Is this model pretty to you?

[iheartscience]

The question in my mind is why is scary thin the universal standard in runway modeling? I mean, if men and women alike almost universally agree that thin to the point of wondering if the person has an eating disorder is not attractive, why do designers still use them? And why is there such a difference in standard of beauty between runway and print. The example I think of is Victoria's Secret. While the models are of course thin, no one looks thin to the extreme this girl is. I think it was somewhere in South America where they required a BMI in the healthy range before a model could be hired after the death of a model due to anorexia. Not sure if this is still happening, but I think it was a good start at least.

I'm sure there are many reasons, but a commonly accepted theory is that historically, in lean times, being heavier is considered attractive, and in times of abundance, being thinner is considered attractive. We're definitely in a time of abundance, so thin is in.

As for why most models are thin, the camera really does add 10 pounds (at least). I styled for an online clothing store and the models always looked much thinner in real life than they did in photos. It was actually pretty surprising to me and I've heard that for years. And fashion tends to push everything to extremes, which probably has something to do with why the suuuuper thin models are currently in fashion.

Edited to add a few missing letters!

 

[steph72276]

T2, that theory makes sense. I'm in my early 30s and I remember Cindy Crawford was the "it" model of the day in the 90s. I guess I just wonder why and when the standard changed from something healthy (imo) to extreme thin, which is something that the majority of women couldn't emulate without starvation and or obsessive exercise. And for what it's worth, I do agree that there are naturally very, very thin women out there, but for most women drastic measures would have to be taken to get down that small. I tend to agree with Kenny that it comes down to the bottom line though...

 

[Autumnovember]

I just want to say something to the argument of "What if we showed an overweight model? How is that any different?" That seems like apples to oranges to me.

Sure, if you show me a picture of an average plus-size model, I'd probably agree that she was attractive. But there's overweight and there's morbidly overweight. To me, this girl seems morbidly underweight. Yeah, people are naturally very thin and also healthy. And yes, some people are naturally heavy and also healthy. But you don't need to know what Brittany Murphy looked like in "Clueless" to know that she was not naturally that skinny later in her life.

When Tyra Banks, a woman who has seen thousands upon thousands of thin models, says "you have the thinnest waist I've ever seen," I guess I just assume that it's not because she has a high metabolism, you know?

Well for one, she's wearing a corset, which is why her waist looks tiny. And secondly, we don't have a photo of her from 5 years ago, so there's no way to know if this is her natural state or not. I'd be willing to bet she's always been thin.

And clearly you've never seen someone in real life who is actually anorexic or bulimic, because they are much, much thinner than this girl.

Not true. A lot of time people who are bulimic look like they are at normal weights.

But to answer the question: No, I don't think she is attractive and I'm not basing that on the fact that she is thin.

Yeah, actually it is true. I've known several bulimic women who were insanely thin. I worked with a bulimic woman who was frighteningly thin. She was in her mid-thirties and often got asked if she should get a senior citizen discount because her face was so gaunt. I also know someone who is an exercise bulimic. And the vast majority of anorexic women are extremely, painfully thin.

I should have been more clear---it depends on the type of bulimia the individual is suffering from. Not every bulimic is rail thin, mainly because there are different types of bulimia which I'm sure you know plenty about.

 

[Shoopy]

I should have been more clear---it depends on the type of bulimia the individual is suffering from. Not every bulimic is rail thin, mainly because there are different types of bulimia which I'm sure you know plenty about.

Or did that just come out wrong?

 

[LtlFirecracker]

I am kind of torn on this subject because I see both sides.

Like Thing2of2 I am very tall and thin, and people make assumptions about me all the time. People (including other doctors) assume I have an eating disorder until they get to know me. It is annoying that people look at someone and assume the worst.

At the same time, the modeling industry does promote a body type that is only possible for a very small percentage of the population (<5%). I am aware of all the so called reasons (clothes hang better on tall thin women ect) but I still think it is taken to the extreme and that it needs to change.

