Independent Appraisal (VS) Non-Independent Appraisal???

[msdarlinjoy]

Good afternoon to all ~

I don't mean to beat this topic into the ground, but I am very puzzeled.

It was my understanding that if you bought your diamond from an Online Vendor and that vendor offered an appraisal with reports, this is considered a non-independant appraisal. Yes or No?

However great this vendor is & the reports, if anything every happened to the diamond (Like accidently getting chipped while being set), most insurance companies would try to replace it with a like diamond (with not having to be specific with my parameters and numbers) with whom they are contracted with to replace ... in other words, the insurance company wouldn't neccesarily be as picky about specific #'s within my range of diamond, however, If I had an Independant Appraisal, I would have more power in my corner to get the same kind of diamond replaced, like being specific with #'s etc. (Not considering cash-out type insurance companies like CHUBB).

Is this true?

I guess, I am confused about the advantages, and also, if there are any disadvantages with having an Independant Appraisal (vs) Non-Independant Appraisal.

Thank you in advance for any discussion and commentary on this subject.

Have a wonderful day!

ETA: IN PINK

 

[diamondseeker2006]

No, this is not correct. I can assure you that Jonathan will give you an excellent appraisal. There is no need for another one in your case unless you do not trust what Jonathan and the report/certificate says. What he gives you will be more than adequate for insurance. No one is going to do more tests on that stone than he has!!!

An independent appraisal is necessary when the diamond does not come with one or when you don't trust the source of the diamond.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Incidentally...I am very anxious to see your new diamond in that Vatche setting!!!

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 7/23/2006 4:46:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
No, this is not correct. I can assure you that Jonathan will give you an excellent appraisal. There is no need for another one in your case unless you do not trust what Jonathan and the report/certificate says. What he gives you will be more than adequate for insurance. No one is going to do more tests on that stone than he has!!!

An independent appraisal is necessary when the diamond does not come with one or when you don''t trust the source of the diamond.

Hi Diamondseeker ~

I wasn''t refering to Jonathan in particular for my question. I trust Jonathan

... If I didn''t I wouldn''t have bought or continue in the future to buy from GOG. Oh, and I am getting very excited to see my ring ... I think it should be here in about two weeks.

My question is more specifically related to insurance/replacement and insurance/damage replacement.

I have heard that no matter how good the "Non-Independant Appraisal" is ... it is subject to scrutiny & perhaps bias from the insurance company''s perspective. I have heard that having an un-biased Independant Appraisal is better to have in your corner if anything should ever happen to your diamond, so in the end, the company has a more difficult time trying to replace your diamond with just any diamond that is a J SI1 in your ct size. I have heard that if you have an Independant appraisal, an appraisal that list''s specifically the qualities of your diamond that make it unique, that you have more power in your corner to get exactly what you got the first time around, without too much hassel.

I know that certain insurance company''s are different from eachother and their policies that they carry, but I guess in general, wouldn''t it be best to get an Independant appraisal for Insurance purposes?

Just a thought that is twirling around in my head ... and would like to hear others opinion on the advantages and disadvantages if any ... on a Independant (vs) non-independant appraisal.

Thanks, and hope you have a great day!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Mrs. DJ,

The key is having the appraisal be detailed and give a current value so that you are able to get an equivalent item if you experience a loss. I do not think the issue is whether the item is appraised by the vendor who sells it or not as long as the vendor is qualified to do the appraisal. If you only submit the appraisal to your insurance company, they don't necessarily know where you purchased the stone/ring unless the appraisal happens to mention it. For that matter, I have often just submitted my sales receipts (with the item described) to have jewelry items added onto our insurance, and that value is certainly not independently determined.

I assure you that Jonathan provides a more than adequate appraisal for insurance. The independent appraisal I've had done on my current diamond is comprised of a few sentences and certainly is not as good as one that Jonathan and some of these vendors would provide with a stone. We only had to have that one done because the diamond did not come with an appraisal and we had to update our insurance at some point.

Save your money for your diamond bands or something fun like that!

 

[strmrdr]

right now most if not maybe all insurance companies don't care who does the appraisal.
The information the policy is bound with is what has to be replaced or paid.
The more information the better as long as the insurance company is willing to bind the policy to the info.
A friend of mine ran into a situation where the agent took all the paperwork but bound the policy to a 2 line summery of the info and threw the papers away.
It created a bit of a hassle when it came time to replace it when it was destroyed in a fire.
Find a good agent that knows jewelery or deal with a company that specialises in it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 7/23/2006 7:47:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
right now most if not maybe all insurance companies don''t care who does the appraisal.
The information the policy is bound with is what has to be replaced or paid.
The more information the better as long as the insurance company is willing to bind the policy to the info.
A friend of mine ran into a situation where the agent took all the paperwork but bound the policy to a 2 line summery of the info and threw the papers away.
It created a bit of a hassle when it came time to replace it when it was destroyed in a fire.
Find a good agent that knows jewelery or deal with a company that specialises in it.

