread about their guns, and also the right of people to watch reality TV and smoke cigarettes and discuss it here.

Let's feel free to express our dissenting opinions, but not feel free to silence others.

As my sigline says . . .

 

[iheartscience]

I know it is possible some people are naturally this slender, and for them I respect diversity.

But really, isn't it a HUGE problem in our society that women and girls think being super thin is SUPER important to the point they are harming their health to get there?

I think for this reason is is irresponsible for the producers of America's Next Top Model to even consider bringing a contestant like this into the show.

If you wanted to have a conversation about the fashion industry perpetuating a beauty ideal that is impossible for many to achieve, then why didn't you start a topic on that? Instead you posted a super tall, super thin woman and asked if people thought she was pretty. Be real-you were going for shock value, not measured responses.

And how is it irresponsible for ANTM producers to feature women who conform to the current ideal beauty standards in the fashion industry? Isn't that THE POINT of the show?

thing2of2,

I like you and I like your direct style, but I don't think you're being fair to Kenny. I don't think Kenny did anything wrong in this thread.

We cannot assume that this woman is at her "natural" weight. We have no reason to assume that at all. As I understood what Kenny was asking, it was is this particular "standard of beauty" pretty to you? It's not to me, I doubt that this woman is at her "natural" weight, the point of this woman's appearance per Tyra's response was to shock, and if this is the current ideal beauty standard in the fashion industry in which there are models who are dying from eating disorders, then it's not a good thing.

I've known Kenny for many years and I seriously doubt that he was using this young woman's picture as an excuse to shock and offend us.

With respect,

Danny

Why do we have to assume this girl isn't at a natural weight? The fact is, we know absolutely nothing about this girl - she could eat 3,000 calories a day and still look like this (like a friend of mine from HS who has tried desperately to put on weight since I met her 9 years ago and just can't do it), or eat half an apple and feel like she's having a fat day. We just don't know.

This picture is nothing *but* shock value. A real conversation could be had easily (and it could be very interesting) by posing the questions Thing mentioned above. That's a conversation I'd like to see.

Danny-

Princesss covered the first part of your post for me, so I quoted her. We can't assume that she is or is not that weight naturally. And I didn't think kenny was trying to offend anyone, but I do think that he didn't set up this thread for a thoughtful conversation. Instead his original post was a photo of a tall, thin girl wearing a corset that made her look even thinner and a question about if she was pretty or not. To me it was designed more for shock value, and was obviously just going to garner "OMG SHE IS ANOREXIC 4 SURE" responses.

As for whether or not I think her standard of beauty is ideal: yes, I sure do! I'm naturally tall and thin, and I think I'm plenty beautiful. I'm 5'8" compared to her 6'2", but I still look lanky, and most people assume I'm taller than I am because I'm on the slim side. It is definitely possible to be as thin as she is naturally.

ETA: The constant threads on how terribly ugly these super skinny women are get old and oftentimes are offensive. I think a post with an overweight woman would get a much different response, more along the lines of "You go girl! Curves! That's a REAL woman!"

And I always like your posts, too. We can agree to disagree on this one!

 

[AGBF]

Kenny,

It has been said many times and has become a cliché, but people are often advised to speak in the "I" form when they want to be less argumentative and really just want to express themselves, not fight with others.

I looked back on both my posting to you and your posting to me and saw that each of us had written in the "I" form. The good old first person singular. Each of us had reverted back simply to stating what his own feelings and opinions and desires were rather than to making sweeping statements about the world and what was right or wrong.

I found that very interesting.

I find you very tolerant.

Hugs,
your friend Deb

 

[kenny]

Kenny,
It has been said many times and has become a cliché, but people are often advised to speak in the "I" form when they want to be less argumentative and really just want to express themselves, not fight with others.

I looked back on both my posting to you and your posting to me and saw that each of us had written in the "I" form. The good old first person singular. Each of us had reverted back simply to stating what his own feelings and opinions and desires were rather than to making sweeping statements about the world and what was right or wrong.
I found that very interesting.
I find you very tolerant.
Hugs,your friend Deb

Absolutely!!!

What I find most obnoxious about Dr. Laura (an frankly zillions of others) is she does not come from a place of "I think XYZ".
She comes from a place of "XYZ is just right, so everyone must conform to it".
Rightness is external to oneself.
They do not have to take responsibility for their perspectives, because they are just following what is right.
This means they think they are not being intolerant when they oppose things like gay marriage.
They are just innocent soldiers for a cause that is higher than themselves.

I come from taking responsibility for my perspectives.
They are not external from me, come from above, and therefor something I and others should all adhere to.
They come from me.
If they are messed up, blame me.
Maybe I'll change them.

This makes my perspectives less important than external and absolutely-right stuff, like what 2+2 equals.
Adopting the mental framework of lots of external right stuff is dangerous and leads to intolerance.
If there is one right way then everyone must adhere to it.

 

[Iowa Lizzy]

I just want to say something to the argument of "What if we showed an overweight model? How is that any different?" That seems like apples to oranges to me.

