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Ind. Appraiser Questions – Tycoon (brand) experience w/ cut grading?

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DiamondDumbie

Rough_Rock
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I am searching for an independent appraiser who has evaluated a Tycoon (brand) cut diamond. I want to have the cut evaluated and receive a grading for Brilliancy, Sparkle and Intensity.


Any Independent Appraisers who have evaluated a Tycoon cut?


Any Independent Appraisers who have the ability to provide a cut grade for a Tycoon cut?


Thank you in advance!!

http://www.tycooncut.com/
 
You’re looking for a gemological report, not an appraisal. Direct light performance reports are available from Dave Atlas (who also does appraisals) with his ImaGem system. Gemex has a fair number of dealers around the country with their Brilliancescope tool that may provide what you’re looking for but I no of no appraisers who have one since Rockdoc passed away. EGL-USA has a system that I'm told is based on the ImaGem technology. GCAL offers a report with this kind of data that I think is similar in style to the Gemex approach.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver
 
Thanks Neil. It is not really possible to rank a Tycoon cut against others of its identical cut style or against similar styles of cut. While we can measure light return and some other elements, we can''t discern which you would prefer the look of. Face it, a Tycoon cut or any other non-round is likely not to perform at the high light return level of a super round cut. It will have its own character and personality. It can be wonderful, beautiful, different, etc, but I''d hesitate to think that it can eb compared to a top round for any legitimate purpose.

We choose things that are different all the time. We don''t all march in lock step. I''d strongly suggest comparing two or three of any fancy shape or branded cut to others of the same cut and brand. Also compare them to unbranded, similar shapes for appearance and value. Then make a choice based on enough knowledge to feel comfortable. you don''t have to become an expert to give a gift symbolizing your love and committment. Its wonderful when you are totally happy with a deal, but the symbolic nature of the diamond gift is of very high importance to the recipient.
 
Date: 7/25/2007 1:29:35 PM
Author: denverappraiser
You’re looking for a gemological report, not an appraisal. Direct light performance reports are available from Dave Atlas (who also does appraisals) with his ImaGem system. Gemex has a fair number of dealers around the country with their Brilliancescope tool that may provide what you’re looking for but I no of no appraisers who have one since Rockdoc passed away. EGL-USA has a system that I''m told is based on the ImaGem technology. GCAL offers a report with this kind of data that I think is similar in style to the Gemex approach.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver


Thank you for your comments. I actually just read an older thread a few days ago and spent some time going through Rockdoc''s website because another consumer recommended him as an appraiser. Until now, I had no idea that he had passed away.

I actually do need an appraisal, but I am also interested in a gemological report, as you call it. I want to have the Tycoon branded cut diamond evaluated for light performance. I realize it is not going to perform like an ideal round cut. However, I thought it would be beneficial to ensure this branded cut does not allow a lot of light leakage, etc.


I have a retailer who offered to evaluate the Tycoon cut diamond with their Brillancescope. However, I have read recommendations that an appraiser who offers this service is typically not bias and a competing retailer may be.


 
Date: 7/25/2007 1:53:28 PM
Author: oldminer
Thanks Neil. It is not really possible to rank a Tycoon cut against others of its identical cut style or against similar styles of cut. While we can measure light return and some other elements, we can''t discern which you would prefer the look of. Face it, a Tycoon cut or any other non-round is likely not to perform at the high light return level of a super round cut. It will have its own character and personality. It can be wonderful, beautiful, different, etc, but I''d hesitate to think that it can eb compared to a top round for any legitimate purpose.

We choose things that are different all the time. We don''t all march in lock step. I''d strongly suggest comparing two or three of any fancy shape or branded cut to others of the same cut and brand. Also compare them to unbranded, similar shapes for appearance and value. Then make a choice based on enough knowledge to feel comfortable. you don''t have to become an expert to give a gift symbolizing your love and committment. Its wonderful when you are totally happy with a deal, but the symbolic nature of the diamond gift is of very high importance to the recipient.