There are some complanies that are not going with the status quo. I love the models in the athleta catalogs http://athleta.gap.com/browse/division.do?cid=49936. Yeah it is a clothing company for athletes, they are all in great shape, but at least they are real athletes, with different builds, and look healthy. It would be nice if their parent company (Gap) did the same.

 

[iheartscience]

I should have been more clear---it depends on the type of bulimia the individual is suffering from. Not every bulimic is rail thin, mainly because there are different types of bulimia which I'm sure you know plenty about.

Or did that just come out wrong?

Heh I don't think she meant it that way! It'd be funny if she did, though!

 

[kenny]

Posting in threads like this on PS is a giant waste of time, chemgirl-no idea why I still try! Every thread like this ends the same way.

I do not think the goal of a thread is to arrive at a universal truth everyone agrees with.
A community expressing a wide range of opinions is a giant waste of time?

What were you expecting?
Unanimous agreement?

Diversity of opinion does not mean anything is broken.

It's a waste of time to explain over and over again that plenty of women ARE that thin naturally.

And of course I wasn't expecting universal agreement-I was expecting everyone to say "That bish is ugly/anorexic!!!!!!" and that's exactly what happened. For some reason it's hard for people to accept/believe that some women really are that thin.

Not sure what I said was broken.

Broken, as in waste of time.

 

[iheartscience]

Posting in threads like this on PS is a giant waste of time, chemgirl-no idea why I still try! Every thread like this ends the same way.

I do not think the goal of a thread is to arrive at a universal truth everyone agrees with.
A community expressing a wide range of opinions is a giant waste of time?

What were you expecting?
Unanimous agreement?

Diversity of opinion does not mean anything is broken.

It's a waste of time to explain over and over again that plenty of women ARE that thin naturally.

And of course I wasn't expecting universal agreement-I was expecting everyone to say "That bish is ugly/anorexic!!!!!!" and that's exactly what happened. For some reason it's hard for people to accept/believe that some women really are that thin.

Not sure what I said was broken.

Broken, as in waste of time.

Hmm, I wouldn't consider those words analogous, but okay.

I mean that it's a waste of time to say the same thing repeatedly. So when several posters in the same thread say "You can be naturally thin-I am/my daughter is/my best friend is," but the other posters continue to go on and on about how the model has to have an eating disorder, why bother? Every thread on PS about weight/fashion/photoshop (and of course these are always about women's bodies) goes the same way.

 

[Bunny007]

I'm not sure how to articulate this, so bare** with me...

Some people have asked whether a similar thread with a "larger" woman (for lack of a better term) would elicit the same reponse. Of course not, but only because we're comparing apples and oranges, IMO. Being bigger hasn't been fashionable in well, I don't know how long. Forever. There's no pressure to be big. Teenage girls don't develop eating disorders because they want to be bigger. Being larger isn't today's aesthetic ideal. If the thread had a photo of a larger woman, there'd really be nothing to talk about. I think comments like those we've seen in this thread are just a subconscious reaction to all the advertisements, marketing and whatnot that promote this ideal that most women can never achieve in a healthy manner.

So while I understand that threads like these can be offensive and/or annoying to some and I also understand that not every thin woman has an eating disorder, I just don't see how the above hypothetical is very fair/illustrative. I don't mean to offend anyone at all; I just take issue with that rationale.

** Bare/bear? I remember this being someone's pet peeve in one of those grammar threads and now I'm self conscious.

 

[Autumnovember]

I should have been more clear---it depends on the type of bulimia the individual is suffering from. Not every bulimic is rail thin, mainly because there are different types of bulimia which I'm sure you know plenty about.

Or did that just come out wrong?

Noooooo...I absolutely did not mean it the way you're thinking. I really did mean that she is an educated individual and I do not doubt at all her intellect on the topic.

There are maybe one or two people on this forum who I can't take seriously, but I am very very well aware of the educated professionals on this forum who are far more intelligent than I am.

 

[Dreamer_D]

It's a corset. Without it, I'm sure she looks "normal", meaning her proportions are a little better. She practices tightlacing, that much is obvious. Like this woman.