We insure my jewelry on our homeowners policy. You make a good point about possibly losing your documents if there was a fire, flood, etc. I need to do better about putting things like that in a safe deposit box!

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Hi Diamondseeker ~

The reason I am asking the Questoin has nothing to do with Jonathan

, and the service he provides. I love all the pertinent technical reports that Jonathan provides for his diamonds. Very, Very happy with his service

, and the customer service after the sale from him and his staff

, that for sure is not questionable.

The question infact has to do with a discussion that about 8 of us are having at work re: insurance coverage/replacement issues with insurance carriers. What you pay for (vs) what you get. Everyone is throwing out information .... blahhh! Imagine 8 women all talking about diamonds and insurance at the same time!

One of the gals, states that her insurance agent told her that for her policy, she needed to get an "Independant Appraisal" if she wanted to have her diamond replaced with a certain kind, or specific parameters ie:pavilion #''s etc. That for her particular policy, they consider the jeweler who sold her the diamond to be a bit biased, because he may have or has had some kind of vested interest in the stone. (I am trying to remember exactly what she said.) So, the particular policy that she got with an Independant appraisal, will get her the same kind, type diamond "# specific" without hassel.

Now, if she just wanted to get her 1.02ct I SI1 replaced with just another 1.02 I SI1 ... then she could just present what information and reports that her jeweler (Non-Independant appraisal) gave her along with a receipt of purchase and in the event of loss and or damage ... she would be covered, but might not get a sparkler, like she has currently, because they would just replace her diamond with "like" kind with the company they do business with for replacement, and her policy would reflect that.

So, a few of us on a limited lunch break, were discussing the advantages, and / disadvantages of Independant appraisal (vs) Non-Independant appraisal and insurnace companies.

I understand that insurance companies like CHUBB, are a little different than most home owner policies (Cash out "vs" replacement value "vs" ???.

I personally haven''t decided on which insurance company I am going to go with to insure my ering, and my two milgrain diamond bands, I am thinking possibly a cash-out type, since I could be in charge of what I want to get and with whom.

But the question is still there, re:advantages or disadvantages of different types of appraisals & how most insurance companies use the different appraisals.

It is just an interesting question, and has a few people at work wondering, and going home (Running) and digging up their current policy to see exactly what it covers and what it doesn''t. I was doing a little bit of thread reading and found a couple threads ... re: Independant appraisal, but the topic is still a little muddy for me.

Insurance can be sooo very confusing.

Thanks and if anyone has any real life stories, or experiences, please feel free to share.

Have a wonderful & hopefully a cool day! (Sweating here! (104*) NO A/C!

)

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Mrs DJ,

I hear what you're saying about your friend's policy, but I do not think that is typical. We've moved over the years (4 states) and never have I been asked at any time whether my appraisal was done by the person who sold it to me. Each time, I have sent the sales receipts with description or appraisal and they add the items onto the insurance. Someone like Jonathan is going to give MORE specific detail on the diamond because he wants you to be able to get an equivalent diamond in case of loss. Unless your insurance company rejects the GOG appraisal, then I see no reason to even consider another one. The insurance company can't force you to settle for a poorly cut stone when you have an appraisal for a H&A stone with very specific measurements, brilliance, etc. You'll have the evidence you need to replace it with an equivalent diamond if the time ever comes.

ETA: My insurance would cover an item with just a sales receipt, and in that case, there wouldn't be enough detail about the quality of the stones to guarantee an equivalent replacement. So with that scenario, I might be in trouble without an appraisal. But there is no reason that the jeweler who sells it to me cannot do the appraisal if they are a certified gemologist (or whatever the title).

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 7/23/2006 7:47:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
right now most if not maybe all insurance companies don''t care who does the appraisal.
The information the policy is bound with is what has to be replaced or paid.
The more information the better as long as the insurance company is willing to bind the policy to the info.
A friend of mine ran into a situation where the agent took all the paperwork but bound the policy to a 2 line summery of the info and threw the papers away.
It created a bit of a hassle when it came time to replace it when it was destroyed in a fire.
Find a good agent that knows jewelery or deal with a company that specialises in it.

Hi Storm!

Thanks for chiming in ... I think this is what maybe one of the ladies at work was trying to say. In order to be specific with replacement, that is why maybe they required an Independant appraisal, so that her diamond information could then be applied "binded" to her particular policy.

All I know is that there were quite a few ladies who were very worried about their policy, they assumed that they were covered, but then started wondering what were they covered for? It''s just a topic that might save someone some heartache down the road, since insurance can be so legally confusing. Best to know what kind of policy you have and if something were to happen to your ring, what your covered for.