Mr. Atlas,

I had also reviewed your website and services. However, it does not sound like you believe a light performance is possible for the Tycoon brand cut. Is this correct?


I was under the impression that your ImaGem or a Brillancescope would evaluate and rate light performance for all diamond cuts. However, it sounds like these light evaluation devices are based on certain cut specifications or round cut specifications.

Is it even possible to evaluate the light performance of a Tycoon cut, beside looking at it with a set of eyes?
 
Date: 7/25/2007 6:50:02 PM
Author: DiamondDumbie

Is it even possible to evaluate the light performance of a Tycoon cut, beside looking at it with a set of eyes?
It''s possible to evaluate light performance, but it won''t be possible to evaluate it compared to others of its kind---namely, other Tycoon cuts. Anything else will be like comparing apples to, well, maybe not oranges, but perhaps like trying to compare a Red Delicious with an Asian Pear. There''s just no basis upon which to figure out what an ideal Tycoon looks like.
 
Asian Pears are delicious.
 
Date: 7/25/2007 1:07:01 PM
Author:DiamondDumbie

I am searching for an independent appraiser who has evaluated a Tycoon (brand) cut diamond. I want to have the cut evaluated and receive a grading for Brilliancy, Sparkle and Intensity.

You fellas just crack me up sometimes!
3.gif
It''s like you want to debunk-or-prove accurate the marketing hype around a particular branded cut ... Of course THEY, the MAKERS of the cut think it''s the coolest thing around -- the best ever. But who, in the know can step back and say -- hmmm, compared to rounds this stone is STINKO!

But what you''re missing is the fact that this isn''t laundry detergent (50% cleaner! Your whites are EVEN WHITER!) or home electronics (more pixels = REALISTIC) ... it''s more like FINE ART. Do you prefer Picasso or Monet? What kind of art expert is gonna say that Picassos are 75% more vibrant than impressionist paintings??

Sure, there''s some "science" to it but if you''re drawn to the hair-splitting scientific dynamics of "brillance & sparkle & intensity" -- then you should probably stick to AGS 0 Rounds & Princesses. That''s where the knowledge is. That''s where the "perfection" lies -- currently. Maybe one day we''ll get to know all the things you want to know. But it ain''t happening before your 5th anniversary.
4.gif
 
Basically, it sounds like there is no need to pay for a light performance analysis on a Tycoon.

If it looks good enough, then it is good enough. If something looks better, then get that something else.

I have gone on this tangent before. However, how can Cut affect the value of a diamond when nobody agrees on how to evaluate Cut? And of the Four C''s - Cut is suppose to have the greatest affect on the value!?!?

Simply illogical! I do not understand the diamond industry. It is truly perplexing. At times, I believe it is not by accident. Despite, what I hear.

I want to get my girlfriend a great ring she (we both) will appreciate. However, at times like this, I almost want to give her a box full of money instead.
 
Generally, only round brilliants can be quantitatively compared to each other in terms of cut. That doesn''t mean cut doesn''t matter in other instances, it just means that you will have to compare more qualitatively and subjectively. Part of what you pay for in a branded stone is reliability and consistency; if you don''t trust that the makers of the Tycoon diamond provide that, then maybe that''s a reason not to pay the premium they are asking for.

Anyway, if you''re really trying to knock everything down to numbers, then why turn to a branded, ''unique'' cut at all? If it''s all in the numbers, then you should follow the numbers, as nothing under such a view can be ''unique'' in any meaningful way. If you want quantifiable performance, look at round brilliants. If you still want a fancy shape, pick a brand that you trust enough to buy from without worrying too much about whether they''ve cut the stone just right. After all, why pay a premium for a branded cut unless they consistently cut their stones well?
 
Date: 7/25/2007 7:27:01 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 7/25/2007 1:07:01 PM
Author:DiamondDumbie

I am searching for an independent appraiser who has evaluated a Tycoon (brand) cut diamond. I want to have the cut evaluated and receive a grading for Brilliancy, Sparkle and Intensity.