Sure, if you show me a picture of an average plus-size model, I'd probably agree that she was attractive. But there's overweight and there's morbidly overweight. To me, this girl seems morbidly underweight. Yeah, people are naturally very thin and also healthy. And yes, some people are naturally heavy and also healthy. But you don't need to know what Brittany Murphy looked like in "Clueless" to know that she was not naturally that skinny later in her life.

When Tyra Banks, a woman who has seen thousands upon thousands of thin models, says "you have the thinnest waist I've ever seen," I guess I just assume that it's not because she has a high metabolism, you know?

 

[Shoopy]

I don't see how anyone can argue this woman is at her naturally thin state.

I understand that the argument that super skinny women are "gross" and curves are "better" is old and offensive. It works the other way around too. Believe me, I'm tired of people not telling a person they are overweight and masking it behind them being curvy. And I have beef with Tyra and her insincere attempts to portray "natural" beauty with this show and the things she says. Needless to say, I'm not a fan of hers.

But there is nothing about that photo of this woman that screams healthy. Nothing.

 

[iheartscience]

I just want to say something to the argument of "What if we showed an overweight model? How is that any different?" That seems like apples to oranges to me.

Sure, if you show me a picture of an average plus-size model, I'd probably agree that she was attractive. But there's overweight and there's morbidly overweight. To me, this girl seems morbidly underweight. Yeah, people are naturally very thin and also healthy. And yes, some people are naturally heavy and also healthy. But you don't need to know what Brittany Murphy looked like in "Clueless" to know that she was not naturally that skinny later in her life.

When Tyra Banks, a woman who has seen thousands upon thousands of thin models, says "you have the thinnest waist I've ever seen," I guess I just assume that it's not because she has a high metabolism, you know?

Well for one, she's wearing a corset, which is why her waist looks tiny. And secondly, we don't have a photo of her from 5 years ago, so there's no way to know if this is her natural state or not. I'd be willing to bet she's always been thin.

And clearly you've never seen someone in real life who is actually anorexic or bulimic, because they are much, much thinner than this girl.

 

[Autumnovember]

I just want to say something to the argument of "What if we showed an overweight model? How is that any different?" That seems like apples to oranges to me.

Sure, if you show me a picture of an average plus-size model, I'd probably agree that she was attractive. But there's overweight and there's morbidly overweight. To me, this girl seems morbidly underweight. Yeah, people are naturally very thin and also healthy. And yes, some people are naturally heavy and also healthy. But you don't need to know what Brittany Murphy looked like in "Clueless" to know that she was not naturally that skinny later in her life.

When Tyra Banks, a woman who has seen thousands upon thousands of thin models, says "you have the thinnest waist I've ever seen," I guess I just assume that it's not because she has a high metabolism, you know?

Well for one, she's wearing a corset, which is why her waist looks tiny. And secondly, we don't have a photo of her from 5 years ago, so there's no way to know if this is her natural state or not. I'd be willing to bet she's always been thin.

And clearly you've never seen someone in real life who is actually anorexic or bulimic, because they are much, much thinner than this girl.

Not true. A lot of time people who are bulimic look like they are at normal weights.


But to answer the question: No, I don't think she is attractive and I'm not basing that on the fact that she is thin.

 

[iheartscience]

I just want to say something to the argument of "What if we showed an overweight model? How is that any different?" That seems like apples to oranges to me.

Sure, if you show me a picture of an average plus-size model, I'd probably agree that she was attractive. But there's overweight and there's morbidly overweight. To me, this girl seems morbidly underweight. Yeah, people are naturally very thin and also healthy. And yes, some people are naturally heavy and also healthy. But you don't need to know what Brittany Murphy looked like in "Clueless" to know that she was not naturally that skinny later in her life.

When Tyra Banks, a woman who has seen thousands upon thousands of thin models, says "you have the thinnest waist I've ever seen," I guess I just assume that it's not because she has a high metabolism, you know?

Well for one, she's wearing a corset, which is why her waist looks tiny. And secondly, we don't have a photo of her from 5 years ago, so there's no way to know if this is her natural state or not. I'd be willing to bet she's always been thin.

And clearly you've never seen someone in real life who is actually anorexic or bulimic, because they are much, much thinner than this girl.

Not true. A lot of time people who are bulimic look like they are at normal weights.

But to answer the question: No, I don't think she is attractive and I'm not basing that on the fact that she is thin.

Yeah, actually it is true. I've known several bulimic women who were insanely thin. I worked with a bulimic woman who was frighteningly thin. She was in her mid-thirties and often got asked if she should get a senior citizen discount because her face was so gaunt. I also know someone who is an exercise bulimic. And the vast majority of anorexic women are extremely, painfully thin.

 

[chemgirl]

Although I don't find this particular girl attractive, I want to restate that she may naturally this thin. She is wearing a corset which will make anyone look thinner. Her hair may be lank simply because she wasn't blessed with thick, luxurious hair. Her posture could be out of habit. As I said before, I'm 6 feet tall and very thin (currently 122 pounds...I try to keep it above 130 but its hard). I eat normal amounts of food and I am reasonably be active. I slouch as well. I think it could just be the result of being a head taller than all of my friends.