Have a nice cool day!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I just looked on my last ring appraisal and it describes the stone and setting but nowhere does it mention where the stone was originally purchased. So I just don't think that is an issue except in the case of using a sales receipt without adequate description. You can certainly ask Jonathan the question, though. We talked a little about my appraisal and the insurance and he did not indicate that there would be any reason to get another appraisal.

 

[RockDoc]

Non Independent Appraisal

That is sort of an oxymoron.

Look up the legal definition of an appraisal. It MUST be independent. If a seller writes a document called an appraisal, it becomes an express warranty. There lots of legal cases where this has been held by various Courts.

For acquiring insurance coverage, a seller can write a document called that is called something else, but it should NOT be called an appraisal. First and formost the document must be factual and no "hidden" content. If an appraiser has an interest, it MUST be disclosed in the report. If the sale price is higher than the sale price for a report written at the same time, it should also be disclosed and narratively explained what the reasonsing is to back up the value reported.

Actually, I''ve never heard an insurance company require an independent appraisal except for very high value items, and even then very few companies are aware of this.

Reliers that will make financial decsions based on what is contained in the report have an implied warranty that the valuation is done which is written and reported truthfully, factually, and to the appraisal industry''s standards of practice.

Unfortunately, in personal property, there just are that many people who have the valuation training and education to fill the need. In many cases purchasers rely on the opinions of sellers with no appraisal training or who are unaware of these standards, and don''t practice them.

There are standards and methodologies of how the values should be done, and HOW the value conclusions is arrived at should be written in detail in the reports.

Probably 90% of the appraisals written for insurance to cover jewelry are grossly inflated. So why don''t the insurance companies complain? In replacement type policies, they receive overpayments for the coverage. If the value is 30% higher over what they can replace it for, then the insurance company benefits financially. For appraisals that are valued at 10 times over the sales price, ( which are out there) who benefits? The insurance company. And usually it isn''t for just one year of premiums either. It is for EACH year the item is insured at those overvalued amounts contained within such reports.

The additional thought here is; out of each 100 policies written, how many actually do have a loss, and what is the average time the item is insured before that happens, and how much less than the insured value do they pay to make the actual replacement, and do they actually disclose their cost when a claim is paid?

Appraisals for real estate are mandated by law as to independent requirements, and the qualification and state by state licensing of valuers of real estate. Personal property appraisal professional are NOT licensed ( except for a general business license). So essentially anyone who holds themselves to be an appraiser can. But with that comes a liability as well. If you provide this information regardless of your expertise, you are liable legally for damages to any party that relies on what you provided. I keep writing the question - WOULD YOU LET THE SELLER OF THE HOUSE YOU WERE BUYING PROVIDE THE APPRAISAL or PERFORM THE HOME INSPECTION??? In those instances I don''t believe that any person reading this forum would permit that to happen. The same logic and reasoning applies when buying anything for which an appraisal is needed.

For replacement policies, make sure the original appraisal documents, lab reports, photographs and any thing else provided is kept safe. Most insurance companies do not file away original documents as Storm mentioned. They just keep the brief description usually 1000 characters at most, and just "roll the dice" when having to settle a claim. Particularly true if the appraisal report has lots of pages. They get "conveniently lost". Insureds don''t learn this until their is a loss and what is stated on the documents are paramount to getting a proper and accurate replacement.


Just last week, Neil shared with me a very interesting case law document. Perhaps he will post it here. I don''t want to steal the credit for his research. It would make for a very interesting thread for discussion as to just how liable a seller becomes when issuing an appraisal.

Appraisers that do have this professional training constantly study and discuss what happens in the court system. At least those of us who care do. But be informed that there are plenty of folks out there with impressive credentials, who don''t.

Rockdoc

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Diamondseeker ~

I thought it was quite interesting that half of the ladies didn''t even know anything about how their rings were covered. They didn''t know if they were covered for cash out, or value/replacement. They had their husbands take care of it years ago, and now most of them are wondering how much they are covered for, especially now that diamond prices have gone up over the years. They don''t know if they could even get a replacement of like kind. Most of them were going to dig up the policy and find out about their diamonds, and if they were insured enough still over the years.

I also thought it was interesting in the one lady as her insurance agent specified for an "Independant appraisal" ... It just got me thinking, not all jewelers can provide the same amount of info, as in like the amount of info Jonathan provides. I am wondering if her insurance agent specifies this for all of their policies or just some of them?

I mean it wasn''t like she had a 5ct E VVS1 that she was insuring.

I don''t know. Just very interesting in how it all works.