You fellas just crack me up sometimes!
3.gif
It''s like you want to debunk-or-prove accurate the marketing hype around a particular branded cut ... Of course THEY, the MAKERS of the cut think it''s the coolest thing around -- the best ever. But who, in the know can step back and say -- hmmm, compared to rounds this stone is STINKO!

But what you''re missing is the fact that this isn''t laundry detergent (50% cleaner! Your whites are EVEN WHITER!) or home electronics (more pixels = REALISTIC) ... it''s more like FINE ART. Do you prefer Picasso or Monet? What kind of art expert is gonna say that Picassos are 75% more vibrant than impressionist paintings??

Sure, there''s some ''science'' to it but if you''re drawn to the hair-splitting scientific dynamics of ''brillance & sparkle & intensity'' -- then you should probably stick to AGS 0 Rounds & Princesses. That''s where the knowledge is. That''s where the ''perfection'' lies -- currently. Maybe one day we''ll get to know all the things you want to know. But it ain''t happening before your 5th anniversary.
4.gif

Cut is not art. Cut is a science. Cut is done to a certain specification so that it affects the value. Therefore, these specificaitons can be measured and catergorized to certain value ranges. Just like the round cut specifications.

This is important because you would not want to pay top dollar for an original Picasso that was actually a fake Picasso. Science determines if the painting is an original or a fake. This is the only way you know you payed top dollar for an original Picasso. Otherwise, you have people going around selling fake Picasso art for the price of an original Picasso.

Since there are no standards, there are diamond sellers who are selling diamonds for higher prices because they sell them as if they are higher quality. Who is to say what the quality is if you nobody agrees on what quality actually is? Sound confussing? Well...it is and it does not have to be.

No two houses are a like. Yet there are standards to determine the value of homes. The home industry is not as intellegent as the diamond industry. Perhaps, this is why the home industry has standards and the diamond industry has resisted standarization.
 
Date: 7/25/2007 7:31:38 PM
Author: DiamondDumbie
how can Cut affect the value of a diamond when nobody agrees on how to evaluate Cut? And of the Four C''s - Cut is suppose to have the greatest affect on the value!?!?

My GUESS is that probably 75%, maybe even 85% of diamonds large enough to be sufficiently analyzed (i.e. "center stone" size) are ROUND or PRINCESS cuts.

Fancy cuts & especially BRANDED fancy cuts come & go ... there are too many of them and none of them are popular enough to warrent the time that''s gone in to analysing and "perfecting" the top two shapes. Even well-marketed, trendy Tiffany cuts ... you just kinda have to trust that they know what they''re doing and BELIEVE that your stone is top notch.

Part of the reason fancy cuts AREN''T as popular -- they''re so hard to choose. You have to take a leap of FAITH, trust your own eyes etc. etc. Most people simply don''t have the stomach for it. Do you?
 
style="WIDTH: 99.62%; HEIGHT: 259px">Date: 7/25/2007 7:43:05 PM
Author: DiamondDumbie


Cut is not art. Cut is a science. Cut is done to a certain specification so that it affects the value. Therefore, these specificaitons can be measured and catergorized to certain value ranges. Just like the round cut specifications.

This is important because you would not want to pay top dollar for an original Picasso that was actually a fake Picasso. Science determines if the painting is an original or a fake. This is the only way you know you payed top dollar for an original Picasso. Otherwise, you have people going around selling fake Picasso art for the price of an original Picasso.

Since there are no standards, there are diamond sellers who are selling diamonds for higher prices because they sell them as if they are higher quality. Who is to say what the quality is if you nobody agrees on what quality actually is? Sound confussing? Well...it is and it does not have to be.

