Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Inclusion at corner and Diamond Integrity

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
S

Sozekeyserman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
27
Edit: Corrected the inclusion type at the corner... it's not a cloud but two feathers.

Hi all, I had a question about inclusions and integrity.

I'm currently considering a princess cut diamond, F/VS2. The internet vendor has seen the stone, and he was positive about the stone, although I'm still waiting on a Sarin report, and he mentioned some imperfections near the corner.

He mentions there are some natural feathers near one of the corners of the princess, which has a girdle ranging from S-Thk to Thk. Would/Could this imperfection create any problems with the integrity of the diamond, especially since it is near a more vulnerable portion of the diamond? I currently only have the GIA report for other information, with the basics listed below. I hope to have a Sarin report listed by today.

What other information would be helpful in determining if this inclusions could create a stability issue? Let me know and I'll try to get it if more is needed. Thanks for your help!

Soze


Diamond Statistics

Certificate: GIA
Shape: Princess
Carat: 1.23
Color: F
Clarity: VS2

Diamond Proportions:
Length to Width
Ratio: 1.00
Measurements: 5.78-5.76-4.13
Depth Percentage: 71.7 %
Table Percentage: 70 %
Girdle: S.TK-TK
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None (Inert)
Sarin Pending
Photograph Pending
 

Hi all, I have the Sarin report and photo of the diamond. What do you all think, especially about my question of the cloud near the corner?


The photo is attached to the post, here is the Sarin data. The GIA report will be released soon.


Width 5.76 mm
Length 5.80 mm
L/W: 1.01
Total Depth 4.14mm (71.9%)
Table: 4.06 x 4.03 x 4.10 mm (69.9%)
Crown Ht: 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.76 mm (13.0%)
Pavil Dep: 3.15 x 3.13 x 3.18 mm (54.7%)
Girdle: 3.3%
Thanks!


Pcut123ct.JPG
 
Can you get a darkfield picture of the inclusions?
Usualy inclusions around the corner area are bad news but with the fat girdle and depending on type and location might not be a problem.
 
Hi Strmrdr,

I don''t believe it''s possible at this point. The internet vendor says he doesn''t have the capability to take a 10x image with a scope. Because of this, he probably doesn''t have darkfield either, right?

While I''m on the subject, is it normal for internet vendors to not be able to give the customer a 10x image?

Soze
 
Yea no 10x likely no darkfield either.
Most of the 10x shots are taken with a microscope with photo adapter and not all vendors have them but they should.

One of the experts is going to have to help you on this from the info provided I cant call it one way or the other maybe they can.
 
Here''s the GIA report of the locations of the imperfections.

pcutfeathers.JPG
 
just saw the correction.
2 feathers id call pass.
 
Date: 7/29/2005 4:57:53 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Get it appraised.

This sort of question is way beyond what could be thoughtfully answered without examining the stone.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...

I agree totally with Neil. This is one of those instances that meaningful analysis and conclusion should be made by someone who is experienced and who has the proper credentials.

While consumer comment is helpful and useful to new readers, about FACTS learned by non-professionals, analysis comments without seeing the diamond in MOST cases is not helpful. It is sometimes very misleading.

Storm.... This stone may be a great stone that may have no potential problem relevant to its "stability" or durability, and it could also be a nightmare just waiting to happen. To arbitrarilly say pass without being an expert and without seeing the stone, isn''t helping the consumer or his seller. Writing opinion that is relied on, even with the disclaimer at the bottom of your posts saying you aren''t an expert isn''t going to shield you - if someone suffers a loss. Suppose the stone isn''t a problem and you unfairly cost the person selling it his sale? I know your intentions are certainly not malicious, and in many cases what you write is helpful, but I think all the experts would think a lot more highly of leaving the gemological or valuation issue conclusions to them.

New readers of the site can choose to seek non-professional opinion and in many cases that is sort of foolish. But it is thier choice.

All of the experts that freely comment only do so when its the proper thing to do. I am sure Rich Sherwood, Marty Haske, Dave Atlas, Neil Beaty and many other who have completed the proper educational requirements. We all do try to be helpful to readers.. although if any expert here disagrees with me say so. If I am incorrect, I always wish to learn about it, so I can be better each day.


Cordially

Rockdoc
 
RockDoc,
1> why hassle with it when there are plenty of diamonds out there without issues.
2> yelling send the diamond to an appraiser.. wow gee I just happen to be one. hmmm wonder where that advice came from.
Im see way too much of it lately from appraisers and not liking it one bit.
3> someone wants to sue me over a comment on an internet board bring it on.
4> I said "id call pass". Hmmm what does that mean?
Well for someone who dont understand what id means it is "I would call pass" What does that mean?
hmmmm well it sure looks like it means that if it was me i would pass on it.
So someone is going to sue me for saying what I would do in a certain situation. Good luck :}
 
Putting aside this particular princess for a moment, how often are VS2 inclusions cause for concern?

We bought a VS2 because we thought that was the cut-off point for inclusions that might cause trouble. I can barely see the inclusions in my stone on the GIA plot, let alone in the diamond itself.

So how many VS2s out there have honkin'' boogers? Is VS2 not as safe as it sounds?
 
Whoa, while we that are are so very thankful for the graduated gemologists on this forum I am going to add that Stormy makes sense.

Yes the feathers could be nothing, but being that princesses like rounds are everywhere and cut so very nicely and with clear parameters known for cut quality, why should the guy spend the money on a stone and an appraissor that may have fatal flaws.

