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Is it worth lowering color and size to buy a true heart/arrows cut?

speedstickman

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My budget is between 7000 and 8000... and I have to make a purchase asap but im stuck because there are so many variables!

I had picked out a GIA XXX 1.5ct J VS1 diamond from Adiamor... but I came across diamonds from Victor Canera & White Flash that are true Hearts/Arrows...although they are a bit smaller (1.4ct and lower color (K)

And now I have no idea which one to go for. They are all similar in price , and the setting will be yellow gold...

I feel like J is already on the yellow side, do you think it's worth to lower the color to K to get the quality cut of the hearts/arrows?

Thank you!
 

free-user

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Its all personal. To me a "perfect" h&a is highly preferred but most of what I have in hand are close to perfect hearts and arrow symmetry. I value best bang for the buck.

If I were you I would drop to si1 or even si2 to stay in carat weight or find a Supreme cut in the lower carat with a bigger spread...makes the diamond look bigger. If you drop in clarity you may even be able to go I color.

Many vendors offer second hand imaging upon request. Its harder now to get due to covid but its possible still.
 

free-user

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I just checked some good to excellent choices for you. These are all better than the ones you picked.

 
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headlight

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Definitely as @free-user said go to an SI clarity to get more bang for your buck!
 

LIGemzGal

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I personally prefer H&A stones. The fire and brilliance are, in my opinion, unrivaled. Keep in mind that also that if you go down in color you can also opt for some florescence in the stone. Some fluorescence can make a more colored (I/J/K) stone appear whiter to the eye. In those instances, choosing a more colored stone with flyorescence can save you some $$$, so you can perhaps get a larger stone.
 

nala

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Here is my take. I don’t own a super ideal. In fact, my 2.90 E Si1 scores a 3.4 on hca. And I never had owned a super ideal. But I had access to my sister’s 1.94 I vs2 and got a chance to compare them. I’m glad that I did. Bc here is what I learned. I used to own an I with hca under 2. And either I took the fire and brilliance for granted, or at some point my eyes started disliking the warm tint. To the point that I upgraded. I figured that i would not notice the ACA I tint but yes. The day was gloomy. Then I tried indoors as well. And lighting sucked. So the only thing that I could observe was not how much more her aca sparkles or fired up in comparison to mine—bc given mediocre lighting—it was the same—but what jumped out was the tint and the size. Not fair to compare a 2.90 to 1.94 I know! But I didn’t expect for mine to look that much bigger! I’m bad with sizes so I expected a minute difference. So back to my finding. My diamond will spend more time in bad lighting than optimal lighting for fire. And what will I admire the most? My size and color and clarity. Hope this helps. Ymmv.
 

headlight

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@nala I so appreciate your post. To piggy back on that... I have my ring 2.31 Brian Gavin Signature branded H&A, AGS000, VVS2, H color, and I also have my ring 2.01 GIA 3X SI2, E color with a 63% depth (altho still 1.6 HCA, excellents all except for size), both set in the exact same mounting. And which one do I put on everyday? The smaller one with the “not PS-worthy GIA 3X” specs. Why? Because the E color kicks the H color’s ass and clearly there just isn’t enough difference from the super ideal to overcome the H from the E. So yes, I always go for my smaller 3X “undesirable” SI2, E over my larger super ideal VVS2, H. Don’t get me wrong... the BGD is spectacular... my point is with regard to the power of the color (for me). The colorless element brings with it a level of brightness above and beyond, IMO, of that is provided by the super ideal cut.
 

LIGemzGal

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I get that diamond color is a preference for some and an acceptance for others. Although I prefer the whitest diamonds I can afford, it's based on exactly that---what I can afford. If I have to sacrifice color and clarity for size then I won't do it. And I don't want to have to jump through hoops to make a diamond "appear" as white as my preference if it's not. Because at the end of the day I still know that I didn't get what I wanted and quite frankly, I won't be happy. I always figure that if I'm going to spend me or my husband's hard earned money (and believe me when I tell you it's hard earned!), then I'm going to get exactly what I want. I'm in the camp of diamond lovers who would rather have a whiter and cleaner diamond than a larger more included diamond (if there is such a camp). I prefer the sparkle, fire and flashes that H&A cuts emit so that's my preference. Now yes, you can get a lot of fire and sparkle out of very ideal cut diamonds that are not true H&A but their stats are very close to H&A but they just didn't make the grade. You just have to be diligent when looking at those stats and making that determination if you like what that stone exhibits and offers. I personally try to go for D/E/F H&A's that are IF/VVS and I will opt for a smaller stone so that I stay in my budget and get those specific parameters. The optics that the smaller stone brings to the table more than make up for the size. I always feel like quality trumps quantity so being a visual person, I'd rather have a high quality smaller stone than a "meh" quality larger stone. Size never impressed me, quality always won me over. I want the sparkle factor, I want the whiteness and I want less inclusions. I do understand some people want a larger stone at all costs. Totally get it. Which is why I mentioned things like flourescence in my post above as a trade off to save money and get a larger stone if a lower color is not a factor for them. You can still have the H&A stone for fire, but perhaps a lower color combined with some flourescence (or perhaps no flouro at all) can get it for you at a not so crazy price point. There are many tradeoffs you can make when it comes to diamonds. You just have to figure out what you're willing to accept and most of all, what you really want.
 
