Is anyone following the dumpster fire on IG?

[RRfromR]

i had this happen to me on Etsy. A vendor sold what she advertised as a vintage tourmaline ring. It turned out to be a newly made glass filled ruby. It was extremely obvious when I received the ring! I paid five times what it was worth. I immediately told the vendor the item was not as advertised. The vendor refused to refund the non returnable item, which I bought on the basis of her description. Opening a Dispute with Etsy was humiliating, they sided with her and closed the case even when I showed the ruby flourescing madly and providing scientific paper saying tourmalines don’t flouresce bright pink, ever. I then went to my credit card company and they refunded me the price.

The difference is that hypersparkle immediately offered to accept a return and sent a prepaid label. Then waited 17 days. Customer said nothing like hey I’m busy can you extend the return period, etc. Then seller decided something seemed off and refused the return. Am I missing something? It would seem that hypersparkle might be gracious and accept the return still, even now, but sometimes items are altered, etc. That would be my concern as a vendor, too, lost ability to sell in-transit inventory and possibility of tampered item. I’d still not create a problem, I’d still be gracious and accept the return. I’m not sure what caused Hypersparkle to rant but perhaps it was the insinuation that she is an unreasonable vendor, when in actuality, her actions seem more than reasonable to me as a buyer, especially if her customary policy is no returns at all.

I disagree. Your situation is vastly different, as yours was a misrepresentation. This is selling of counterfeit items, which is a crime.
As a customer, I expect a 30 day return if I buy from a business. There's a reason why the European consumer laws and most of the US too allows for 30 days. My appraiser needs 2 weeks to inspect the item and get back to me, so I'd need 30 days. Did the seller specify that the buyer agreed to the 17 day period? Just sending a label expiring in 17 days is not a notice.
Also, the loss of inventory and delays are expected and planned for. There's a reason why a sound business plan involves insurance, legal rules, and risk management. My gut feeling is that a lot of these IG businesses are run without any of that, and one can't simply expect to flip something at 3, 4 times the cost without incurring any risk or liability. That would be akin to a ponzi scheme.

 

[RRfromR]

There is no statute of limitations on fraud. The buyer can and should do a credit card charge back. Totally different than an ‘I don’t care for it’ return. The seller shouldn’t be selling if they don’t understand this distinction.

+1. I'd also like to add that this is probably a interstate commerce transaction, which is under fed jurisdiction.

 

[LightBright]

+1. I'd also like to add that this is probably a interstate commerce transaction, which is under fed jurisdiction.

This is why I said vendor should be gracious and take the item back, not go on a rant. Vendor doesn’t seem to have communicated returns period in this case. The buyer also waited too long, and 30 days isn’t necessarily standard at all.

Also regarding claims of the item being counterfeit, I don’t know what was said to the buyers. Is a disclaimer that you haven’t had the items authenticated as real, enough? RealReal sells items that are designer, but sometimes I wonder (for example I bought a bracelet that while authentic, had part of it missing, no returns)

I’m not an expert on this, so asking, in the case of reselling presumed authentic designer items that you are not claiming as real, is the onus on the vendor to confirm authenticity? Is it fraud or a mistake to not confirm authenticity before you sell? Maybe lesson is to not sell any designer items and not claim designer origin?

Is it legal to resell any item that you mistook for real when it wasn’t? I’m guessing, no, even when you don’t claim anything.

Another VERY interesting question is claims on antique goods, like vintage/antique Tiffany or Cartier jewelry. I’ve seen so many claims. Or the crazy vintage items where half the antique stones are removed and replaced but the setting is authentic. I don’t know. This is beyond the scope of this thread…

And yes, accept returns. IMO 17 days seems legit fine. It’s a fair return period made after the vendor accepted the return, not after the sale (I’m assuming). And I think vendor should even flex on that, accept return even now. But Buyer has some culpability in this.

 

[RRfromR]

This is why I said vendor should be gracious and take the item back, not go on a rant. Vendor doesn’t seem to have communicated returns period in this case. The buyer also waited too long, and 30 days isn’t necessarily standard at all.

Also regarding claims of the item being counterfeit, I don’t know what was said to the buyers. Is a disclaimer that you haven’t had the items authenticated as real, enough? RealReal sells items that are designer, but sometimes I wonder (for example I bought a bracelet that while authentic, had part of it missing, no returns)

I’m not an expert on this, so asking, in the case of reselling presumed authentic designer items that you are not claiming as real, is the onus on the vendor to confirm authenticity? Is it fraud or a mistake to not confirm authenticity before you sell? Maybe lesson is to not sell any designer items and not claim designer origin?

Is it legal to resell any item that you mistook for real when it wasn’t? I’m guessing, no, even when you don’t claim anything.

Another VERY interesting question is claims on antique goods, like vintage/antique Tiffany or Cartier jewelry. I’ve seen so many claims. Or the crazy vintage items where half the antique stones are removed and replaced but the setting is authentic. I don’t know. This is beyond the scope of this thread…

And yes, accept returns. IMO 17 days seems legit fine. It’s a fair return period made after the vendor accepted the return, not after the sale (I’m assuming). And I think vendor should even flex on that, accept return even now. But Buyer has some culpability in this.

Yes, the onus is on the vendor, as they take title of the item. Title comes with the liability. This is the reason why the serious vendors and pawnshops that deal with luxury brand names have Entrupy for risk mitigation. Your TRR example is different, as the item is indeed authentic but in a poor condition. TRR will take back any items, no questions asked, if the item is mischaracterized.

