Is our insurance company being fair?

sledge · Aug 21, 2018

Mikeeb123 said:
This is the description/picture from a valuation we had. How much do you think we'd need to set aside for the setting? Also, we don't intend to sell it but want it to still be an investment just in case we fall on hard times. Would a G SI1 diamond be as desirable/go up in price as quickly as a DIF?

Using your picture, I think these might be some settings that are similar. I only had a top view, and from what I can tell, the shank tapers in towards the diamond. Assuming I have guessed right, I think it will cost you about $1,200-1,300 USD to replace the setting itself, maybe less or more depending which specific setting you choose.

With import duties, taxes, etc. I think I was spot on about $4k USD for your diamond budget.

Here are some links to various settings I used to help determine my setting value above. By the way, I really like the first one, and assuming I correctly interpreted the taper, that was smart when making your initial purchase as it makes the diamond look bigger.

whitewave · Aug 21, 2018

ILikeShiny said:
Ah, very true. I forgot about that.

As a color-sensitive person I can tell you that the HPD G color shows no tint to me at all. In fact, all three of these are G (mine is the far right); the hint of yellow in the middle one is from some fire.

I have an HPD G and it completely shows as white.

whitewave · Aug 21, 2018

Mikeeb123 said:
Does anyone have any thoughts on bluenile to source diamonds as they have a UK site www.bluenile.com/uk which we could use to source?

They have additional search options which include Table % and L/W ratio. Would you know what these should ideally be?

Many thanks

I have several optimal diamonds from Blue Nile. It just takes a lot longer to find them.

sledge · Aug 21, 2018

Mikeeb123 said:
I have just contacted a CBI seller and they have said:

"I could offer you a 0.78ct D-VS1 EXC/EXC/EXC fluo: none, certified by GIA at 4,900US$ vat excl – 3,905£ vat excl – 4,686£ vat incl. (exch rate 1.28 +2%)

For the little story, the cutter/polisher of CBI also works for the supplier of this 0.78ct diamond. It’s a 3xExcellent diamond, so rest assured that it is a beautiful diamond! If you wish, I can bring it to London next week Wednesday so that you can see it in person."

The diamond they are offering isn't CBI, but does what they say ring true/is the diamond a good one and worth that money/can I trust them from what they've said!

Certificate below.

Thanks all. You're advice is invaluable in my diamond crash course!

I would not spend my own money on that stone. Crown/pavilion combo of 35/41 doesn't work to give you an ideal cut. Also, I don't like the 80 LGF's with it.

See my post above for some other (better) options.

FYI, the most expensive stone I showed you was $4,218 USD, which converts to roughly 3,280$GBP. Add 25% VAT, duties, taxes, etc and you are around 4,100$GBP all in -- FOR A SUPER IDEAL DIAMOND THAT IS A GUARANTEED PERFORMER!!!

In case you aren't aware -- WF, HPD and BGD are all super ideal vendors.

sledge · Aug 21, 2018

Even if you stuck with a GIA XXX stone, that F/VS2 I showed you at BlueNile UK beats that other one to pieces. Gorgeous specs:

56% table
61.5% depth
34.5/40.8 angle combo
75% LGF's (fat arrows)

Maybe your guy has access to this stone, and can beat their price of 3,168$GBP?

BlingDreams · Aug 21, 2018

I’d be wary of that vendor now. They had a chance to offer a gorgeous stone but didn’t. I wonder why? I might be a harsh critic but it makes me think they were hoping to pull one over on you. As you’ve seen from choices we’ve given you, you can get a better stone for the same money as he’s asking.

I’d stick with super ideals from HPD or Whiteflash so that you can upgrade in the future if desired. If you really don’t think that will be important to you, then consider BG Black/Blue/Signature cuts or BlueNile’s that people here find for you.

Mikeeb123 · Aug 21, 2018

ILikeShiny said:
I’d be wary of that vendor now. They had a chance to offer a gorgeous stone but didn’t. I wonder why? I might be a harsh critic but it makes me think they were hoping to pull one over on you. As you’ve seen from choices we’ve given you, you can get a better stone for the same money as he’s asking.

I’d stick with super ideals from HPD or Whiteflash so that you can upgrade in the future if desired. If you really don’t think that will be important to you, then consider BG Black/Blue/Signature cuts or BlueNile’s that people here find for you.