Wowza!

 

[Dreamer_D]

The question in my mind is why is scary thin the universal standard in runway modeling? I mean, if men and women alike almost universally agree that thin to the point of wondering if the person has an eating disorder is not attractive, why do designers still use them? And why is there such a difference in standard of beauty between runway and print. The example I think of is Victoria's Secret. While the models are of course thin, no one looks thin to the extreme this girl is. I think it was somewhere in South America where they required a BMI in the healthy range before a model could be hired after the death of a model due to anorexia. Not sure if this is still happening, but I think it was a good start at least.

One theory is that mainstream fashion is aimed at women and Victoria's secret at men. Men like heavier women than typical models because it connotes fertility. Women like thinner women because it connotes status: Being so thin means you can always afford to buy a meal -- if you are not rich or live in an country where famine is common, then being so thin is a serious risk of death. Anyways, not saying I agree with it, and there is more to the argument, but there is one possible explanation!

 

[merilenda]

Autumn is right - many bulimics are at a normal weight or slightly overweight. I have suffered from an eating disorder and I have worked professionally with them. If a person is less than 85% expected body weight (with the other symptoms of disordered eating) then they are diagnosed as anorexic, not bulimic, even if they binge/purge. There is a specific indicator for binge/purge when diagnosing anorexia.

As for the girl, I hope she's not damaging her health, and I hope the same for people who are significantly overweight.

 

[Laila619]

Autumn is right - many bulimics are at a normal weight or slightly overweight. I have suffered from an eating disorder and I have worked professionally with them. If a person is less than 85% expected body weight (with the other symptoms of disordered eating) then they are diagnosed as anorexic, not bulimic, even if they binge/purge. There is a specific indicator for binge/purge when diagnosing anorexia.

Yep. I knew several bulimic girls in college, and most were a tiny bit chubby even. Alison Sweeney, the actress, used to be bulimic and she was always a bit curvy for lack of a better word.

 

[Dreamer_D]

And people, can we please stop equating this model's level of thinness with a "curvy" woman and saying no one would say anything negative about a "curvy" woman and so we are all evil for commenting on this thin woman?

It is patently inaccurate to say that this model, perhaps in the lowest 2% of BMI in North America, is equvalent to the type of women who could accurately be labelled as "curvy" by us or by the media. The comparable comparison would be to post a photo of a woman in the highest 2% of the BMI, who I wager would weight upwards of 350lbs and ask if we all think she is attractive. I think the comments would be I-DEN-TI-CAL.... "Don't judge!"... "I am naturally heavy like that, so is my whole family, can't you accept that!"..."She does not look healthy!"..."Eww yuck, no way!"..."Oh, not me personally, but her face looks nice"...

So can all of you skinny B's -- Yeah you Miss Thing! -- please stop insulting a "curvy" woman like myself by trying to equate my "curvy" body with someone who is undoubtedly much thinner than the vast majority of the population?? Get your analogies straight at least if you must get your panties in a knot.

 

[Autumnovember]

Autumn is right - many bulimics are at a normal weight or slightly overweight. I have suffered from an eating disorder and I have worked professionally with them. If a person is less than 85% expected body weight (with the other symptoms of disordered eating) then they are diagnosed as anorexic, not bulimic, even if they binge/purge. There is a specific indicator for binge/purge when diagnosing anorexia.

As for the girl, I hope she's not damaging her health, and I hope the same for people who are significantly overweight.

Took the words right out of my mouth---thank you for further explaining I learned about this the semester before I graduated (abnormal psychology) and extremely in depth which is why I felt the need to comment and say that *most* bulimics, depending on their type, are at normal body weight or higher.

 

[Imdanny]

I think for this reason is is irresponsible for the producers of America's Next Top Model to even consider bringing a contestant like this into the show.

I never had that much respect for Tyra Banks because I think she is something of a concern troll. She says she's perfectly beautiful because she has the right bone structure and obviously she's very, very beautiful, but then she lectures other women about how looks don't matter, and how all types of women should consider themselves beautiful and have self-esteem. Huh?

