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Industry Response to National Tragedy

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 25, 2014
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7,376
agree it is not the time to send a message about XYZ sale or business promotion either. i don't know if people who do email marketing campaigns consider that sometimes they need to take a pause.
The problem with that approach is that so many bad things happen in the world, the pause would be forever.


This is a high-profile case garnering a lot of Press attention (and that is rightly so) but what about the people 'disappearing' in China for their political views and the muslims being 're-educated' in work camps to the 'one party' mindset?

What about the kids labouring in Cobalt mines to supply toxic materials for the luxury electric vehicles we must apparently buy to save the world?

What about the continuing treatment of those seen to be of a lower 'caste' in India?

What about the treatment of LGBTQ+ persons in Russia?

What about Saudi Arabia and Brunei's position on the punishment of criminals, including (in their view) homosexuals?

What about the citizens of the African continent suffering extreme poverty and early death while those in power line their pockets with huge sums gained illegally and also through the sale of rights to their countries' assets to other countries?

What about those committing suicide because the extreme (and arguable unnecessary for the under-60s) response to Coronavirus has plunged them into unrecoverable debt?


Events such as those that triggered this thread quite rightly highlight underlying issues that urgently need to be addressed in what is supposed to be the 'Developed World', and that politicians and the Police and others in positions of power need to realise this is not the 19th century and we simply cannot ignore the fact that people of colour (can we use that phrase?) still seem to be suffering poor life chances and great inequalities half a century on from Martin Luther King...

... but is it the job of business to do anything but concentrate on serving customers' needs equally and without prejudice or judgement?


A phrase I have seen used a lot recently is 'virtue signalling', and I feel we need to be careful that we don't end up in the position that we feel forced to do things because we think others think we should be doing those things.

Displays of emotion / condemnation / support / resistance / etc. should be done wholeheartedly and sincerely, and those who do not feel in the position to do so (for whatever reason - be it personal belief, awareness of potential hypocrisy, or that there is pressure to 'virtue signal') should not be criticised for that IMO.


I really don't understand why the colour of one's skin is even mentioned in what is now the 21st century. Surely we should be seeing people for the person they are inside, not how they look on the outside?

I am pleased to see that kids nowadays (in the UK, at least) are a lot more aware of the need to treat others equally, and it gives me hope for the future. Sadly, until those dinosaurs harbouring fantasies of the slave trade being a 'glorious' period :rolleyes: drop dead and stop spreading their poison to susceptible minds around them, and politicians grow some balls to roll out comprehensive education on the past and the present issues related to skin colour, and then criminalise and punish racism properly if needed, I fear we'll be stuck in this situation for a while yet.
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
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I really don't understand why the colour of one's skin is even mentioned in what is now the 21st century. Surely we should be seeing people for the person they are inside, not how they look on the outside?
Yeah, I was taught that in school and thought it was a noble thing to which to aspire. Apparently I was wrong and miseducated. If you are inclined, watch some of Jane Elliott's you tube videos and interviews. She's a well known anti-racist activist. Turns out that ignoring color is another way to invalidate someone.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Yeah, I was taught that in school and thought it was a noble thing to which to aspire. Apparently I was wrong and miseducated. If you are inclined, watch some of Jane Elliott's you tube videos and interviews. She's a well known anti-racist activist. Turns out that ignoring color is another way to invalidate someone.
I am going to take an immediate guess without watching - is she saying that to ignore a person's colour is to imply that the past is being glossed over and no weight or consideration or acknowledgement is being given to the issues previously faced?

If so, I can most certainly appreciate that position, but at some point it must surely be possible to have a conversation with a given person without the need to directly or indirectly refer to the injustices of the past? If we can't get to that position, how will we ever reach a position of equality in the here and now?? :???:

It should be entirely possible for peoples of different coloured skins to interact with each other respectfully and appropriately if all parties have received education that enables them to have an understanding of the past issues, which will surely inform their approach to future conversations and behaviour?


(I think perhaps I am falling into an idealist's viewpoint here.)
 

m1918

Rough_Rock
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Oct 10, 2018
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Have you surveyed the grocery store where you shop, Restaurants where you eat, the gas stations, every mom and pop store, the server who brings you your dinner, the cook who prepared it, the farmer who provided the produce and/or meat, the truck driver who brought it from one place to the other, the owner of the processing plant? I hope you don’t buy stuff from China because their human rights record is abyssmal. How far do you want to take this? You have quite a list of demands.....make a public statement, have m1918 approved HR policies, donate to m1918 approved causes.....and that’s just to engage in simple commerce. I’d hate to think of the requirement list for a more personal relationship....the application must be brutal.
I am reconsidering where I spend my money in general. I brought up jewelers because that is what the Pricescope community is centered around.
 