That's what I thought, and so wanted to double check on here. The only problem with lots of the diamonds being suggested is that they are coming from the US and I'm a little anxious about returns etc (and the time they would take).

Mikeeb123 · Aug 21, 2018

sledge said:
I would not spend my own money on that stone. Crown/pavilion combo of 35/41 doesn't work to give you an ideal cut. Also, I don't like the 80 LGF's with it.

See my post above for some other (better) options.

FYI, the most expensive stone I showed you was $4,218 USD, which converts to roughly 3,280$GBP. Add 25% VAT, duties, taxes, etc and you are around 4,100$GBP all in -- FOR A SUPER IDEAL DIAMOND THAT IS A GUARANTEED PERFORMER!!!

In case you aren't aware -- WF, HPD and BGD are all super ideal vendors.

Thanks @sledge - my only concern in buying direct from the US is the time it would take, especially if it needs to be returned etc. I'd feel more comfortable with a UK based supplier, but I really do appreciate everyone's help. Are there any other UK sites outside of bluenile you'd recommend?

sledge · Aug 21, 2018

I understand your concerns @Mikeeb123.

To be clear, I would have ZERO qualms working with HPD, WF or BGD on international shipments. All three ship internationally using Fed-Ex services and know what they are doing. You should be looking at a 2-3 day delivery. If something is not to your liking, you can return as well.

These 3 vendors are seriously some of the best you will find. Two of them, HPD & WF, actively participate in these forums. BGD doesn't but I do know they read as Lesley would occasionally utilize my PS username when I would call her. Truly, they care about their customers, take great pride in their products and want you to have a phenomenal experience. In fact, the owner of HPD, @Wink, was talking about a get together for PS forum members and was talking about inviting people back to his house to grill out on his Traegar.

You will be hard pressed to find such good service, and awesome diamonds elsewhere. So while I understand your concerns, I also want you to know that should you choose to take this "risk" it's really not very risky at all.

Below are all 3 vendors policies on international shipping:

https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/free-shipping/
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-shipping
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/policies#ship-page-cont

scoutfinch · Aug 21, 2018

So happy to hear you can get the cash payout! Whew, happy ending! Excited to see what you find to replace your diamond.

ChristineRose · Aug 21, 2018

This is how an insurance company finds you a replacement stone.

They have a deal with a supplier. They guarantee the supplier a certain amount of business, and the supplier gives them a discount.

They take your statistics, run them through the supplier's database, and pick the cheapest one that matches. In your case they couldn't find a cheap one w/o fluorescence, so they picked another one that was slightly larger.

When they calculate your premium price, they take into account the discounted price of the replacements, their profits, and the likelihood that they will have to pay out. In other words, the plan to give you a lousy diamond that they got at discount is part of their business plan.

The cash is absolutely the better choice.

Izzy70 · Aug 21, 2018

The import and VAt calculator on the James Allen is useful.
https://www.jamesallen.com/tax-calculator/

It’s handy to know loose stones have no import duty. I have ordered a custom pendant from WF to be shipped to Guernsey, Channel Islands and luckily I have nio VAT to pay

sledge · Aug 21, 2018

Izzy70 said:
The import and VAt calculator on the James Allen is useful.
https://www.jamesallen.com/tax-calculator/

It’s handy to know loose stones have no import duty. I have ordered a custom pendant from WF to be shipped to Guernsey, Channel Islands and luckily I have nio VAT to pay

Ohhh, that is super useful. Thank you for sharing!

Loose Stone = 20.275% (VAT only)
Ring = 23.3165% (VAT + duty)

Example attached for $4,000USD.

MaisOuiMadame · Aug 21, 2018

Hpd have vendors in the UK.
The last few times we compared US price +shipping+tax+duty into Europe or UK they were slightly cheaper.
Search Diamond House London & Durham Rose Stratford.
@Durham Rose are on PS

Mikeeb123 · Aug 23, 2018

sledge said:
Using your picture, I think these might be some settings that are similar. I only had a top view, and from what I can tell, the shank tapers in towards the diamond. Assuming I have guessed right, I think it will cost you about $1,200-1,300 USD to replace the setting itself, maybe less or more depending which specific setting you choose.

With import duties, taxes, etc. I think I was spot on about $4k USD for your diamond budget.