I am going to be calling up our insurance agent who insures our household goodies, and see what kind of policies they have, or if I will need a special rider attached??? Personally, I like the idea of maybe a cashout for myself, I think I would have more control of what I could get, but I will talk with our agent first, and see what they have to offer. Everyone at work keeps asking me about "when" am I going to get it, and "I had better get this one insured" etc... (That''s how the topic initially came up at work, wanting to know when I was going to get my ring, and how much was I going to insure it for) I said "Get it in about 2 weeks" and "I don''t how much I am going to insure it for ... or with who." That''s when the onslought of "this and that" and "oh no you can''t do it this way, has to be this way" ... "oh my gosh" ... "I don''t know what I am covered for" ... "better check" etc... It really was a crazy lunch that day!

I think Storm points out something that I hadn''t considered, and that is no matter what insurance company someone goes with (Me included) that the appraisal no matter who did it, all the pertinent info should be binded to that particular policy. It wouldn''t do much good if I brought in all of my reports and cert''s and analysis if they aren''t going to use it.

I don''t know how many ladies are going to be at work tomorrow, but I am sure that thruout the week this topic will pick up steam again with them. I don''t know how much info I will have to pass on to them, maybe I''ll just listen and nod my head ... Uh huh ...

Well, I guess I will check back later to see if anyone else has anything to add.

Thanks and see ya''ll tomorrow! Hope your day will be a beautiful one!

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Hi RockDoc ~

Thank you for replying to this thread. I couldn''t sleep, it''s still too hot, 12:40 and 89*

Date: 7/24/2006 1:34:05 AM
Author: RockDoc
Non Independent Appraisal
I know this sounds weird, but it was the phrase that kept getting passed across the lunch table.

That is sort of an oxymoron.

Look up the legal definition of an appraisal. It MUST be independent. If a seller writes a document called an appraisal, it becomes an express warranty. There lots of legal cases where this has been held by various Courts.

For acquiring insurance coverage, a seller can write a document called that is called something else, but it should NOT be called an appraisal. First and formost the document must be factual and no ''hidden'' content. If an appraiser has an interest, it MUST be disclosed in the report. If the sale price is higher than the sale price for a report written at the same time, it should also be disclosed and narratively explained what the reasonsing is to back up the value reported.

Actually, I''ve never heard an insurance company require an independent appraisal except for very high value items, and even then very few companies are aware of this.
I have never heard of this either, but then again, I am not a professional in this arena. All I know is that this lady''s husband is very controlling ... and wouldn''t tell her who her ring is insured with, or for how much, etc. All she knows is that before she could wear it, he had to have an Independent Appraisal as requested by the insurance agent, which took awhile according to her. My husband has expensive toys, and his insurance agent never asked him for an Independent appraisal, but then again, his toys aren''t diamonds. I just thought it was odd and the other ladies said they were never asked for one as far as they remembered.

Reliers that will make financial decsions based on what is contained in the report have an implied warranty that the valuation is done which is written and reported truthfully, factually, and to the appraisal industry''s standards of practice.

Unfortunately, in personal property, there just are that many people who have the valuation training and education to fill the need. In many cases purchasers rely on the opinions of sellers with no appraisal training or who are unaware of these standards, and don''t practice them.

There are standards and methodologies of how the values should be done, and HOW the value conclusions is arrived at should be written in detail in the reports.

Probably 90% of the appraisals written for insurance to cover jewelry are grossly inflated. So why don''t the insurance companies complain? In replacement type policies, they receive overpayments for the coverage. If the value is 30% higher over what they can replace it for, then the insurance company benefits financially. For appraisals that are valued at 10 times over the sales price, ( which are out there) who benefits? The insurance company. And usually it isn''t for just one year of premiums either. It is for EACH year the item is insured at those overvalued amounts contained within such reports.

The additional thought here is; out of each 100 policies written, how many actually do have a loss, and what is the average time the item is insured before that happens, and how much less than the insured value do they pay to make the actual replacement, and do they actually disclose their cost when a claim is paid?

Appraisals for real estate are mandated by law as to independent requirements, and the qualification and state by state licensing of valuers of real estate. Personal property appraisal professional are NOT licensed ( except for a general business license). So essentially anyone who holds themselves to be an appraiser can. But with that comes a liability as well. If you provide this information regardless of your expertise, you are liable legally for damages to any party that relies on what you provided. I keep writing the question - WOULD YOU LET THE SELLER OF THE HOUSE YOU WERE BUYING PROVIDE THE APPRAISAL or PERFORM THE HOME INSPECTION??? In those instances I don''t believe that any person reading this forum would permit that to happen. The same logic and reasoning applies when buying anything for which an appraisal is needed.

For replacement policies, make sure the original appraisal documents, lab reports, photographs and any thing else provided is kept safe. Most insurance companies do not file away original documents as Storm mentioned. They just keep the brief description usually 1000 characters at most, and just ''roll the dice'' when having to settle a claim. Particularly true if the appraisal report has lots of pages. They get ''conveniently lost''. Insureds don''t learn this until their is a loss and what is stated on the documents are paramount to getting a proper and accurate replacement.


