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Is the Hearts & Arrows cut identical to Ideal Cut for a round diamond?

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tuer

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
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28
And,

How to judge what you bought on line is the right one you received? (if GIA certified)

Thanks
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
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1,553
Hi tuer. Hearts and arrows is an emerging trend, and the market hasn't quite nailed down the standards yet.

Not all Hearts and Arrows are Ideal cuts (you can cut a CZ for the H&A image). Not all Ideal cuts are hearts and arrows, either. If you laser-incribe H&A on the girdle and send the stone to the GIA for grading, GIA will put "H&A" in the comments section of the cert. One might think that the GIA put the inscription on and is "certifying" the fact that it is an H&A, which they are NOT. Yikes.

Now bear with us as the obfuscation is just getting started!

There is no Hearts and Arrows grade given by the major labs. This gives rise to all sorts of interpretations about what constitutes an H&A stone. Some vendors require a certain distinct pattern, others require any old thing that might resemble a heart or arrow. Really anal
people break the hearts and arrows down into A, B, and C grades. While one vendor claims that they sell stones with only the most perfectly formed H&A images, other vendors say that the best they're finding on the market today get just a "B" grade.

There also is no consensus on what exactly an Ideal cut is. AGS uses "Ideal" on their certs but GIA does not. The AGA Ideal is different than the AGS Ideal. Many say the AGS Ideal is waaay to broad and many AGS 0 stones are not so ideal at all. Then there is the guy in the mall who will tell you that a 60/60 stone is ideal. EightStar's version of Ideal centers around the image returned in their FireScope while other cutters cut for the highest scores on the BrillianceScope. All red, pink, and black through the "Ideal Scope" is pretty darn good, as is an HCA score of under 2. Other still suggest the ideal thing to do is use certain combinations of the pavillion and crown angles. Then there's the Brilliant Ideal Cut, Firely Ideal Cuts and Tolkowsky ideal proportions.

Pricescope has a great tutorial about all this cut stuff. Enjoy!
 

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Brilliant_Rock
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Feb 26, 2003
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1,553
----------------
On 3/22/2003 10:31:40 PM tuer wrote:

And,

How to judge what you bought on line is the right one you received? (if GIA certified)

Thanks

----------------

- Have an independent pro look at it.

- If it is laser-inscribed you can look for the inscription.
 

optimized

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Messages
306
LOL! I thought the goal was to make things clearer for the consumer, RA!
Geez, my head is spinning after reading all that, and I understood everything you were saying!


-Tim
 

optimized

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
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306
"How to judge what you bought on line is the right one you received? (if GIA certified)"

As mentioned by RA, an independent appraiser will be able to tell whether the stone matches the cert. Also mentioned, laser inscription can be useful, but in theory that could be faked by a particularly unscrupulous and determined person.

Another thing that can help a lot (and is likely a tool the appraiser will use) is to examine the stone under a loupe/scope and compare the visible inclusions against the plot on the cert (assuming it's a full "Diamond Report"). I was able to easily confirm my sweetie's diamond by looking through a loupe and seeing that the few needles listed on the cert perfectly corresponded with the physical diamond. Instant confirmation.
If the diamond comes only with a "Diamond Dossier" (an abridged GIA report that doesn't include a plot) then the laser inscription and professional appraisal will be your best bet.

-Tim
 

tuer

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
28
- Have an independent pro look at it.

- If it is laser-inscribed you can look for the inscription.

----------------
[/quote]


Does the diamond certified by GIA have laser-inscribed? Thanks.
 

optimized

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Messages
306
that gives a bit of information about this topic...

It's worth noting that the "best" cut for a diamond is actually a pretty subjective thing, and as such is going to be impossible to achieve in practice. Some people like a lot of brilliance (white light return), some people like more fire (spectral dispersion of colored light), and just about everybody likes scintillation (the flashing or sparkling "on-off-on" effect of the diamond when it or the light source is moved). The problem is, monkeying with the proportions/angles/facet arrangements of a diamond affects all three of these dynamics, and while one method of cutting might increase the brilliance of a stone, it could very well negatively impact another aspect of the stone's performance.

The "ideal cut" that we all hear about today attempts to find a reasonable mix between these three main factors that people think of when they talk about diamond "performance." Many people have tried to determine what proportions yield the best mix, but easily the most famous of these efforts was undertaken by Marcel Tolkowsky in 1919. He used mathematics and observation (purportedly including asking individuals in the streets to rate the appearance of various diamonds) to develop a formula for what he considered the "ideal cut" diamond. This system, although modified somewhat over the years, remains the foundation for modern diamond design. Tolkowsky was apparently a pretty bright guy, as the "best" diamonds currently available are typically close to his criteria, but many other potential combinations of proportions can also yield a stunning diamond.

"Hearts and Arrows" is the result of cutting a diamond extremely symmetrically, with precise facet alignment. Although the marketing dollars thrown at the cut would say otherwise, I think it's important to remember that an H&A cut is only a definitive indicator of the overall symmetry of the diamond's facets, and doesn't always mean it's a well-proportioned diamond. In my experience H&As typically are also very well proportioned (probably due to the fact that a cutter who puts the level of craftsmanship required into producing an H&A will also go to the trouble of making sure the proportions/angles are ideal as well), but the H&A pattern by itself isn't a concrete indicator of brilliance/fire/scintillation.


Hope this helps...

-Tim

[/u]
 

optimized

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Messages
306
If memory serves, most GIA diamonds with a Diamond Dossier seem to have the cert number laser inscribed nowadays . If it is inscribed by GIA, it will have a note to that effect on the cert. Stones with Diamond Reports seem to often NOT have GIA inscriptions...

-Tim
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
Here is an interesting stones I scanned in last week. It is a 60/60 H&A. By no means should everyone assume that all 60/60's have this kind of internal symmetry though.

Makes for a good educational stone.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_70ct_g_si1_h&a.htm

Peace,
Rhino
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
Hello tuer, welcome to the forum,

A good way to find a diamond that is both an AGS Ideal cut and a hearts and arrows is to go to the top of this page.
You will find pricescope is smaller letters, click on it.
It will take you to a page that near the center top of the page in red you will find Search for cut quality. Click on that and it will take you to a page where you can select Excellent - Excellent, AGS 0 only, H&A only, ct wt, color, clarity and check AGS only.
This will give you only diamonds that have both of what you are looking for.
Have fun!
 
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