Here are some links to various settings I used to help determine my setting value above. By the way, I really like the first one, and assuming I correctly interpreted the taper, that was smart when making your initial purchase as it makes the diamond look bigger.

https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...fany-style-solitaire-engagement-ring-1415.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/comfort-fit-surprise-diamond-ring-600.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...-sleek-line-solitaire-engagement-ring-729.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...ni-1rz7241-solitaire-engagement-ring-3990.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/fine-line-solitaire-engagement-ring-481.htm

Here are some stones for your consideration:

High Performance Diamonds:
HPD/CBI 0.77ct G VS1, 5.88x5.91mm, $4,218 USD
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9639

HPD/CBI 0.72ct G VS1, 5.77x5.80mm, $3,747 USD
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9732

HPD/CBI 0.72ct D SI1, 5.79x5.81mm, $3,739 USD
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9386

HPD/CBI 0.70ct D VS2, 5.72x5.74mm, $4,204 USD
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9377

WhiteFlash:
WF ACA 0.801ct F SI1, 5.97x5.99mm, $3,879 USD
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3978029.htm

WF ACA 0.751ct G VS2, 5.85x5.87mm, $3,682 USD
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3978029.htm

WF ACA 0.734ct F VS2, 5.77x5.80mm, $3,859 USD
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4019088.htm

WF ACA 0.718ct D VS2, 5.74x5.76mm, $4,053 USD
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4019079.htm

Brian Gavin Diamonds:
BGD Signature 0.712ct D SI1, 5.76x5.78mm, $3,918 USD
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/0.712-d-si1-round-diamond-ags-104090535069

BlueNile @ UK:
BN GIA XXX 0.75ct F VS2, 5.86x5.85mm, ~$4,075 USD (3,168 GBP)
https://www.bluenile.com/uk/diamond-details/LD10909547

BN GIA XXX 0.71ct G VVS1, 5.71x5.67mm, ~$3,745 USD (2,911 GBP)
https://www.bluenile.com/uk/diamond-details/LD10653164

BN GIA XXX 0.70ct G VS2, 5.70x5.68mm, ~$3,317 USD (2,579 GBP)
https://www.bluenile.com/uk/diamond-details/LD10904126

Many thanks for all of this @sledge - it's very much appreciated

sledge · Aug 23, 2018

Mikeeb123 said:
Many thanks for all of this @sledge - it's very much appreciated

You're absolutely welcome. It's really been fun helping you on this one. I see your other thread, and that you narrowed it down to several HPD/CBI stones, some which I recommended -- except, through the London CBI rep.

I am so freakin' happy for you guys. Knowing where you started out, I cannot wait to see both you and your girl be blown away by the difference in cut quality! I absolutely expect some pictures in one of your threads.

You have really done well in handling this whole insurance thing, and then picking a killer diamond to replace what was lost. Job very well done.

One last bit of info I might leave for you -- please be sure to get the new stone & ring evaluated so you can properly insure it. Make sure that there is SPECIFIC verbiage about it being a CBI super ideal with AGS 000 certification, listing the specific table size and crown/pavilion angle combo. Basically, make it as detailed as possible so if ever lost, there is ZERO dispute about the replacement. IMO, a GIA XXX of similar proportions or non-branded AGS 000 of similar proportions is NOT the same. CBI utilizes proprietary cutting techniques to enhance the beauty of their stones, and that is special and more costly than other similar AGS 000 stones that aren't branded the same.

WinkHPD · Aug 23, 2018

Excellent thought about proper identification Sledge. Listing the specific table size and angle combos is actually not as important as identifying the diamond as a Crafted by Infinity Diamond and this can be done by including a copy of the AGS Proprietary Light Performance Diamond Quality Document which will have the Crafted by Infinity Logo just above the diamond diagram on the report. A copy of the report puts all of the information at the adjuster's fingertips should anything ever happen to the diamond.

Wink

WinkHPD · Aug 23, 2018

Oh, for what it is worth, the AGS reports on the net look much worse than they do in real life. Here is a screen shot of the report for a diamond as shown on the Internet.

Grading report 9073 internet version.jpg

Here is the actual report that came with the diamond from Crafted by Infinity.

You can see the dramatic difference in the diagram.

Wink

sledge · Aug 23, 2018

Thanks for the clarification @Wink, much appreciated.

Especially on the cert issue. This exact issues (no CBI logo on web version) got brought up in his other thread. It appears to be a web version issue only that doesn't have the logo, and the actual does. Glad to hear that.