Matata

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I am going to take an immediate guess without watching - is she saying that to ignore a person's colour is to imply that the past is being glossed over and no weight or consideration or acknowledgement is being given to the issues previously faced?
When we say we don't see color, an ethnic minority may internalize that as "you don't see me". There is nothing wrong with seeing skin color. What's wrong is when we weaponize skin color against an individual.
 

OoohShiny

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When we say we don't see color, an ethnic minority may internalize that as "you don't see me". There is nothing wrong with seeing skin color. What's wrong is when we weaponize skin color against an individual.
I consider myself reasonably intelligent but I'm really not sure I understand that first sentence :???: - not because of the way it is written, but because of the situation it contains.

Do people really think that way?

Perhaps the choice of words needs to be amended - so rather than 'I don't see colour' it needs to be 'I treat all colours equally' or 'Colour is irrelevant to me'?


I can sort of understand why some people seem to get so annoyed with Politically Correct stuff - it is such a minefield and every individual may interpret another individual's words and actions differently, to the point that everyone could be afraid of saying anything whatsoever - which perhaps then leads to the situation where things are never talked about for fear of unintentionally insulting someone, and groups suffering persecution feel they are being ignored because no-one talks about anything...



I think I may well be extrapolating too much and rambling aimlessly tonight!
 

1ofakind

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771
When we say we don't see color, an ethnic minority may internalize that as "you don't see me". There is nothing wrong with seeing skin color. What's wrong is when we weaponize skin color against an individual.
So POC's define themselves first and foremost by skin color? I don't think you can say that for everyone.
My friend Sheila is a wonderful mother, a great and caring friend, she has a beautiful singing voice and a corny sense of humor that I completely appreciate. She is generous and kind and I value her friendship immensely.

Am I not seeing her unless I mention her race? I don't think she would appreciate if I started that sentence with 'My black friend Sheila...." That is not how she defines herself.
 

Bayek

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Ludicrous. This is a particular situation - BLM - the best a human can do is support the overt statements of businesses.

I don't buy any items I think are manufactured by the Koch Bros.. I try my best to find out where they are making money so I don't give them any of mine.

Obviously our cops are supposed to be on the humankind but not always, but to ask about a cook, or sales person is just a red herring.

We all have to do business with people that we don't know that may have killed someone, a pedophile, a thief, a heretic, we all do our best to put our money to support those busineses that believe that black lives do matter. Or at least I hope so.

like these:








Have you surveyed the grocery store where you shop, Restaurants where you eat, the gas stations, every mom and pop store, the server who brings you your dinner, the cook who prepared it, the farmer who provided the produce and/or meat, the truck driver who brought it from one place to the other, the owner of the processing plant? I hope you don’t buy stuff from China because their human rights record is abyssmal. How far do you want to take this? You have quite a list of demands.....make a public statement, have m1918 approved HR policies, donate to m1918 approved causes.....and that’s just to engage in simple commerce. I’d hate to think of the requirement list for a more personal relationship....the application must be brutal.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
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So POC's define themselves first and foremost by skin color? I don't think you can say that for everyone.
My friend Sheila is a wonderful mother, a great and caring friend, she has a beautiful singing voice and a corny sense of humor that I completely appreciate. She is generous and kind and I value her friendship immensely.

Am I not seeing her unless I mention her race? I don't think she would appreciate if I started that sentence with 'My black friend Sheila...." That is not how she defines herself.
of course she doesn't to you, are you privy to her family get togethers, her black friends, we all put on a face in public, and I find it impossible to believe a person of color in America doesn't consider their color and race every day.
 

1ofakind

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771
of course she doesn't to you, are you privy to her family get togethers, her black friends, we all put on a face in public, and I find it impossible to believe a person of color in America doesn't consider their color and race every day.
Good try but that's not what I said.
You speak for everyone...??? Thanks I'll make a note of that in case I have any questions about what 'we all' think or do.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Just throwing this out there....
Say you have a friend you really love. Say you find out they are supporting "the other side" from you. You just lost a friend...maybe.
Then I would have disowned my brother many yrs ago.. :lol: . I have never lose a friendship over different political views.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Businesses are not people.
They are businesses.