It's all about the money. I don't think it's about judging the appearance of women, or women's heath, or women's self-esteem, for her. It's just about the money.

JMHO.

 

[Imdanny]

And I always like your posts, too. We can agree to disagree on this one!

Yes, let's agree to disagree! I like you and your posts too much to let a disagreement come between us.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[oddoneout]

She does look unhealthily thin and has just a plain face. I think curves (and health) are way sexier and attractive.

 

[iheartscience]

And people, can we please stop equating this model's level of thinness with a "curvy" woman and saying no one would say anything negative about a "curvy" woman and so we are all evil for commenting on this thin woman?

It is patently inaccurate to say that this model, perhaps in the lowest 2% of BMI in North America, is equvalent to the type of women who could accurately be labelled as "curvy" by us or by the media. The comparable comparison would be to post a photo of a woman in the highest 2% of the BMI, who I wager would weight upwards of 350lbs and ask if we all think she is attractive. I think the comments would be I-DEN-TI-CAL.... "Don't judge!"... "I am naturally heavy like that, so is my whole family, can't you accept that!"..."She does not look healthy!"..."Eww yuck, no way!"..."Oh, not me personally, but her face looks nice"...

So can all of you skinny B's -- Yeah you Miss Thing! -- please stop insulting a "curvy" woman like myself by trying to equate my "curvy" body with someone who is undoubtedly much thinner than the vast majority of the population?? Get your analogies straight at least if you must get your panties in a knot.

I'm not insulting curvy women. My point is that it's socially acceptable to comment negatively on underweight women, whereas commenting negatively on overweight women is not. I think part of this has to do with the somewhat recent trend of touting "REAL women!", implying that skinny does not = real somehow. However, even when I was in middle school and high school many moons ago, I got picked on as much, if not more, than the overweight people in the school.

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

 

[atroop711]

she's way too skinny and it looks unhealthy and unattractive to me.

 

[Shoopy]

And people, can we please stop equating this model's level of thinness with a "curvy" woman and saying no one would say anything negative about a "curvy" woman and so we are all evil for commenting on this thin woman?

It is patently inaccurate to say that this model, perhaps in the lowest 2% of BMI in North America, is equvalent to the type of women who could accurately be labelled as "curvy" by us or by the media. The comparable comparison would be to post a photo of a woman in the highest 2% of the BMI, who I wager would weight upwards of 350lbs and ask if we all think she is attractive. I think the comments would be I-DEN-TI-CAL.... "Don't judge!"... "I am naturally heavy like that, so is my whole family, can't you accept that!"..."She does not look healthy!"..."Eww yuck, no way!"..."Oh, not me personally, but her face looks nice"...

So can all of you skinny B's -- Yeah you Miss Thing! -- please stop insulting a "curvy" woman like myself by trying to equate my "curvy" body with someone who is undoubtedly much thinner than the vast majority of the population?? Get your analogies straight at least if you must get your panties in a knot.

I'm not insulting curvy women. My point is that it's socially acceptable to comment negatively on underweight women, whereas commenting negatively on overweight women is not. I think part of this has to do with the somewhat recent trend of touting "REAL women!", implying that skinny does not = real somehow. However, even when I was in middle school and high school many moons ago, I got picked on as much, if not more, than the overweight people in the school.

And I really doubt that posting a picture of a 350 pound woman would get as many negative comments as this super thin woman did.

You're right. But it also wouldn't get defended.

When someone posts a photo of a shockingly thin woman, yes there are always negative comments. But there are also people who will defend that person's right to be that thin.

When someone posts a photo of a shockingly obese woman, there aren't any negative comments. But NO ONE will ever say that person has a right to be 300+ pounds or that is their "natural state."

As I said earlier, it goes both ways.