Texas Leaguer · Aug 23, 2018

sledge said:
Not sure I fully agree with this. At the end of the day, each of us that have policies pay a premium for the insurance company to take the risk of replacement. By offering the policy, the insurance company proclaims it understands the risk, has the expertise to manage the potential risk and then uses some very smart nerds, called statisticians, to develop complex formulas that accounts for a wide array of risk factors.

Here's what bothers me. Let's just pretend the customer pays for a $5,000 policy. The insurance company bases the premium on $5,000 of loss risk. An event occurs. All parties are aware that a payout of some magnitude will be paid. To be clear, the insurance company has/will collect premiums based on a $5,000 loss. And we know the basic formula for the insurance company's profit margin is: premiums - expenses - losses = gross profit margin.

Paying out only $3,500 for a $5,000 policy reduces losses, which has a net effect of increasing the insurance company's profit margin. That's a good deal for them. But what happens if a "like equivalent" would cost $7,500? Then the insurance company then states there is a $5,000 cap on the policy limit and that is all they are responsible to insure and they offer a cash payout.

So when the payout favors the customer, they cut losses to policy limits. And when that doesn't happen, they get the luxury of playing jeweler (in this scenario) and offer a $3,500 replacement so they can minimize loss and boost profit margins.

Imagine a world where at the WORST case scenario the most risk you have to take is to do exactly what you said for the exact dollars you promised. Best case scenario is you don't have to pay out the maximum dollars you promised, and instead can negotiate a lower payout rate; therefore, increasing your profit margins.

And we wonder why there are so many insurance companies.

As far as fraudulent cases. Yes, they occur. But also, insurance companies can and do drop insureds who show a high risk potential because of claim quantity, high dollar risk, location sensitive areas, etc. Or they charged higher premiums for the higher risk.

Great to see @Mikeeb123 has received the ususal generous and knowledgeable support of the pricescope community and is on his way to a great outcome.

Just a couple of comments in the general discussion of personal jewelry insurance, and this mainly from my experience seeing how Jewelers Mutual settles claims on their standard policies.

First, it is my sense that the insurance business model is based on actuarial calculations of accounts that have claims vs. those that never have a claim. I do not think they are looking to make money in their process of supplying replacements.

Jewelers Mutual refers the insured back to the original jeweler to supply the replacement and gives the jeweler a fair fee schedule (profit margin), the parameters of the original diamond, and the limit of the policy.

If the original jeweler is not available or is unable to supply, JM will look to other jewelers in their network. Proposed replacements must be approved by the insured. If none can be found and insured cannot be satisfied with replacement, JM will make a payout up to the policy limit to settle the claim.

Normally, if the appraisal is done well, contains sufficient detail, and is not overly inflated or undervalued, a replacement can be executed smoothly if the insured is reasonable. In so doing, the insured will get whole, the jeweler will make a profit, and JM will settle the claim within policy limits. With a fair margin to the jeweler on top of the cost of the diamond, JM is normally not settling the claim for much less than the policy limits, especially considering their handling costs of the claim.

Basically, they look at claims settlement as customer service, protecting their good name in an industry that revolves heavily around trust and good will. Because they don’t have a real profit margin in these cases, if they run into resistance with the insured, they are more likely than not to just cash out the policy limit.

LoveWins · Aug 31, 2018

sledge said:
I understand your concerns @Mikeeb123.

To be clear, I would have ZERO qualms working with HPD, WF or BGD on international shipments. All three ship internationally using Fed-Ex services and know what they are doing. You should be looking at a 2-3 day delivery. If something is not to your liking, you can return as well.

These 3 vendors are seriously some of the best you will find. Two of them, HPD & WF, actively participate in these forums. BGD doesn't but I do know they read as Lesley would occasionally utilize my PS username when I would call her. Truly, they care about their customers, take great pride in their products and want you to have a phenomenal experience. In fact, the owner of HPD, @Wink, was talking about a get together for PS forum members and was talking about inviting people back to his house to grill out on his Traegar.

You will be hard pressed to find such good service, and awesome diamonds elsewhere. So while I understand your concerns, I also want you to know that should you choose to take this "risk" it's really not very risky at all.

Below are all 3 vendors policies on international shipping:

https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/free-shipping/
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-shipping
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/policies#ship-page-cont

I must say to date and my experience still continues that HPD is honest and ethical. They truly love what they do and it shows through their integrity. @Wink is truly a rarity.

Is our insurance company being fair?

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