I don't care about the CEO's politics, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
IMO the humans in charge should stay professional, which means keeping personal stuff personal - and that includes expressing opinions on all new stories.
If you sell gizmos, stick to selling gizmos.

Make us feel good about your gizmos, and fire those marketing weenies you hired to make us feel warm & fuzzy about your company. :roll:

Doing otherwise creates a creepy and not-neutral workplace and offends potential gizmo customers.
Bad business, bad workplace.
 
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Bayek

Ideal_Rock
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We are talking about Black Lives Matter in America. I don't think there is anyone who doesn't feel for everything you mentioned, but the USA has centuries old racism against people of color right NOW that is the issue.

As to kids in the cobalt mines, we as a country can and should assist countries to bring up their standard of living, through any means possible..


The caste system in India, our government could threaten to take work out of India, I dont think an individual American can make much progress about the caste system, where I lived in Maine, my neighbors from India denied there was any caste system anymore, I told I had lived in Austin and baloney but I couldn't convince her.. As I said we can work on holding American businesses accountable to having operations in India, we need business to push for that.

What about LBGT etc in Russia? we cannot interfere in Russian internal hate, I'd like to but right now we have a leader who's in bed with Putin so it's tough, when and if another president is elected we can push for human rights in Russia by again financial means.

We cannot invade Saudi Arabia and Brunei, since we are no longer dependent on middle eastern oil, the best we can is to shun these countries not sell guns to them, we must have a leader who leads individually I cannot do much about this horrid situation because I can't do anything about it here except vote for candidates who support equality for all.

You know we used to have a term for the USA bringing up 3rd world countries. The US gives a lot of money to developing countries and its allies. As to despots lining their pockets and our country working on eliminating that requires the USA to go into these countries and become involved in running the country while I'm not opposed to that per se, I don't think any other democratic country would approve, the USA has been trying to influence policy and change in countries forever..

As to suicide due to covid-19 I don't know, I have not read it's a big problem, if someone is suicidal because of the virus I would suggest they have other problems mentally also, and IF it is because people are killing themselves over loss of income then the government should support them until we are over this disease the debt no longer matters to either political party.

But none of this above is about how OUR country has systemic racist disease, white privilege is rampant, so rampant that many whites don't even understand what it is and deny having it. That's scary.. So all the problems you mentioned are very serious, very sad and we need to work on our standing in the world, assist our Americans and poverty, greed and hate around the world, but right now, the issue is at home: Black Lives Matter.


The problem with that approach is that so many bad things happen in the world, the pause would be forever.


This is a high-profile case garnering a lot of Press attention (and that is rightly so) but what about the people 'disappearing' in China for their political views and the muslims being 're-educated' in work camps to the 'one party' mindset?

What about the kids labouring in Cobalt mines to supply toxic materials for the luxury electric vehicles we must apparently buy to save the world?

What about the continuing treatment of those seen to be of a lower 'caste' in India?

What about the treatment of LGBTQ+ persons in Russia?

What about Saudi Arabia and Brunei's position on the punishment of criminals, including (in their view) homosexuals?

What about the citizens of the African continent suffering extreme poverty and early death while those in power line their pockets with huge sums gained illegally and also through the sale of rights to their countries' assets to other countries?

What about those committing suicide because the extreme (and arguable unnecessary for the under-60s) response to Coronavirus has plunged them into unrecoverable debt?


Events such as those that triggered this thread quite rightly highlight underlying issues that urgently need to be addressed in what is supposed to be the 'Developed World', and that politicians and the Police and others in positions of power need to realise this is not the 19th century and we simply cannot ignore the fact that people of colour (can we use that phrase?) still seem to be suffering poor life chances and great inequalities half a century on from Martin Luther King...

... but is it the job of business to do anything but concentrate on serving customers' needs equally and without prejudice or judgement?


A phrase I have seen used a lot recently is 'virtue signalling', and I feel we need to be careful that we don't end up in the position that we feel forced to do things because we think others think we should be doing those things.

Displays of emotion / condemnation / support / resistance / etc. should be done wholeheartedly and sincerely, and those who do not feel in the position to do so (for whatever reason - be it personal belief, awareness of potential hypocrisy, or that there is pressure to 'virtue signal') should not be criticised for that IMO.


I really don't understand why the colour of one's skin is even mentioned in what is now the 21st century. Surely we should be seeing people for the person they are inside, not how they look on the outside?