Just last week, Neil shared with me a very interesting case law document. Perhaps he will post it here. I don''t want to steal the credit for his research. It would make for a very interesting thread for discussion as to just how liable a seller becomes when issuing an appraisal.
This does sound interesting, and I hope that Neil will post his research.

Appraisers that do have this professional training constantly study and discuss what happens in the court system. At least those of us who care do. But be informed that there are plenty of folks out there with impressive credentials, who don''t.

Rockdoc


Thank you RockDoc

... I appreciate your insights and time you''ve taken to share with us here.
Have a wonderful day!

 

[denverappraiser]

Here’s the case that I showed Rockdoc.

It’s a Massachusetts case that involves a jeweler representing himself as an appraiser of merchandise that he sold and that was subsequently found to be misgraded by a single color grade. The plantiff was awarded triple damages plus attorney fees because this was found to be an "unfair and deceptive practice".

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) CGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[RockDoc]

Thanks Neil.

To me what is interesting in this matter is that the misrepresented color was one grade. And that one grade was for an essentially 1/2 carat diamond.

Additionally, the sale was made 10 years prior.


Comment ....??


Rockdoc

 

[Eva17]

Could somebody explain what being binded means? Thanks!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 7/24/2006 9:40:15 AM
Author: Eva17
Could somebody explain what being binded means? Thanks!

I assume it means that the information is attached to the policy.

Mrs DJ, jewelry is normally attached to a homeowners policy as a rider. I have had my ring on homeowners policies for over 29 years. Over the years we have added a few other items. I usually only add items worth over about $2500. I''ll be honest and tell you that I don''t know whether they''d offer to replace the item or give me the cash. It really doesn''t matter to me. I have read of another case on here where the person was offered replacement stones that were inferior to the one they had, and they just kept refusing based on the fact that the stones did not match the quality (H&A, etc.) of the one they had so the insurance finally gave them the money. However, the bottom line is that the vast majority of people will never be in the situation of making a claim. As RocDoc said, that is a very good reason not to have an overly inflated appraisal on any item. The insurance company just makes a big profit.

 

[denverappraiser]

‘Binding’ is what the insurance companies call it when they agree to accept your money and issue you a policy.

Insurance agents will regularly ask a client to provide an ‘appraisal’ as a requirement before issuing a policy although they are usually incredibly imprecise about exactly what it is they want and they will almost always accept documentation that would not meet a legal definition of an appraisal. I’ve never heard of an insurance company requiring an 'independent' appraisal as a binding requirement either although they both use and require others to use independents for other situations.

The claims process is, by it’s nature, confrontational although the companies will try to sugar coat it as much as possible. They have agreed to make you whole again after the loss and, for the most part, they really are trying to do this. It would be irresponsible to their stockholders to give you more than you are entitled to and it would be unfair to you to give you less. This forces a negotiation about exactly what constitutes ‘like kind and quality’ and it’s one of the major reasons that the company wants an appraisal before the policy starts. It’s also the primary reason that they are having YOU supply the appraisal instead of doing it themselves. It’s entirely reasonable and fair for the company to replace the piece with one that meets the definition that YOU provided them when they agreed to the policy. This is why it’s so important that the appraisal be complete. Similarly, the bottom line value on the appraisal serves as the maximum limit of liability for the company and is therefore used as a way of setting the premium. This is not the same as the expected payout and, once again, this number is being supplied by YOU, not by their actuaries, who are a smart bunch of people and who really do know what things cost.

Life during the claims process is easier for both sides if they include the entire body of the appraisal with the policy but this can get cumbersome and a pretty good compromise is to reference it. ‘Ladies gold and diamond ring described on report #123’ is a pretty good description for that abbreviated 1 sentence in their templates. In practice, you can usually win the fight anyway because if they ‘summarize’ the appraisal while writing the contract, it’s the agent who is doing the editing and deciding what is important and what is not. Assuming that the agent is not an expert (which is almost certainly the case), they are violating their own policies by doing this. Even if the agent is an expert, they have a conflict of interest and probably should stay out of it. Most of the companies I’ve worked with are thrilled to have a detailed and accurate appraisal presented up front and they have no problem retaining a copy for the entire life of the policy but, just in case, you should keep a copy as well.

The documents I’ve seen from GOG are wonderfully descriptive. I would not expect an insurance company to have any problem either binding a policy based on one or with using one to process a claim. Fighting over the quality of the hearts & arrows in a claim can be a bit of a struggle because it’s somewhat unusual but, in the end, I wouldn’t expect it to be all that much of a problem if you told them about this requirement up front and stick by your position.