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daisygrl

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The color is very subjective. When comparing G and H, you are not going to see much difference (if any) when mounted, Colors are graded under a special lightning and in a controlled environment using a master diamond. It is a mental thing for some knowing they have a while diamond. Will anyone else notice? Unless comparing E with I and up close and personal, no. 8-)

I have owned two close to super-ideal diamonds and one super-ideal. I would not go back to the "close" ones. I love knowing I have best of the best because if I did not, I would study my diamond until the world got flat only to find that one dark spot/leakage... Plus, I believe the super-ideal does hide/mask a color by its sparkle and fire. I do not like paying for something I cannot see. I see sparkle and I will pay for it. I see/cannot tolerate I color and down (ok with H) but I will not pay for an E. I'd rather spend money on a size. Everyone will see a size and a sparkle.
 

whitewave

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This is my HPD/CBI 1.09 K.

The thing about white flash and I’m not sure about Victor, is you can try them out and see how you like the color. They are going to have better customer service....
 

LIGemzGal

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AAAEE120-ED7E-43FC-8A06-80500A116547.jpeg

This is my HPD/CBI 1.09 K.

The thing about white flash and I’m not sure about Victor, is you can try them out and see how you like the color. They are going to have better customer service....

The color is very subjective. When comparing G and H, you are not going to see much difference (if any) when mounted, Colors are graded under a special lightning and in a controlled environment using a master diamond. It is a mental thing for some knowing they have a while diamond. Will anyone else notice? Unless comparing E with I and up close and personal, no. 8-)

I have owned two close to super-ideal diamonds and one super-ideal. I would not go back to the "close" ones. I love knowing I have best of the best because if I did not, I would study my diamond until the world got flat only to find that one dark spot/leakage... Plus, I believe the super-ideal does hide/mask a color by its sparkle and fire. I do not like paying for something I cannot see. I see sparkle and I will pay for it. I see/cannot tolerate I color and down (ok with H) but I will not pay for an E. I'd rather spend money on a size. Everyone will see a size and a sparkle.

I absolutely agree with you in that color is subjective. But H&A is really about the cut, the angles, etc, not the color. Because of the optics associated with having an ideal cut diamond,, it makes a smaller diamond with more color appear larger and brighter thus I think making it better choice if you choose to go down on the color spectrum. For some color is also important in addition to cut. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to have both. So long as in the end you're happy with whatever you chose.!
 

free-user

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I absolutely agree with you in that color is subjective. But H&A is really about the cut, the angles, etc, not the color.

I second that. I have had many perfect H&A in RB and i cant see much difference once most are set in a setting color-wise unless viewing from the side...
 

daisygrl

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I absolutely agree with you in that color is subjective. But H&A is really about the cut, the angles, etc, not the color. Because of the optics associated with having an ideal cut diamond,, it makes a smaller diamond with more color appear larger and brighter thus I think making it better choice if you choose to go down on the color spectrum. For some color is also important in addition to cut. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to have both. So long as in the end you're happy with whatever you chose.!

I am well aware that the super-ideals are about cut, symmetry, and angles. However, because of the amount of sparkle and fire super-ideal diamonds provide, people pay attention to these two factors and the color becomes subordinate. Moreover, many will agree that the perfection of the cut will mask/hide the color. That is all I said. Never have I argued what the super-ideals are about.
 
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LIGemzGal

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I am well aware that the super-ideals are about cut, symmetry, and angles. However, because of the amount of sparkle and fire super-ideal diamonds provide, people pay attention to these two and the color become subordinate. However, many will agree that the perfection of the cut will mask/hide the color. That is all I said. Never have I argued what the super-ideals are about.