I am pleased to see that kids nowadays (in the UK, at least) are a lot more aware of the need to treat others equally, and it gives me hope for the future. Sadly, until those dinosaurs harbouring fantasies of the slave trade being a 'glorious' period :rolleyes: drop dead and stop spreading their poison to susceptible minds around them, and politicians grow some balls to roll out comprehensive education on the past and the present issues related to skin colour, and then criminalise and punish racism properly if needed, I fear we'll be stuck in this situation for a while yet.
 
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Bayek

Ideal_Rock
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It wasn't a try, I find it hard to believe that black Americans don't think about being black every day. Please feel free to connect with me anytime you need to with questions about what I think.. I don't even know how you segued to 'we all' I said I FIND IT hard to believe.

Good try but that's not what I said.
You speak for everyone...??? Thanks I'll make a note of that in case I have any questions about what 'we all' think or do.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
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I'm with all you say but if businesses that treat blacks with disrespect or a business that won't sell a cake to a gay couple say - I dont want to do business with them. period. But I agree on a whole, I buy and I move on..
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
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I think I may well be extrapolating too much and rambling aimlessly tonight!
I am inexpert at explaining experts research on the topic of what ignoring color means to poc. As I stated earlier, if you want to understand what ignoring color means to poc, you can watch some of Elliott's vids (she can be polarizing) or look at all the info available via web. I regret addressing your earlier statement as I don't have the capacity to present the info properly.
 

Jsand

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Messages
175
Agree with previous posters, a lot of it comes off as virtue signalling plain and simple. The Instagram blackout squares felt like shameless sheep jumping on a virtuosity bandwagon.

Personally, I believe it’s more important to educate myself and my children, or make donations to the causes, than try to prove something on social media.

I did come across this very balanced post, which makes a lot of sense. Please read all the slides, it’s an interesting point of view:
http://instagr.am/p/CA_AEBrgF5f/
 

JPie

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Saying "I don't see color" is like saying "I'm not a racist!" It belies the fact that we all have implicit biases, regardless of our ethnic background and our best intentions. We do see color, and we make snap judgments based on it. People seldom act out in a racist way because they're proud of being racists. Most of the time, the action or remark was not intended to be racist. (See microaggressions.)

I think we have more opportunity to grow and learn if we are willing to be honest and talk about our biases, where they might be coming from, and how we can change our environment and behaviors so they don't encourage the same bias in the next generation. Proclaiming that you don't see color isn't really honest or helpful.
 

SandyinAnaheim

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i actually think staying silent is appropriate for companies that haven't demonstrated commitment to community prior to this. a lot of the emails i'm receiving from various brands come off as hollow virtue signaling. a respectful silence is sometimes the best thing they can do.
Agree with previous posters, a lot of it comes off as virtue signalling plain and simple. The Instagram blackout squares felt like shameless sheep jumping on a virtuosity bandwagon....
I agree 1,000% with the above. If I haven't heard anything from a vendor regarding race, politics, social issues, etc. in years, the fact that they are now joining the "popular" trend makes them come off as completely false and wanting to be involved, however weakly. I've unfollowed some of these vendors because I simply cannot stand the hypocrisy. I am TOTALLY uninterested in what people and/or companies say. I am interested in what they DO. And if they were doing something of import, that is something others would be reporting about them.
 

1ofakind

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It wasn't a try, I find it hard to believe that black Americans don't think about being black every day. Please feel free to connect with me anytime you need to with questions about what I think.. I don't even know how you segued to 'we all' I said I FIND IT hard to believe.
I'll try again...I said she doesn't define herself by her race. It's not even in a description/introduction I've heard her give of herself. Of course she knows she's black and I'm sure she thinks about it. However, (although I have not and would never ask who she would vote for) I suspect Joe Biden would say she 'ain't black' at all.

"...we all put on a face in public..." That is quoting your post.
 

1ofakind

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@Jsand
Thank you for the IG post that explains very well why some (including myself) do not post about very difficult things on social media. It is not a lack of empathy or indication of indifference. Some people use it as a platform and others do not. I rarely discuss politics with friends because it is so divisive no matter one's perspective. When I see someone post "silence is compliance" and social media shaming I think they must be very arrogant to presume what everyone else is thinking or doing out of public view.
I have a very small business and if someone came asking my position on BLM or animal rights or abortion etc. before they wanted to conduct a transaction I would just prefer they take their business elsewhere because I am not perfect. I am evolving and every day trying to be a better person but I would no doubt fail to live up to some standard at some point.
 

kenny

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Blah Blah Blah. :roll: Stick to making ice cream.

