Is it okay to publicly shame people into voting?

[telephone89]

Jambalaya,

My mistake; the correct term is 'spoiled vote'.
A spoiled ballot is something different.

But, yes, some people will spoil their vote by marking nothing at all, marking all choices, or some other act that does not clearly indicate the selection of one candidate.

Per Wikipedia: "The total number of spoilt votes in a United States election has been called the residual vote. In Australia, such votes are generally referred to as informal votes, and in Canada they are referred to as rejected votes."

In Canada, some provinces (Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta) legislation pertaining to provincial elections allow a ballot to be refused on the grounds that no party satisfies the elector's vote. However, the process is that the voter takes the ballot from the official and then hand it back. I'd never heard of this option before, however, its been criticized due to the action taking place in front of other voters and officials, and therefore it is not private. Some argue that there should be a 'None of the Above' option on the ballot.

There is no similar legislation pertaining to federal elections. However, during the 2000 Canadian federal election, a number of voters (chiefly in Edmonton, Alberta) ate their ballots, as part of what they dubbed the Edible Ballot Society, to protest what they saw as inherently unfair elections. The stunt led Elections Canada to propose that there be legislation allowing federal ballots to be officially refused.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, ends our history lesson and threadjack of the evening!

Haha that reminds me - in the last election, my SO wanted to write 'Nice hair tho' on the ballot instead of voting for anyone.

I mean, he does have nice hair

 

[Dee*Jay]

While I do not believe it is OK to publicly shame people into voting, I believe that is even worse to try shame someone into voting for a particular party that they usually wouldn't vote for. That's a failure of democracy and unfortunately it's something I see a lot of here in Australia.

I'm not talking about supporters of a party handing out information about policies and promises etc; I am talking about those people who would call an acquaintance, friend or family member some kind of derogatory name or make them feel terrible for wanting to vote for a particular politician or political party and subsequently advise who the person should vote for i.e. their own preferred political party.

If you publicly shame me into voting for a certain political party then it's not democracy, but if I am shamed into the voting process when I don't want to then I can always draw huge cartoons of boobs and penises on the voting ballot (it's a metaphor ) and enter a dummy vote for the same result as though I were not voting.

P.s. this may seem silly to ask but voting in the U.S. is anonymous - yes?

This is a bit tangential, but I thought of it immediately when this thread came up will use Jordy's post as a springboard!

In Chicago we always seem to be on the edge of a teacher strike. A few of the CB's nieces are teachers and that when they cast votes their union representative stands literally right beside them and views their votes. In the last vote a few weeks ago the CB asked one of his nieces if she had cast her ballot for a strike and she said she HAD to the way the union is run with these "representatives" a mere inches away looking at the ballots. Otherwise there are "repercussions" which are not discussed but very real (i.e., a specific job is magically eliminated while all others go untouched). And not voting at all is also not an option because you are on a list and the unions make sure each and every person on that list gets in the voting booth. Absolutely criminal, in my (completely unsolicited) opinion!

Whew -- had to get that out! Sorry; not back to our regularly scheduled programming!

 

[december-fire]

"In Chicago we always seem to be on the edge of a teacher strike. A few of the CB's nieces are teachers and that when they cast votes their union representative stands literally right beside them and views their votes. In the last vote a few weeks ago the CB asked one of his nieces if she had cast her ballot for a strike and she said she HAD to the way the union is run with these "representatives" a mere inches away looking at the ballots. Otherwise there are "repercussions" which are not discussed but very real (i.e., a specific job is magically eliminated while all others go untouched). And not voting at all is also not an option because you are on a list and the unions make sure each and every person on that list gets in the voting booth. Absolutely criminal, in my (completely unsolicited) opinion!"

Dee*Jay, that has to be reported to the election officials! And the media!

 

[december-fire]

Haha that reminds me - in the last election, my SO wanted to write 'Nice hair tho' on the ballot instead of voting for anyone.

I mean, he does have nice hair

Telephone,

You must be in Canada!

Yes, he has nice hair.

But he thinks "The Budget will balance itself."

And I swear he thinks all it takes to lead a country is a smile and 'Hug it out, Folks!' attitude.

And don't get me started on his father, may he rest in peace, but thanks a lot for screwing up my beloved country.

If you lovely people in the US want him, I'll gladly pay the one-way air fare!

OK, I don't want to get into a political discussion, so I'll go back to the 'Show Me Your Furbabies' thread and do some deep breathing exercises.

Or have some ice cream. Yes, that should work!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

It is not okay to shame people into anything.

Well I might be OK with shaming them into picking up their litter that they throw on the ground or picking up their animal poop they leave on the sidewalk. I'm OK with that kind of shaming. After asking nicely first to please pick up after themselves. But not shaming about voting and other things that are none of my business.