 

[dragonfly411]

I'd also like to point out that a 350 lb woman would not ever be considered as someone to be used in advertisements that display the "ideal" for women. Again, to me this goes back to the fashion industry's sick and twisted advertising campaign using women who are on the extreme side of thin. I actually read in a fashion quote from a designer once that to them "clothes fall better on thinner women". They have taken this ideal of theirs to an extreme, and that is what is displayed in magazines, creating a different ideal body image for young women. To the fashion industry, plus size is size 4-6 which is still on the low end of size scales for the average woman. Forget creating clothes that are over a size 10-12.

 

[monarch64]

Dragonfly, I think to call the fashion industry's supposed ideal "sick and twisted" is a little extreme itself, no? Yes, for couture/runway modeling most designers prefer a very slender and tall model. Perhaps the viewers of these lines should keep in mind that couture is totally different from RTW and the fit models for RTW are often more representative of that market. I submit, as an example, a job ad from Chico's searching for a fit model: (From Simplyhired.com)

Fit Model

Brand: Chico's

Location: Corporate - Fort Myers, FL

Submit Profile
Email This Job
Return To List







Job Description
Chico’s, a leading specialty women’s retailer with over 600 stores nationwide, is looking for new FIT MODEL’S to join our team. The positions are part- time and on an as needed basis.

We are located in sunny Fort Myers, Florida so local candidates are preferred/ there is no relocation assistance available at this time.

We will be conducting a search for candidates that meet the following requirements:


Chico’s size 1 - 1.5

Bust- 37 - 37 ½
Waist – 31 1/2 - 32
Hip – 40- 40 ½
Height- Open

To be considered you must forward the following information via email to [email protected].
· Contact Information/ Resume
· Body Shot
· Your Body Measurements


If selected we will contact you directly regarding next steps!

That's not a size zero, or a 4-6. It's about an 8-10.

Just some food for thought before we let the media get us all hyped up over a photo/video that is clearly being spun to create controversy.

 

[Shoopy]

Dragonfly, I think to call the fashion industry's supposed ideal "sick and twisted" is a little extreme itself, no? Yes, for couture/runway modeling most designers prefer a very slender and tall model. Perhaps the viewers of these lines should keep in mind that couture is totally different from RTW and the fit models for RTW are often more representative of that market. I submit, as an example, a job ad from Chico's searching for a fit model: (From Simplyhired.com)

Fit Model

Brand: Chico's

Location: Corporate - Fort Myers, FL

Submit Profile
Email This Job
Return To List







Job Description
Chico’s, a leading specialty women’s retailer with over 600 stores nationwide, is looking for new FIT MODEL’S to join our team. The positions are part- time and on an as needed basis.

We are located in sunny Fort Myers, Florida so local candidates are preferred/ there is no relocation assistance available at this time.

We will be conducting a search for candidates that meet the following requirements:


Chico’s size 1 - 1.5

Bust- 37 - 37 ½
Waist – 31 1/2 - 32
Hip – 40- 40 ½
Height- Open

To be considered you must forward the following information via email to [email protected].
· Contact Information/ Resume
· Body Shot
· Your Body Measurements


If selected we will contact you directly regarding next steps!

That's not a size zero, or a 4-6. It's about an 8-10.

Just some food for thought before we let the media get us all hyped up over a photo/video that is clearly being spun to create controversy.

I'm confused. Aren't they asking for someone in chico size 1-1.5 or am I reading that wrong?

 

[LadyBlue]

Chicos is dedicated to giving its customers comfortable clothing that they can feel good about. For this reason, Chicos clothing offers unique sizing for its clothes. They have Sizes 0,0.5,1, 1.5,2, 2.5,3, and 3.5. To determine the clothing sizes of clothes that would best fit you, Chicos offers a clothing size chart to help guide as you shop. A summary of that clothing size chart can be found below:

Size 0

Size 0 is equivalent to XSmall and numerical size 4 clothes. The measurements for size zero are:

Bust/chest- 34 ½”
Waist- 26 ½”
Hips- 37”
Size 0.5

Size 0.5 is equivalent to XSmall and numerical size 6 clothes. The measurements for size 0.5 are:

Bust/chest- 35 ½”
Waist- 27 ½”
Hips- 38”
Size 1

Size 1 is equivalent to Small and numerical size 8 clothes. The measurements for size 1 are:

Bust/chest- 36 ½”
Waist- 28 ½”
Hips- 39”
Size 1.5

Size 1.5 is equivalent to Small and numerical size 10 clothes. The measurements for size 1.5 are:

Bust/chest- 37 ½”
Waist- 29 ½”
Hips- 40”
Size 2

Size 2 is equivalent to Medium and numerical size 12 clothes. The measurements for size 2 are:

Bust/chest- 39”
Waist- 31”
Hips- 41 ½”
Size 2.5

Size 2.5 is equivalent to Medium and numerical size 14 clothes. The measurements for size 2.5 are:

Bust/chest- 40 ½”
Waist- 32 ½”
Hips- 43”
Size 3

Size 3 is equivalent to Large and numerical size 16 clothes. The measurements for size 3 are:

Bust/chest- 42”
Waist- 34”
Hips- 44 ½”
Size 3.5

Size 3.5 is equivalent to Large and numerical size 18 clothes. The measurements for size 3.5 are:

Bust/chest- 44”
Waist- 36”
Hips- 46 ½”

 

[monarch64]

I don't know how they do sizing, Fiery. I saw that too, so it's either a typo or they have a different number system than other retailers. *shrugs*

ETA: Gaby, just saw your response--cool. Thanks for finding that!

 

[princesss]

Dragonfly, I think to call the fashion industry's supposed ideal "sick and twisted" is a little extreme itself, no? Yes, for couture/runway modeling most designers prefer a very slender and tall model. Perhaps the viewers of these lines should keep in mind that couture is totally different from RTW and the fit models for RTW are often more representative of that market. I submit, as an example, a job ad from Chico's searching for a fit model: (From Simplyhired.com)

Fit Model

Brand: Chico's

Location: Corporate - Fort Myers, FL

Submit Profile
Email This Job
Return To List







Job Description
Chico’s, a leading specialty women’s retailer with over 600 stores nationwide, is looking for new FIT MODEL’S to join our team. The positions are part- time and on an as needed basis.

We are located in sunny Fort Myers, Florida so local candidates are preferred/ there is no relocation assistance available at this time.

We will be conducting a search for candidates that meet the following requirements:


Chico’s size 1 - 1.5

Bust- 37 - 37 ½
Waist – 31 1/2 - 32
Hip – 40- 40 ½
Height- Open

To be considered you must forward the following information via email to [email protected].
· Contact Information/ Resume
· Body Shot
· Your Body Measurements


If selected we will contact you directly regarding next steps!

That's not a size zero, or a 4-6. It's about an 8-10.

Just some food for thought before we let the media get us all hyped up over a photo/video that is clearly being spun to create controversy.

I'm confused. Aren't they asking for someone in chico size 1-1.5 or am I reading that wrong?

That's what it said, but the measurements are spot on for somebody who is an 8-10.


As for why couture models are so thin - isn't part of it that they're supposed to basically be walking coat hangers? Their job isn't really to look appealing (since that would detract from the clothes), it's to show off the clothing.

 

[Shoopy]

Ah Gaby that makes sense. Lane Bryant does the same.

 

[Lauren8211]

I think the model is pretty and very thin. Not the most flattering picture, but... that's life. She doesn't look anorexic to me, just naturally thin.

Models are just different from the rest of the population. Most of them have a thin that is unattainable by the majority of us, and they have features that look good on camera. And I won't lie - the clothes DO look good on them. I may be attractive by normal standards, but I have a bit of a tummy, and that just doesn't sell clothes.

What is bugging me about this conversation is how curvy = overweight. Curvy = curvy, IMO. I'm curvy, as in a smaller waist, and bigger hips. My body curves... literally. That doesn't make me overweight. I don't like how curvy is used as a euphemism for overweight.

And this thread just happened not too long ago. Yes. She's thin. Big deal.