No two houses are a like. Yet there are standards to determine the value of homes. The home industry is not as intellegent as the diamond industry. Perhaps, this is why the home industry has standards and the diamond industry has resisted standarization.
I think your analysis is a little too simplistic. You are conflating the ability of science to test for definable results and the ability to confirm the normative value of such results. The former is sound; the latter is not. While science can measure light return, it cannot determine for you which shapes or forms of light return are aesthetically preferable. Would you rather the sparkle and fire of a round brilliant, or the deep, clearly-defined steps of an Asscher-cut? Even if science can tell you which stone returns more light, it cannot tell you how much you should value the qualitative aspect of that light return. So, perhaps the round brilliant returns 20% more light than the Asscher-cut: is that enough to offset my preference for the shape and step-like appearance of the Asscher-cut? How do I quantify and valuate such a preference? There may be cultural, emotional, psychological, or philosophical reasons why I prefer one form of light return over another. These cannot be quantified, yet they are vary real preferences worth weighing.

Thus, while houses, cars, diamonds, etc., have certain characteristics that can be quantifiably measured, such quantifiable measures are only relevant within a context that incorporates qualitative preferences as well.
 
Date: 7/25/2007 7:43:05 PM
Author: DiamondDumbie
Cut is not art. Cut is a science. Cut is done to a certain specification so that it affects the value. Therefore, these specificaitons can be measured and catergorized to certain value ranges. Just like the round cut specifications.
I wholehearteldy disagree. The value of ANY stone is the most someone is willing to pay for it. And every stone starts out differently - it''s an artists eye (aided by computer modeling) that decides what shape would best suit that rough material & how to maximize profits. Since rounds & princesses sell better - perhaps rough that would make excellent asschers & pears & tycoons is being used to make rounds. Peoples PREFERENCES determine "value" - why else would there be a dozen differnt types of Round Brilliant stones? Why wouldn''t there just be one ideal perfect way to cut them?

It seems like you''re frustrated & that''s understandable. Have you ever seen diamonds being cut? By hand. It is indeed art. If only it was as quantifiable as you wish it to be -- but then it would lack SOUL.
 
Your premise is false and that’s what’s leading to your frustration. The job of the cutter is not to maximize face up light return in all stones and prices are not set as a function of this measurement. Some stones are cut to maximize optical behavior as measured by some of the various tools while others are not. Tycoons are not. They are cut to achieve a particular look from the facet pattern.

Comparing their light return against other non-Tycoon stones and observing a difference won’t do you much good and standing on their own the measurements are useless because you have no benchmark for what would constitute the ‘perfect’ Tycoon. Comparing it against other Tycoons to see which is best requires a dataset from measuring other Tycoons. The obvious source of this data would be the manufacturer and they’ve not opted to provide it. A sufficiently motivated party could do the study you want by examining a few dozen or a few hundred Tycoons but this is both expensive and logistically quite difficult without cooperation from the manufacturer and the only people who could gain enough to consider funding such a study would be the manufacturer themselves. Since they seem to have no interest in making it easier for you to shop one of their stones against another on this basis, they won’t do it and you’ve reached a dead end, hence the frustration. This may be a reason to avoid their products, that’s up to you. It depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. There are plenty of other cutters, mostly of rounds but also of princess, emerald and Asscher cuts and even cushions who are tickled to compete on this basis if this is your objective.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
In terms of the technology available today...I''m guessing you''re hearing from the source, and have more or less (?) the straight dope, when you hear:

"Thanks Neil. It is not really possible to rank a Tycoon cut against others of its identical cut style or against similar styles of cut. While we can measure light return and some other elements, we can''t discern which you would prefer the look of. Face it, a Tycoon cut or any other non-round is likely not to perform at the high light return level of a super round cut. It will have its own character and personality. It can be wonderful, beautiful, different, etc, but I''d hesitate to think that it can eb compared to a top round for any legitimate purpose."

But...I don''t know. Don''t we hear about jobbies like the solasfera, and some excitement about how they''re better than a round. Can''t we know? One would have hoped the promise of direct measurement would help us know.

I''m no engineer, and I can appreciate that protocols, to run these things, need to be put in place, but regardless...