I am against all shame. Enforcing rules/laws (ie tickets) is very different than shaming.

If I see someone throwing litter on the ground purposefully I will ask them politely to please pick it up. If there are other people around they may be (or more likely not be if they are the type to litter) embarrassed. I don't embarrass them on purpose but I also don't just let people litter or not pick up after their dog if I see it happening. So no matter if there are lots of people around or no one if I see something like that I am going to say something to that person. I don't do it with the intention of shaming but if it helps stop their illegal and impolite and inconsiderate behavior in the future so be it. I am always polite about it because I believe manners are underrated in the USA and even if someone else is behaving rudely I always behave politely.

Can you shame someone politely? I think we may have a different definition of the term.

 

[Dee*Jay]

"In Chicago we always seem to be on the edge of a teacher strike. A few of the CB's nieces are teachers and that when they cast votes their union representative stands literally right beside them and views their votes. In the last vote a few weeks ago the CB asked one of his nieces if she had cast her ballot for a strike and she said she HAD to the way the union is run with these "representatives" a mere inches away looking at the ballots. Otherwise there are "repercussions" which are not discussed but very real (i.e., a specific job is magically eliminated while all others go untouched). And not voting at all is also not an option because you are on a list and the unions make sure each and every person on that list gets in the voting booth. Absolutely criminal, in my (completely unsolicited) opinion!"

Dee*Jay, that has to be reported to the election officials! And the media!

December, trust me, this is not an unknown fact. But someone would have to come forward and be publically named, and that would result in an absolute job loss, or more likely a situation so miserable for the person that they would at some point quit. The state of affairs in Chicago, and Illinois in general, is so bad that I actually looked at property in Wisconsin a few weeks ago. Believe me, if there were a way to make that work logistically I'd be north of the border SO fast!

 

[Matata]

If you lovely people in the US want him, I'll gladly pay the one-way air fare!

We'll trade him for Donald Frump who definitely does not have nice hair

 

[missy]

It is not okay to shame people into anything.

Well I might be OK with shaming them into picking up their litter that they throw on the ground or picking up their animal poop they leave on the sidewalk. I'm OK with that kind of shaming. After asking nicely first to please pick up after themselves. But not shaming about voting and other things that are none of my business.

I am against all shame. Enforcing rules/laws (ie tickets) is very different than shaming.

If I see someone throwing litter on the ground purposefully I will ask them politely to please pick it up. If there are other people around they may be (or more likely not be if they are the type to litter) embarrassed. I don't embarrass them on purpose but I also don't just let people litter or not pick up after their dog if I see it happening. So no matter if there are lots of people around or no one if I see something like that I am going to say something to that person. I don't do it with the intention of shaming but if it helps stop their illegal and impolite and inconsiderate behavior in the future so be it. I am always polite about it because I believe manners are underrated in the USA and even if someone else is behaving rudely I always behave politely.

Can you shame someone politely? I think we may have a different definition of the term.

Hi Tacori, I think we may have different definitions. I explained mine above. Calling someone out in public qualifies IMO. I think perhaps your definition is more of a public type of announcement and I don't do well re public speaking so that is not something I would touch with a 10 foot pole lol. But if I have to call someone out for bad behavior and there are others around I will and that is what I was qualifying as "public" shaming. Because there are others around coincidentally.

 

[ksinger]

Interesting that a specific has gone off into the general - specific public (although I'm still not seeing the "public" in the original example) shaming to ANY shaming.

I know there is the shame that is toxic and results in mental and emotional problems for a lifetime, but I think the reaction to that has been too far in the other direction, leading to a society that often thinks that all shame is evil. Well, no not really. People who never learned to feel any proper shame for lack of empathy that often comes with feeling zero shame, results in people like Martin Shkreli. Or Donald Trump, who, I think it's safe to say, is lacking in anything resembling shame. Is this the type of person we really want to see? A bunch of narcissists with no shame? And if someone comes back and says this is not about shame, but empathy, I would ask how a person is supposed to feel then, when she fails of her empathy training one day, when she is mean, or ungenerous, or violates whatever she has internalized as her "code of conduct". Is she supposed to feel nothing? She likely will feel nothing if there is no experience with shame.

And I must point out here, that shame is central to the Christianity that the majority of Americans claim is their religion, or did I read the "Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" incorrectly? I know that is guilt, but guilt and shame are close siblings. I'm not sure how anyone could claim one and totally repudiate the other.

I'm not at all for putting people in the stocks and inviting the town to throw rotten vegetables at them, or plastering a big letter "A" on their chests to enforce conformity, but shame has its uses. Avoidance of having to experience it has certainly kept ME on the straight and narrow (as defined by me/my family) and experiencing it whenever I have strayed from my internal "doing the right thing" code, has brought me back. The thought of bringing shame on my mother was a factor in keeping me out of trouble with drugs and early sex. Some would say that shouldn't have been that way, but at the end of the day, I avoided pain for both myself and my family by avoiding shame.