Who really knows how business owners feel about anything?
But many have discovered this cheap tacky way to drive up sales. :nono:
We consumers can never know if it's sincere ... but they do know that many of us are easily manipulate.
This approach is so much easier than figuring out how to offer an improved product at a lower price, isn't it?

What's that saying? ... Oh Yeah. Image over substance.

All I'm saying is don't be gullible, follow the money, and remain skeptical.
 
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Dancing Fire

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I've unfollowed some of these vendors because I simply cannot stand the hypocrisy. I am TOTALLY uninterested in what people and/or companies say. I am interested in what they DO. And if they were doing something of import, that is something others would be reporting about them.
You mean like on IG and FB?
 

JPie

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Blah Blah Blah. :roll: Stick to making ice cream.

Who really knows how business owners feel about anything?
But many have discovered this cheap tacky way to drive up sales. :nono:
We consumers can never know if it's sincere ... but they do know that many of us are easily manipulate.
This approach is so much easier than figuring out how to offer an improved product at a lower price, isn't it?

What's that saying? ... Oh Yeah. Image over substance.

All I'm saying is don't be gullible, follow the money, and remain skeptical.
I don’t need business owners to be sincere in their beliefs as long as they put their money where their mouth is. Worthy causes still benefit from it, and losing that support can be very detrimental. The nonprofit I volunteer at was forced to lay off staff when a corporate sponsor pulled out of an annual fundraiser. That’s how much of an impact it can have.

If I was choosing between two products with similar features, but one brand donated a percentage of sales to support protesters and the other didn’t, then I know which one I would buy. It’s not being gullible, it’s being pragmatic and strategic to support causes I care about.

Even if donations weren’t involved, I’d still support brands that publicly denounce racism and facism. They likely piss off Trump and I’m down with that.
 

missy

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I don’t need business owners to be sincere in their beliefs as long as they put their money where their mouth is. Worthy causes still benefit from it, and losing that support can be very detrimental. The nonprofit I volunteer at was forced to lay off staff when a corporate sponsor pulled out of an annual fundraiser. That’s how much of an impact it can have.

If I was choosing between two products with similar features, but one brand donated a percentage of sales to support protesters and the other didn’t, then I know which one I would buy. It’s not being gullible, it’s being pragmatic and strategic to support causes I care about.

Even if donations weren’t involved, I’d still support brands that publicly denounce racism and facism. They likely piss off Trump and I’m down with that.
I agree. If a company publicly stands for something I feel strongly about it will make a difference for me and the way I use my buying dollars. In fact, because you alerted me to a specific business owner who has views I find offensive I no longer will purchase from said person/company so it does make a difference. I appreciate you letting me know about it, thanks. Ignorance is not bliss.
 

SandyinAnaheim

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You mean like on IG and FB?
Yes, but locally too. I've seen restaurants and stores near me now have BLM signs up. UMMMM, black lives mattered 6 months ago, if they really believed that why didn't they have a sign up before? Why are all of their employees white? Why are they throwing away food rather than giving it to a food bank to help the less fortunate, regardless of color? To me, it's just sheeple being more hypocritical and facetious than usual, to fit in with the rest of the sheeple that want to feel part of the narrative.
 

Arcadian

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Yes, but locally too. I've seen restaurants and stores near me now have BLM signs up. UMMMM, black lives mattered 6 months ago, if they really believed that why didn't they have a sign up before? Why are all of their employees white? Why are they throwing away food rather than giving it to a food bank to help the less fortunate, regardless of color? To me, it's just sheeple being more hypocritical and facetious than usual, to fit in with the rest of the sheeple that want to feel part of the narrative.
This. This right here! :appl: This is what I'm talking about. I've lived under this shadow my entire life. why are you as a business feeding me a line with a sign... Don't just make a sign, be about that shit!

My challenge to businesses; You want a black life to matter? Hire us, many are very qualified and we can learn. Want a black life to matter? Give us a living wage for the work we perform. Want a black life to matter? Treat us fairly without malice, without judgement as a customer AND as an employee.

My wants are the same for a jeweler. If you can't be about it, I don't want to deal with you.

I'm sick of the message being diluted. don't give me a pretty sign, give me action!
 
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