Date: 7/26/2007 8:00:17 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Your premise is false and that’s what’s leading to your frustration. The job of the cutter is not to maximize face up light return in all stones and prices are not set as a function of this measurement. Some stones are cut to maximize optical behavior as measured by some of the various tools while others are not. Tycoons are not. They are cut to achieve a particular look from the facet pattern.
...ya know...when I go to McDonalds...regardless of how I want to trick that person behind the counter...getting their egg mcmuffin, fries, or a combination, including a drink..when I give them $5, I want correct change!
 
A diamond''s only function is to look nice. Treating it like like a Formula 1 race car that''s being tuned to extract the maximum horsepower per liter is missing the point.

A mirror has close to 100% light return, but would you prefer one on her finger to a diamond?
 
Date: 7/26/2007 12:53:08 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
A mirror has close to 100% light return, but would you prefer one on her finger to a diamond?
Exactly! Fingers crossed Diamonddumbie has his "a-ha moment" a.s.a.p.
 
Iv seen a few tycoon cut diamonds and was not impressed a well cut EC blows them away in brightness, fire and scintillation.
But they are likely a little better than the average EC out there(that is pretty bad).
 
Unless the firm which cuts the Tycoon Cut becomes interested in having all their production graded with ImaGem, I sort of doubt we will independently come up with sufficient samples of this cut style to grade it on its own merits. Perhaps grading them against emerald cuts will be something we can do, but I think it might not be a fair test. Obviosuly, emerald cuts and Tycoon Cut are faceted differently. beauty in them will rise and fall at somewhat differing levels of Brilliance, Sparkel and Intensity. To arbitrarily equate one shape with another will more than likely prove a faulty strategy.

If we can''t do the the job crrectly, we prefer to remain patient and build the database of comparables. Once we have graded a couple hundred varied diamonds of a single shape and faceting style, we can grade that family. We don''t compare accross shapes or against widely different faceting styles. I think we have gone down the correct path with this.

Until the devices do it better than our own eyes, I will continue to promote screening with parameters and using one''s own vision along with expert opinion assistance. It is a method which has proven itself useful and safe over many years.
 
Sorry, haven''t been able to keep up with the other new thread on this...

But, Dave, your recent comments made me think of this...

EndoEctoMeso.gif
 
Relatedly...

JohnQ, in the other thread, you note:

"GIA''s cut grade is based on external measurements (proportions).
Certain proportions sets have proven to be consistent performers. The system is limited to the round brilliant for now."

But...that''s not really, purportedly true, is it. Purportedly, they matched up indications of clinically noted observations with proportion sets, to get some preferences, right.

You could say attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder...

But you can get a pattern. Also, you might ideally go through one or two levels of abstractions to get the pattern to work.

Isn''t this what Sergey''s ETAS are about?

AttracVsUnattrac.jpg
 
Date: 7/26/2007 12:53:08 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
A diamond''s only function is to look nice. Treating it like like a Formula 1 race car that''s being tuned to extract the maximum horsepower per liter is missing the point.

A mirror has close to 100% light return, but would you prefer one on her finger to a diamond?
*stands up and claps*

Well said CaptAubrey!

Diamonds are NOT a science, when it comes to all cuts. They are a hybrid of science and art. Science is exacting. When human hands cut and polish stones that is a craft. The polishers are known as craftsmen, not scientists. One can study the science of cut, but to say that diamonds and the market for diamonds is a science that is like looking at the world through a straw! I would venture to say this site is a microcosm of maybe 5% of the diamond buyers who analyze stones this much. All the rest of the world''s diamonds are purchased using the best tool we have. Our eyes and nothing more...
 
Yes, I think we can agree that the fellow on the top of the pyramid is the nicest looking. We don't need any special tools. Our brains happen to be quite miraculous. We increasingly deal with people who would really prefer machines to help them make informed decisions. We do depend on such devices for many other things, so it is a logical thing that is being asked of us. Technology will follow the demand for this advice. It is only a matter of time, not a matter of doing the impossible. I like things the way they are, but we are not sitting still. Things are changing and I find myself interested and participating in these changes. I plan to contribute in a positive way to these changes so that consumers and the trade benefit from technology.
 
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