Oy. Please know that I wasn't trying to offend. I just actually remembered in that moment what super-ideal was all about and had to back track myself. I felt I got off track with my post when I went on about color. Sorry you took it that way.
 

nala

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The color is very subjective. When comparing G and H, you are not going to see much difference (if any) when mounted, Colors are graded under a special lightning and in a controlled environment using a master diamond. It is a mental thing for some knowing they have a while diamond. Will anyone else notice? Unless comparing E with I and up close and personal, no. 8-)

I have owned two close to super-ideal diamonds and one super-ideal. I would not go back to the "close" ones. I love knowing I have best of the best because if I did not, I would study my diamond until the world got flat only to find that one dark spot/leakage... Plus, I believe the super-ideal does hide/mask a color by its sparkle and fire. I do not like paying for something I cannot see. I see sparkle and I will pay for it. I see/cannot tolerate I color and down (ok with H) but I will not pay for an E. I'd rather spend money on a size. Everyone will see a size and a sparkle.

I can’t help but infer that you are referring to my post. Here’s the thing—I wear my stone for me. And I look at it every waking moment that I have free time. I scrutinize it. And I do notice the difference between and e and an I bc I didn’t like the I—it made ME feel dissatisfied. I don’t care what other perceive as you assume all people will only see size and sparkle. Guess what? Mine still sparkles and has size. The E color was a happy bonus and I prob paid as much for my e as I would have for an H. with the same stats bc it has flourescence! Win win! I think that as person who was obsessed with super ideals and reading all they hype all these years, the reality is that cut difference when comparing triple excellent and super ideals is just as discernable as any of the other 4. iOw, go with what you value bc only you will see it every minute of the day and you will know what nags you about it.
 

daisygrl

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I can’t help but infer that you are referring to my post. Here’s the thing—I wear my stone for me. And I look at it every waking moment that I have free time. I scrutinize it. And I do notice the difference between and e and an I bc I didn’t like the I—it made ME feel dissatisfied. I don’t care what other perceive as you assume all people will only see size and sparkle. Guess what? Mine still sparkles and has size. The E color was a happy bonus and I prob paid as much for my e as I would have for an H. with the same stats bc it has flourescence! Win win! I think that as person who was obsessed with super ideals and reading all they hype all these years, the reality is that cut difference when comparing triple excellent and super ideals is just as discernable as any of the other 4. iOw, go with what you value bc only you will see it every minute of the day and you will know what nags you about it.

I have never said "all people". That is over-generalizing. I do not do that. Likewise, when you said "mine still sparkles and has size" - I was not referring to your specific diamond.I was not attacking your E diamond. I was talking about MY experience with two non-super ideals I used to own and MY super-ideal I have now and comparison between them, MY preference, and what people (not all people - those are your words) are likely to see: sparkle and size. When talking about super-ideals, we are talking about maximum of the sparkle, best of the best, not just sparkle. Now, back to the original intent of the OP post and why I wrote my initial response.
 
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nala

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I have never said "all people". That is over-generalizing. I do not do that. Likewise, when you said "mine still sparkles and has size" - I was not referring to your specific diamond.I was not attacking your E diamond. I was talking about MY experience with two non-super ideals I used to own and MY super-ideal I have now and comparison between them, MY preference, and what people (not all people - those are your words) are likely to see: sparkle and size. When talking about super-ideals, we are talking about maximum of the sparkle, best of the best, not just sparkle. Now, back to the original intent of the OP post and why I wrote my initial response.

You bet! But if you aren’t talking about my post, please don’t use my examples in your argument. Subtlety is an art form.
 

nala

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I am well aware that the super-ideals are about cut, symmetry, and angles. However, because of the amount of sparkle and fire super-ideal diamonds provide, people pay attention to these two factors and the color becomes subordinate. Moreover, many will agree that the perfection of the cut will mask/hide the color. That is all I said. Never have I argued what the super-ideals are about.

Many will also disagree that cut masks color. You are not the authority on what “people pay attention to” and what becomes “subordinate” to others. And that’s my point—OP should base their choice on their preference, not on what YOU deem others to “pay attention to.”
 