I’ll write about the difference between a warranty and an appraisal later. It’s complicated, to say the least.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) CGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Really good information, Neil! Thank you!

 

[Eva17]

Thank you Neil, for your very detailed information. It is very helpful!

 

[Regular Guy]

Neil,

You''re frequently, and especially here, enjoyable to read. Also, your comments are much more helpful that the ones I might have put about Sampson (and binding).

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/23/2006 5:19:21 PM
Author: Mrs Darlin Joy

Date: 7/23/2006 4:46:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
No, this is not correct. I can assure you that Jonathan will give you an excellent appraisal. There is no need for another one in your case unless you do not trust what Jonathan and the report/certificate says. What he gives you will be more than adequate for insurance. No one is going to do more tests on that stone than he has!!!

An independent appraisal is necessary when the diamond does not come with one or when you don''t trust the source of the diamond.

Hi Diamondseeker ~

I wasn''t refering to Jonathan in particular for my question. I trust Jonathan

... If I didn''t I wouldn''t have bought or continue in the future to buy from GOG. Oh, and I am getting very excited to see my ring ... I think it should be here in about two weeks.

My question is more specifically related to insurance/replacement and insurance/damage replacement.

I have heard that no matter how good the ''Non-Independant Appraisal'' is ... it is subject to scrutiny & perhaps bias from the insurance company''s perspective. I have done a lot of insurance replacement work and have NEVER heard of this. Adjusters love to have detailed descriptions that allow them to replace the item exactly. Their binder is in effect a contract with you as to what they will replace the item with. If your appriasal reads that you have a branded item and the amount of insurance is adequate, then that is what they will replace your item with. I have heard that having an un-biased Independant Appraisal is better to have in your corner if anything should ever happen to your diamond, so in the end, the company has a more difficult time trying to replace your diamond with just any diamond that is a J SI1 in your ct size. I have heard that if you have an Independant appraisal, an appraisal that list''s specifically the qualities of your diamond that make it unique, that you have more power in your corner to get exactly what you got the first time around, without too much hassel. Sounds a very lot like something an independant appraiser might tell you if they were of "questionable" ethics. If you have an appraisal from the vendor that lists every thing about the diamond, such as the cut, color clarity, BRAND NAME (if appropriate) etc, then you have just as adequate an appraisal as you would receive from any independant appraiser. For someone to tell you differently in order to scare you into buying their service when they know it not to be true is just plain wrong. Maybe they do things differently in the East, but here in Idaho I have had several adjusters tell me that they were incredibly happy with the quality of my appraisals as it always made their job easier, and NEVER has any one of them questioned it in the rare times that one needed to be acted upon.

I know that certain insurance company''s are different from eachother and their policies that they carry, but I guess in general, wouldn''t it be best to get an Independant appraisal for Insurance purposes? No, it would be best to get a complete and accurate appraisal with ALL of the pertinent information, regardless of whether it was independant or non-dependant...

Just a thought that is twirling around in my head ... and would like to hear others opinion on the advantages and disadvantages if any ... on a Independant (vs) non-independant appraisal.

Thanks, and hope you have a great day!

I am going to answer in the body of your quote in black for clarity in answering all of your questions. Then I will finish my comments here.

All of the above having been said, I would take a non-independat appraisal from Jonathon over all but a few of the independant appraisals I have ever seen. We have a complement of extraordinarily good appraisers here on PriceScope so I am sure that it was none of them telling you that a non independant appraisal was subject to extra scrutiny. If you saw what the average appraisal lookied like you would be appalled. (A ladies diamond ring with a one carat diamond. $10,000). Now that is an appraisal that needed an independant appraiser in the worst way!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/23/2006 8:09:38 PM
Author: Mrs Darlin Joy

One of the gals, states that her insurance agent told her that for her policy, she needed to get an ''Independant Appraisal'' if she wanted to have her diamond replaced with a certain kind, or specific parameters ie:pavilion #''s etc. That for her particular policy, they consider the jeweler who sold her the diamond to be a bit biased, because he may have or has had some kind of vested interest in the stone. (I am trying to remember exactly what she said.) So, the particular policy that she got with an Independant appraisal, will get her the same kind, type diamond ''# specific'' without hassel.


(Sweating here! (104*) NO A/C!

)

NO AC! That really is horrible!

If her agent told her that she needed it for her policy then she better get it. She might want to look for a new agent too, but that is beyond my area of expertise, I know it would make me go looking for a new policy if I had to do that type of extra leg work and pay the extra fees when I already had a competent and complete appriasal on my item.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

And as often happens when I come late to a conversation someone has already said it better. Our appriasals are in fact called a "Jewelry Evaluation for Insurance", I improperly used the term appraisal for the purpose of this discussion.