 

[Lookinagain]

There is no statute of limitations on fraud. The buyer can and should do a credit card charge back. Totally different than an ‘I don’t care for it’ return. The seller shouldn’t be selling if they don’t understand this distinction.

Do you mean with the cc company or to prosecute someone for fraud? I thought in the prosecution context, there is one, at least in most states and federally. Would it typically require intent to defraud? I don't know the law on this and it seems like you may, so I'm just wondering. The seller says she made some kind of disclaimer in the listings (although saying not an expert doesn't really seem like one) so I'm just trying to figure out what the difference is between fraud and mistake.

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

Do you mean with the cc company or to prosecute someone for fraud? I thought in the prosecution context, there is one, at least in most states and federally. Would it typically require intent to defraud? I don't know the law on this and it seems like you may, so I'm just wondering. The seller says she made some kind of disclaimer in the listings (although saying not an expert doesn't really seem like one) so I'm just trying to figure out what the difference is between fraud and mistake.

Fraud and murder have no statute of limitations. I bought a Burma sapphire ring on layaway, sent it to AGL, and it was Madagascar. Vendor didn’t care so I initiated a chargeback on my credit card. Important is what the description/receipt. Credit card sided with me. I could have gone to small claims court and had the same outcome, but credit card chargeback is faster.

 

[RRfromR]

Fraud and murder have no statute of limitations. I bought a Burma sapphire ring on layaway, sent it to AGL, and it was Madagascar. Vendor didn’t care so I initiated a chargeback on my credit card. Important is what the description/receipt. Credit card sided with me. I could have gone to small claims court and had the same outcome, but credit card chargeback is faster.

@Mrsz1ppy same thing happened to me. I was sold no treatment no oil emerald, came back from GIA as F1 and both paypal and credit card closed the claim in my favor, I think 3 months later.

 

[yssie]

The decision to sell something as even potentially authentic - without doing whatever degree of diligence is required to actually have certainty - absolutely boggles my mind.

How is it that I, a private end-consumer, hold myself to higher validation standards than someone who works in the trade?

I don’t care what disclaimers a seller might make re. lack of expertise. Ignorance is not an excuse. Be sure or don’t sell. The rest of this nonsense about a random 17 day revocation is icing on a very sorry cake.

Do better, @hypersparkle.

 

[LightBright]

The decision to sell something as even potentially authentic - without doing whatever degree of diligence is required to actually have certainty - absolutely boggles my mind.

How is it that I, a private end-consumer, hold myself to higher validation standards than someone who works in the trade?

I don’t care what disclaimers a seller might make re. lack of expertise. Ignorance is not an excuse. Be sure or don’t sell. The rest of this nonsense about a random 17 day revocation is icing on a very sorry cake.

Do better, @hypersparkle.

Sincere question:

If I have a Tiffany ring, stamped Tiffany, etc. and I do not say it is Tiffany, but provide photos of the ring in detail.

And I have a “no returns policy” (which I think should never be allowed but it actually -really- exists and is defended by Etsy in my case where I bought a glass filled ruby claimed to be a tourmaline, for example, and EBay has that too.)

And someone buys it. And the piece is not authentic. Then they want to return it.

Does the fact that I sold even a potentially branded piece without mentioning it still trump the stated return policy?

So the selling of branded or potentially branded pieces puts the onus always on the seller?

So my sincere question is, does even the possibility of the piece being branded trump everything else?

Again, I don’t know. What I’m reading here says with modern branded pieces the vendor is required to attempt to validate it and required to have an open ended return period. And that’s required by law.

 

[RRfromR]

Sincere question:

If I have a Tiffany ring, stamped Tiffany, etc. and I do not say it is Tiffany, but provide photos of the ring in detail.

And I have a “no returns policy” (which I think should never be allowed but it actually -really- exists and is defended by Etsy in my case where I bought a glass filled ruby claimed to be a tourmaline, for example, and EBay has that too.)

And someone buys it. And the piece is not authentic. Then they want to return it.

Does the fact that I sold even a potentially branded piece without mentioning it still trump the stated return policy?

So the selling of branded or potentially branded pieces puts the onus always on the seller?

So my sincere question is, does even the possibility of the piece being branded trump everything else?

Again, I don’t know. What I’m reading here says with modern branded pieces the vendor is required to attempt to validate it and required to have an open ended return period. And that’s required by law.

Then you pay for an authentication service, it's that simple. You cannot sell a fake with a designer stamp or proprietary features. It's a trademark infringement.

 

[yssie]

Sincere question:

If I have a Tiffany ring, stamped Tiffany, etc. and I do not say it is Tiffany, but provide photos of the ring in detail.

And I have a “no returns policy” (which I think should never be allowed but it actually -really- exists and is defended by Etsy in my case where I bought a glass filled ruby claimed to be a tourmaline, for example, and EBay has that too.)

And someone buys it. And the piece is not authentic. Then they want to return it.

Does the fact that I sold even a potentially branded piece without mentioning it still trump the stated return policy?

So the selling of branded or potentially branded pieces puts the onus always on the seller?

So my sincere question is, does even the possibility of the piece being branded trump everything else?

Again, I don’t know. What I’m reading here says with modern branded pieces the vendor is required to attempt to validate it and required to have an open ended return period. And that’s required by law.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling a piece without being able to say with certainty that it is, in fact, authentic to whatever brand it claims to be. Ethically, because someone on the other side of your transaction - somewhere down the line - is definitely going to think that it might just be "real". Practically, because if it's not authentic it's counterfeit and that's an IP/trademark violation.

I do generally demand more rigour (in all ways) from someone who makes money as a reseller or tradeperson than a private individual offloading her own pieces, inherited pieces, etc.