Big Fat Facets

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diamond color in white diamonds is HIGHLY, HIGHLY personal. you ask ten people and you will get ten different points of view based on their own special set of circumstances. on a good day those ten opinions may, overlap a smidge.

it sounds like you might be a the start of your diamond selection journey, so the opinions of the more experienced might offer some reassurance. i completely understand. after all that is said and done, only your preferences matter as you will be the one wearing the diamond you selected. (unless it is for your intended)

my opinion is that tint is tint. tint is present in the diamond material. you either see it or you don't. if you see it, do you mind it?? some don't see it at all while others are extremely color sensitive. of those that see it some mind and others absolutely adore the warmth and play to it with 18k yellow or rose gold settings

cut is the determining factor in overall edge to edge brightness and fire, the colored flashes that enchant. some swear by the super ideal branded round brilliants others find a gia xxx to be perfect for them. either way, those stones are at the highest upper echelon of cut

(for the sake of brevity i will leave out clarity and carat weight as these two factors do not seem to be your concern)

are you able to look at these j color and k color diamonds side by side, at least in a video clip??

if you are unsure and under a certain time frame to make your selection, acquiring your diamond from a vendor or business that offers easy trade in/trade up is most advantageous to you. because if you make your selection and after living with it for awhile, you decide you cannot handle the tint you have the option of going back to the vendor to select a stone of a higher color ...

additionally, if you end up selecting a diamond that is not at your ideal carat weight, you can likewise go back to the vendor to trade up to your desired carat weight when that time comes

of the three vendors you mention, i understand whiteflash has the best policy in that regard

i will say that actually living with a diamond is important in learning about your preferences

best of luck and i do hope you can have some fun in the process
 
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LLJsmom

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This is only my own experience and what I’ve learned about myself.
when I bought my first significant MRB I went with a GIA 3x F so I could get a bigger size. Under 2 HCA and within PS parameters. Very pretty stone. I thought I would not notice the less than super ideal Cut. After wearing it for 2-3 years I started to notice it. In certain lighting it was great. But more often than not I was in less than ideal conditions and I saw the leakage. I was surprised I did. And it really bothered me. Even the brightness of an F did not compensate for the leakage. I guess I am that anal. Then I fell in love with old cuts and loved the sparkle. I traded the MRB for a K OEC. A K OEC was more acceptable than the F MRB. I have been wearing it for about 4 years and as lively as it is, I discovered that I miss the bright whiteness of a high color. I discovered I am very color sensitive with MRBs. So anyway, my point is I now want both. Super ideal cut and high color. So guess what needs to give? Size. Anyhoo, that’s just me but it took me 8 years and a lot of money to figure this out. Good luck. Whatever you choose, get one that has a great return and upgrade policy.
 

xxxxxx

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This is only my own experience and what I’ve learned about myself.
when I bought my first significant MRB I went with a GIA 3x F so I could get a bigger size. Under 2 HCA and within PS parameters. Very pretty stone. I thought I would not notice the less than super ideal Cut. After wearing it for 2-3 years I started to notice it. In certain lighting it was great. But more often than not I was in less than ideal conditions and I saw the leakage. I was surprised I did. And it really bothered me. Even the brightness of an F did not compensate for the leakage. I guess I am that anal. Then I fell in love with old cuts and loved the sparkle. I traded the MRB for a K OEC. A K OEC was more acceptable than the F MRB. I have been wearing it for about 4 years and as lively as it is, I discovered that I miss the bright whiteness of a high color. I discovered I am very color sensitive with MRBs. So anyway, my point is I now want both. Super ideal cut and high color. So guess what needs to give? Size. Anyhoo, that’s just me but it took me 8 years and a lot of money to figure this out. Good luck. Whatever you choose, get one that has a great return and upgrade policy.
I hope this short thread jack is okay. Do you now want an “ideal cut” DEF OEC or MRB? (:
 

dk168

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I am not in the market for another mined diamond, and if I were, I would be looking for an OEC.

For old cuts like OEC, a wonky one as in not an ideal cut with uneven facets in lower/warmer colour often looks more interesting than a modern ideal and higher colour equivalent.

If I were to get a MRB, then yes to the best cut, and am prepared to go for a lower colour like G/H and VS/SI clarity (my mind-clean) for the biggest carat weight.

Personal preferences and all that, as everyone's "mind clean" is different.

DK :))
 

Mlh

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This is only my own experience and what I’ve learned about myself.
when I bought my first significant MRB I went with a GIA 3x F so I could get a bigger size. Under 2 HCA and within PS parameters. Very pretty stone. I thought I would not notice the less than super ideal Cut. After wearing it for 2-3 years I started to notice it. In certain lighting it was great. But more often than not I was in less than ideal conditions and I saw the leakage. I was surprised I did. And it really bothered me. Even the brightness of an F did not compensate for the leakage. I guess I am that anal. Then I fell in love with old cuts and loved the sparkle. I traded the MRB for a K OEC. A K OEC was more acceptable than the F MRB. I have been wearing it for about 4 years and as lively as it is, I discovered that I miss the bright whiteness of a high color. I discovered I am very color sensitive with MRBs. So anyway, my point is I now want both. Super ideal cut and high color. So guess what needs to give? Size. Anyhoo, that’s just me but it took me 8 years and a lot of money to figure this out. Good luck. Whatever you choose, get one that has a great return and upgrade policy.