RE Roc Doc''s comment: Appraisals for real estate are mandated by law as to independent requirements, and the qualification and state by state licensing of valuers of real estate. Personal property appraisal professional are NOT licensed ( except for a general business license). So essentially anyone who holds themselves to be an appraiser can. But with that comes a liability as well. If you provide this information regardless of your expertise, you are liable legally for damages to any party that relies on what you provided. I keep writing the question - WOULD YOU LET THE SELLER OF THE HOUSE YOU WERE BUYING PROVIDE THE APPRAISAL or PERFORM THE HOME INSPECTION??? In those instances I don''t believe that any person reading this forum would permit that to happen. The same logic and reasoning applies when buying anything for which an appraisal is needed.

If you could check their bona fides and have the long term relationships with them that you have with most of the vendors here on Pricescope, why not? (Because the lenders demand otherwise) We are for the most part talking about items from $2,000 - $10,000 with occassional purchases for more. A $400 fee for an appriasal on a $500,000 house represents 0.08% of the purchase price (less than one tenth of one percent). A $400 fee on a $5,000 ring represents 8% of the purchase price. People buy accross state lines to avoid sales taxes of 5-8 % and you are asking them to pay an extra 8% for an appraisal that they may or may not need. I think you want people to agree that they are insane not to get an independant appraisal because that is what they would have to do on a house. I think I want people to agree that they may not need it, but that they are welcome to get one if they think that they do. I do NOT believe that the house and the diamond are equally in need of an independant appraisal as it is far easier to establish the value on a diamond. punch in the numbers on diamond search and pull up a list of comparables, much easier than trying to figure out the value of a house.

For someone not comfortable with trusting the vendor, you offer a great service, but I think you are wrong in stating that same logic as buiying a house applies to buying a diamond.

Wink

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 7/24/2006 10:01:08 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 7/24/2006 9:40:15 AM
Author: Eva17
Could somebody explain what being binded means? Thanks!

I assume it means that the information is attached to the policy.

Mrs DJ, jewelry is normally attached to a homeowners policy as a rider. I have had my ring on homeowners policies for over 29 years. Over the years we have added a few other items. I usually only add items worth over about $2500. I''ll be honest and tell you that I don''t know whether they''d offer to replace the item or give me the cash. It really doesn''t matter to me. I have read of another case on here where the person was offered replacement stones that were inferior to the one they had, and they just kept refusing based on the fact that the stones did not match the quality (H&A, etc.) of the one they had so the insurance finally gave them the money. However, the bottom line is that the vast majority of people will never be in the situation of making a claim. As RocDoc said, that is a very good reason not to have an overly inflated appraisal on any item. The insurance company just makes a big profit.

Hi Diamondseeker ~

Thanks for all of your replies. DH thought that we would probably due a rider too, but not sure if we are going to currently stick with the company we have, or change all insurance like home/car etc... to one.

I currently don''t have ins. on my jewelry, but am going to consider it. I just want to make a wise decision with consideration to the amount of money to insure (vs) could I afford to replace if something happened to it. I wish I would have had my platinum diamond earrings insured when they mysteriously disappeared a few years back. Oh wel, live & learn. I definately will have my wedding set/diamond ring insured, & will think about the other jewelry.

Of course hubby wants to make sure that if something ever did happen to my wedding ring set (Likely hood of that happening is very slim) he just wants to make sure I end up with something just as beautiful & sparklie as the first. I told him that it would be important to discuss that matter with the insurance agent with our reports in hand, and that we should be fine. But he can worry a bit much at times.

These ladies @ lunch, well one in particular, has got our feathers ruffeled re: that everyone isn''t doing it the correct way, and eventually some of us are gonna get screwed unless we do it just like her & her hubby did it. I am not an expert and didn''t really know how to respond to her, other than to tell her that "I and the diamond" were being taken care of very well, and when we insure, it will be with a reputable company.

Chat with you soon, & Have a great day!

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 7/24/2006 8:50:26 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Here’s the case that I showed Rockdoc.

It’s a Massachusetts case that involves a jeweler representing himself as an appraiser of merchandise that he sold and that was subsequently found to be misgraded by a single color grade. The plantiff was awarded triple damages plus attorney fees because this was found to be an ''unfair and deceptive practice''.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) CGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Hi Neil ~

Thanks for posting. This was very interesting, especially it going back to 10 years ago. I thought that at some point in all sales, there would possibly be a statute of limitations, or something else that would hinder the length of time and when one could actually take action.

This reminds me of some "Maul" stores that claim they can grade, but have no professional training or credentials what so ever.

Thanks for sharing, and have a nice day!

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 7/24/2006 11:29:37 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Thanks Neil for the detailed information.

I feel armed with knowledge, I can go back to the table and actually have some input.

I appreciate your time and expertise in sharing with us here.

Thank you, and have a wonderful day.