It was a motivator that worked.

 

[missy]

Karen, I hope I am not embarrassing you in any way when I say I always love reading your posts and thoughts. And I agree with what you wrote here but even when I don't agree I still enjoy reading everything you write.

 

[monarch64]

Tacori, I am interested in your thoughts on shaming drunk drivers! I just saw this show up on my FB news sidebar and it reminded me of this thread and your position on shaming (which I do not disagree with--but it's such an interesting topic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb2VXVmUga4

 

[kenny]

Karen, I hope I am not embarrassing you in any way when I say I always love reading your posts and thoughts. And I agree with what you wrote here but even when I don't agree I still enjoy reading everything you write.

+1
Great post Ksinger.
I agree that not all shaming is bad, and today's overly-PC culture has gone overboard.
It depends what a person is being shamed for.

Shame is a big topic for me.
Since I grew up gay in a religious home in the 50s 60s in US midwest I'm pissed I was shamed for something that's not wrong or bad, being gay.
Shame was a tool they tried to use to 'fix' me or reject me.
"Coach, Kenny throws a ball like a girl; we don't want him on our team."
Today my radar is sensitive to BS-shame from society.

Of course shaming someone for real crimes is a healthy social pressure.
For example when I was around 5 or so I was caught stealing a candy bar from a store.
The shame heaped upon me was painful at the time, but that's the last thing I've ever stolen.

While I'm an exceptionally moral/ethical person I do thumb my nose up when society (or PS posters) try to shame me for BS.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Tacori, I am interested in your thoughts on shaming drunk drivers! I just saw this show up on my FB news sidebar and it reminded me of this thread and your position on shaming (which I do not disagree with--but it's such an interesting topic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb2VXVmUga4

I don't love it. Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with driving under the influence (OBVIOUSLY) and see frequently the devastation that comes from the consequences. Perhaps social drinkers will think twice but those with alcohol use disorders will not IMHO. I do not think fear or shame works to promote treatment or change. I do like the add campaign that compares the price of getting a cab vs. getting an OWI.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

It is not okay to shame people into anything.

Well I might be OK with shaming them into picking up their litter that they throw on the ground or picking up their animal poop they leave on the sidewalk. I'm OK with that kind of shaming. After asking nicely first to please pick up after themselves. But not shaming about voting and other things that are none of my business.

I am against all shame. Enforcing rules/laws (ie tickets) is very different than shaming.

If I see someone throwing litter on the ground purposefully I will ask them politely to please pick it up. If there are other people around they may be (or more likely not be if they are the type to litter) embarrassed. I don't embarrass them on purpose but I also don't just let people litter or not pick up after their dog if I see it happening. So no matter if there are lots of people around or no one if I see something like that I am going to say something to that person. I don't do it with the intention of shaming but if it helps stop their illegal and impolite and inconsiderate behavior in the future so be it. I am always polite about it because I believe manners are underrated in the USA and even if someone else is behaving rudely I always behave politely.

Can you shame someone politely? I think we may have a different definition of the term.

Hi Tacori, I think we may have different definitions. I explained mine above. Calling someone out in public qualifies IMO. I think perhaps your definition is more of a public type of announcement and I don't do well re public speaking so that is not something I would touch with a 10 foot pole lol. But if I have to call someone out for bad behavior and there are others around I will and that is what I was qualifying as "public" shaming. Because there are others around coincidentally.

I consider what you are describing is boundary setting NOT shaming. Unless you are aggressive or attack the person's character, I don't consider it "shaming"

 

[ksinger]

Karen, I hope I am not embarrassing you in any way when I say I always love reading your posts and thoughts. And I agree with what you wrote here but even when I don't agree I still enjoy reading everything you write.

+1
Great post Ksinger.
I agree that not all shaming is bad, and today's overly-PC culture has gone overboard.
It depends what a person is being shamed for.

Shame is a big topic for me.
Since I grew up gay in a religious home in the 50s 60s in US midwest I'm pissed I was shamed for something that's not wrong or bad, being gay.
Shame was a tool they tried to use to 'fix' me or reject me.
"Coach, Kenny throws a ball like a girl; we don't want him on our team."
Today my radar is sensitive to BS-shame from society.

Of course shaming someone for real crimes is a healthy social pressure.
For example when I was around 5 or so I was caught stealing a candy bar from a store.
The shame heaped upon me was painful at the time, but that's the last thing I've ever stolen.

While I'm an exceptionally moral/ethical person I do thumb my nose up when society (or PS posters) try to shame me for BS.

Thank you Missy, you're kind as always.

And thank you Kenny. A rose from you is appreciated.