Hi @LLJsmom, would you mind elaborating more on seeing the leakage in your F stone? What does leakage look like in real life? What were you noticing? Thank you in advance.
 

nala

Ideal_Rock
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This is only my own experience and what I’ve learned about myself.
when I bought my first significant MRB I went with a GIA 3x F so I could get a bigger size. Under 2 HCA and within PS parameters. Very pretty stone. I thought I would not notice the less than super ideal Cut. After wearing it for 2-3 years I started to notice it. In certain lighting it was great. But more often than not I was in less than ideal conditions and I saw the leakage. I was surprised I did. And it really bothered me. Even the brightness of an F did not compensate for the leakage. I guess I am that anal. Then I fell in love with old cuts and loved the sparkle. I traded the MRB for a K OEC. A K OEC was more acceptable than the F MRB. I have been wearing it for about 4 years and as lively as it is, I discovered that I miss the bright whiteness of a high color. I discovered I am very color sensitive with MRBs. So anyway, my point is I now want both. Super ideal cut and high color. So guess what needs to give? Size. Anyhoo, that’s just me but it took me 8 years and a lot of money to figure this out. Good luck. Whatever you choose, get one that has a great return and upgrade policy.

I want to highlight your post because I think the key is that it took you 8 years to figure out your preference! I hear you!! And that is great advice—upgrade policy—because not only does our knowledge about diamonds change, but also our eyesight! And specific characteristics that you were ok with at the start can start to bother you. Sometimes it takes months but can even be years. Doing your research here on PS is your first step. Acquiring your own preference And accepting it is the longer process. Good luck OP.
 

whitewave

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I do think I don’t mind my K because it’s in white gold where the rhodium has worn off, so it’s whellow gold.
 

LIGemzGal

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Thiis entire thread really does bring home the point that selection of diamond color really is a personal preference. We all have our preferences. I certainly respect people who want a more colored stone for their own reasons and I hope they respect that others who want a whiter stone for their reasons. It seems like most are happy with whatever stone they chose whether it was D/E or H/I. I think that's really all that matters.
 

Estrella185

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I think if you’re going to go lower in color to a J or K all other specs should be excellent/ideal. I just got my upgrade and it’s K in color but Excellent on all other counts. In the J/K color range you WILL see color ... maybe not the most when faced up but certainly from the side view and tilted. I don’t mind the color, as I believe it’s shows a little character and uniqueness. I was only able to stay within budget and get the carat size I wanted by going lower in color and not compromising on any other of the 4 cs. I suggest you try to see the warmer colors in person to see if it truly bothers you. I hope you find what you’re looking for =)2
 

LLJsmom

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Hi @LLJsmom, would you mind elaborating more on seeing the leakage in your F stone? What does leakage look like in real life? What were you noticing? Thank you in advance.

Will try to keep this short.
The edges weren't as bright as other parts of the diamond in certain lighting. I thought that was normal, but I still didn't like it. Turns out it doesn't have to be normal. Better cut and super ideal stones don't seem to have that problem. Resulting in those stones actually looking bigger to me. Tiny slivers in the center didn't seem to light up in certain lighting. Thought that was normal too, and it still annoyed me. Super ideal does not have that issue (at least not to me).
 

marymm

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My budget is between 7000 and 8000... and I have to make a purchase asap but im stuck because there are so many variables!

I had picked out a GIA XXX 1.5ct J VS1 diamond from Adiamor... but I came across diamonds from Victor Canera & White Flash that are true Hearts/Arrows...although they are a bit smaller (1.4ct and lower color (K)

And now I have no idea which one to go for. They are all similar in price , and the setting will be yellow gold...

I feel like J is already on the yellow side, do you think it's worth to lower the color to K to get the quality cut of the hearts/arrows?

Thank you!

In my view, if you're okay with a GIA XXX J color diamond, going to a K super-ideal diamond shouldn't present any color issues unless the J was a very high J and the K is a very low K.

If you were talking going from a G or higher GIA XXX diamond to a superideal K, then, yes, the K color would be noticeably warmer.
 
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