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 7/24/2006 6:15:12 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 7/23/2006 5:19:21 PM
Author: Mrs Darlin Joy

I have heard that no matter how good the ''Non-Independant Appraisal'' is ... it is subject to scrutiny & perhaps bias from the insurance company''s perspective. I have done a lot of insurance replacement work and have NEVER heard of this. Adjusters love to have detailed descriptions that allow them to replace the item exactly. Their binder is in effect a contract with you as to what they will replace the item with. If your appriasal reads that you have a branded item and the amount of insurance is adequate, then that is what they will replace your item with.

This "I have heard" came from the "lunch lady". She was really laying her spiel on thickly, and had me second guessing what I thought I knew. I know she scared the others who don''t know to much about this subject, as it is not their field of study. I am not a professional, but I did think this was an odd statement, as there are some jewelers that are more experienced and trained than others, who can provide reports and do certain analysis than others. She knew what reports and analysis that my diamond came with, hers did not ... and she tried to use me as an example to the others that even someone like myself, absolutely should get an independent appraisal or in the end, you would get a sub-standard diamond substitute in the event of a loss.

I have heard that having an un-biased Independant Appraisal is better to have in your corner if anything should ever happen to your diamond, so in the end, the company has a more difficult time trying to replace your diamond with just any diamond that is a J SI1 in your ct size. I have heard that if you have an Independant appraisal, an appraisal that list''s specifically the qualities of your diamond that make it unique, that you have more power in your corner to get exactly what you got the first time around, without too much hassel. Sounds a very lot like something an independant appraiser might tell you if they were of ''questionable'' ethics. If you have an appraisal from the vendor that lists every thing about the diamond, such as the cut, color clarity, BRAND NAME (if appropriate) etc, then you have just as adequate an appraisal as you would receive from any independant appraiser. For someone to tell you differently in order to scare you into buying their service when they know it not to be true is just plain wrong. Maybe they do things differently in the East, but here in Idaho I have had several adjusters tell me that they were incredibly happy with the quality of my appraisals as it always made their job easier, and NEVER has any one of them questioned it in the rare times that one needed to be acted upon.

Again, this was the "lunch lady". I asked her who did her independent appraisal, and also who she insure''s her jewelry with, and she said she didn''t know. I don''t know if this was true or not, but it sure seems a little odd that she had so much information to share, up until the point of who she went to. By the way Wink, I am not on the East, I am a fellow state neighbor (Or), and Idaho is very beautiful!

I know that certain insurance company''s are different from eachother and their policies that they carry, but I guess in general, wouldn''t it be best to get an Independant appraisal for Insurance purposes? No, it would be best to get a complete and accurate appraisal with ALL of the pertinent information, regardless of whether it was independant or non-dependant...

Wink, this sums up what I was originally thinking. I told the ladies that if they had an established relationship with a jeweler that they trusted, and that they felt that if the jeweler gave them enough pertinent info on their diamonds and their insurance company was ok with it, and they were covered, they shouldn''t just freak out that they didn''t get an Independent appraisal. It wasn''t going to be the end of the world.

I told them that there are many different reasons a person "might" chose to get an independent appraisal, not just get one becuase you didn''t trust the jeweler, or make sure the jeweler didn''t pull some wool over your eyes. I know some people want verification that after the diamond is set, that the diamond and ring setting weren''t damaged or compromised. I gave other reasons why one "might" choose to get an independent appraisal, however, "lunch lady" kept trying to sway the others about "if you don''t ... your gonna get burned alive." I personally think that "choice" in your given situation is good.

I am going to answer in the body of your quote in black for clarity in answering all of your questions. Then I will finish my comments here.

All of the above having been said, I would take a non-independat appraisal from Jonathon over all but a few of the independant appraisals I have ever seen. (Me too! There has never been any question on my part as to the depth and expertise of his reports and knowledge.) We have a complement of extraordinarily good appraisers here on PriceScope so I am sure that it was none of them telling you that a non independant appraisal was subject to extra scrutiny (Of course not ... "The Lunch Lady" is responsible for the partial second guessing on my part, and the mass hysteria on the other ladies who feel that they are going to get burned alive if they don''t run out this very second and get an I.A!). If you saw what the average appraisal lookied like you would be appalled. (A ladies diamond ring with a one carat diamond. $10,000). Now that is an appraisal that needed an independant appraiser in the worst way!

Wink

Thanks Wink for your candor and comentary. I have always appreciated your input, even when I was part of another forum long ago. Your expertise is always appreciated and welcome!

Take care, and have a wonderful day!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Mrs DJ,

Not that you need another comment from me

, but I thought I''d add that I plan to have my ring sent back to Jonathan, if I have it set elsewhere, just so he can look at it and check the stone, etc. before sending it to me. I''m going setting shopping tomorrow!