I agree with those who say she's not very good looking. I also don't think that super thin is attractive. She also could very well be on some sort of crash diet. I'm just saying that she may be healthy. I just find it offensive that people will make assumptions based on weight.

Or I could just be over sensitive after the years of being called "Skeletor" when I was younger.

 

[Shoopy]

Yeah, actually it is true. I've known several bulimic women who were insanely thin. I worked with a bulimic woman who was frighteningly thin. She was in her mid-thirties and often got asked if she should get a senior citizen discount because her face was so gaunt. I also know someone who is an exercise bulimic. And the vast majority of anorexic women are extremely, painfully thin.

It's interesting to read your perspective and I think it proves that everyone sees things differently. This woman looks extremely, painfully thin to me.

 

[iheartscience]

Yeah, actually it is true. I've known several bulimic women who were insanely thin. I worked with a bulimic woman who was frighteningly thin. She was in her mid-thirties and often got asked if she should get a senior citizen discount because her face was so gaunt. I also know someone who is an exercise bulimic. And the vast majority of anorexic women are extremely, painfully thin.

It's interesting to read your perspective and I think it proves that everyone sees things differently. This woman looks extremely, painfully thin to me.

True-beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that. As someone who has been as thin as the woman in question without trying, to me she doesn't look painfully thin at all. My hipbones still stick out a little and I weigh 20 more pounds than I did in high school. I don't want to post images of women who really do have anorexia, but if you do a Google images search I think you'll see the difference between this woman and a truly anorexic woman.

 

[iheartscience]

Although I don't find this particular girl attractive, I want to restate that she may naturally this thin. She is wearing a corset which will make anyone look thinner. Her hair may be lank simply because she wasn't blessed with thick, luxurious hair. Her posture could be out of habit. As I said before, I'm 6 feet tall and very thin (currently 122 pounds...I try to keep it above 130 but its hard). I eat normal amounts of food and I am reasonably be active. I slouch as well. I think it could just be the result of being a head taller than all of my friends.

I agree with those who say she's not very good looking. I also don't think that super thin is attractive. She also could very well be on some sort of crash diet. I'm just saying that she may be healthy. I just find it offensive that people will make assumptions based on weight.

Or I could just be over sensitive after the years of being called "Skeletor" when I was younger.

Posting in threads like this on PS is a giant waste of time, chemgirl-no idea why I still try! Every thread like this ends the same way. And I was also called "Skeletor" when I was younger, as well as the less creative "stick," "twig," "skeleton," etc. But hey-we probably won't ever have to worry about our weight so I don't care!

 

[kenny]

Posting in threads like this on PS is a giant waste of time, chemgirl-no idea why I still try! Every thread like this ends the same way.

I do not think the goal of a thread is to arrive at a universal truth everyone agrees with.
A community expressing a wide range of opinions is a giant waste of time?

What were you expecting?
Unanimous agreement?

Diversity of opinion does not mean anything is broken.

 

[steph72276]

The question in my mind is why is scary thin the universal standard in runway modeling? I mean, if men and women alike almost universally agree that thin to the point of wondering if the person has an eating disorder is not attractive, why do designers still use them? And why is there such a difference in standard of beauty between runway and print. The example I think of is Victoria's Secret. While the models are of course thin, no one looks thin to the extreme this girl is. I think it was somewhere in South America where they required a BMI in the healthy range before a model could be hired after the death of a model due to anorexia. Not sure if this is still happening, but I think it was a good start at least.

 

[kenny]

The question in my mind is why is scary thin the universal standard in runway modeling? I mean, if men and women alike almost universally agree that thin to the point of wondering if the person has an eating disorder is not attractive, why do designers still use them? And why is there such a difference in standard of beauty between runway and print. The example I think of is Victoria's Secret. While the models are of course thin, no one looks thin to the extreme this girl is. I think it was somewhere in South America where they required a BMI in the healthy range before a model could be hired after the death of a model due to anorexia. Not sure if this is still happening, but I think it was a good start at least.

I have a theory and it follows the money.
If the corporations can convince you that you must be impossibly thin they can sell you more stuff, diets, surgery, etc.
I heard now there is even a camera that has a setting that can make you look thinner.

If everyone was fine just as they are they'd make less money.

Create a problem, then sell them the solution.

 

[iheartscience]

Posting in threads like this on PS is a giant waste of time, chemgirl-no idea why I still try! Every thread like this ends the same way.

I do not think the goal of a thread is to arrive at a universal truth everyone agrees with.
A community expressing a wide range of opinions is a giant waste of time?

What were you expecting?
Unanimous agreement?

Diversity of opinion does not mean anything is broken.

It's a waste of time to explain over and over again that plenty of women ARE that thin naturally.

And of course I wasn't expecting universal agreement-I was expecting everyone to say "That bish is ugly/anorexic!!!!!!" and that's exactly what happened. For some reason it's hard for people to accept/believe that some women really are that thin.

Not sure what I said was broken.