He has not even seen the stone yet and probably is not attached to it.

Feathers near the edge- Looks like near where the prong goes. I would run too!! Where did I get this information from? Gemologists on these forums!

Ask those venders if these feathers break the surface in writting and see what they say.
 
I agree that Storm made a good point in that inclusions on the edge of a princess cut COULD potentially cause a problem with the stone in question. The thing is that all of us have learned a great deal from the true experts here and when a stone comes up and there is a question those that have learned a great deal try to help the poster. Pointing a finger at any of us saying that we could lose a sale for the seller defeats the whole purpose of this forum. People come here for advice and we are trying our best to give them just that. No more and no less. Just an honest opinion, that is what PS is all about. We can be wrong sometimes but we also want to learn. So ease up on the finger pointing. JMHO.
 
i agree this stone would need examination by a professional to determine any durability issues that may or may not be present. however, as strm mentioned, there are many stones out there that don''t have any issues and to send this to an appraiser at this point seems unecessary. it would be different if the purchaser had actually seen this stone and compared it to others leaving only the inclusion to question, but that is not the case. this stone has not even been seen. obviously the decision to send the stone for further evaluation is up to the purchaser. and yes, soze, if there is no doubt in your mind that you want this stone, by all means get it examined by a professional first. keep in mind however, there are plenty of stones out there that do not have issues and do not need to be professionally examined.

rockdoc,
well....hmmmmmm.......i''m not sure why you thought it was necessary to be belligerent towards strm regarding his opinion on the stone. he wasn''t giving gemological advice, he was giving logical advice. there ARE plenty of stones out there that don''t have problems. why waste extra time and money on a stone you''ve never seen that may have problems. it''s easy enough to find one that doesn''t. and to say that he may be doing a disservice and costing a sale is ridiculous. the seller himself is doing more of a disservice by not offering 10x photos.
38.gif
 
Rockdoc the more I think about what you said the more ticked off I get about it.
But Im not going to comment further other than this:
I can see where your agenda is and the contempt you have for consumers who do their best to help others here and unlike you they dont get money out of it.
I will just let your own words speak for you and about you.
 
RockDoc,

Attacking consumers or threatening them is not permitted on this forum as well as offering your own services. Please revisit the forum policies.

We always recommend checking diamonds with independent appraisers for consumers if they want to be certain. We also have a free listing of such appraisers.

However, some consumers prefer getting other people''s opinions and post questions on the forum before shipping and paying for appraisals. Any consumer is entitled to offer their personal opinion and those who asked the question are capable of making their own decision.
 
i agree with strm.consumers can''t afford to send every stone to an appraiser that we''re considering,other wise we all go broke.i would only send the stone to an appraiser if i''m 90% sure about the stone,after i talk to the vendor in detail.
 
Date: 7/29/2005 4:30:08 PM
Author: Sozekeyserman
Here''s the GIA report of the locations of the imperfections.
Click to expand...
1) A VS2 inclusion shouldn''t have any durability issues, but one must remember that plots are sometimes not very informative

2) I totally agree with Niel and RockDoc, that if you want an INFORMED opinion, regarding any durability issues I would have it examined by an expert, not rely on uniformed commentary by the peanut gallery.

3) In general, I don''t like Princess cuts, PERIOD, because the pointed corners. I especially cringe when someone picks up a Princess cut like you show in the Photograph. Too much pressure, like with locking tweezers, can cause breakage at the points.

4) RockDoc does some really interesting and origtinal light analyses of Princess cuts

5) I respecfully disagree with Leonid regarding RockDocs comments, in that, if a UNKNOWN ANONOMOUS consumer attacks a professionals motives, then the Professional should have the right to hit back. I usually do it with a baseball bat and have been admonished for that, but that is life

6) By the way, it is my understanding in talking with an attorney friend in Canada, that liable in Canada is not treated lightly, in fact it might be a criminal offense, not civil, and that Leonid''s protection of UNKNOWN "CONSUMERS" may be considered as aiding and abeting any criminal or civil offense committed on this forum

6) Just Professional observations regarding diamonds and lay opinions regarding the law..

Marty
 
  1. Diamond and jewelry industry still have a long way ahead to gain consumer's trust. You cannot do it without consumers, attacking them and being arrogant. You can do it, however by being professional and educating consumers.
  2. Nobody said in that thread that consumer should not use professional opinion.
  3. Unfortunately, some experts are irritated when consumers express their own opinion.
  4. These experts are forgetting that the same consumers pay their bills.
  5. Many appraisers are getting free business leads from this site. This is perfectly fine as long as they offer professional advice, education and valuable service to consumer community.
  6. However, attacking consumers who disagree with your opinion is rude and against the forum rules.
  7. Appraisers are not the saints. Their professional opinion can also be wrong. As with the grading reports, it is a subjective opinion.
  8. During 5+ year history of Pricescope, we collect consumers' feedbacks on appraisers. We were ashamed to learn that some appraisers although claim independence used to stir business to other vendors who are their favorites. We also know cases when appraisers do make mistakes and musgrade diamonds.
  9. The only way to solve these problem is to be open and share as much information with consumers, not with the baseball bat as Mr. Haske suggested.
  10. Finally, those experts who are not happy with the situation that consumers can voice their opinion on this forum and the way the forum is moderated should not use it.
Adamasgem:
6) By the way, it is my understanding in talking with an attorney friend in Canada, that liable in Canada is not treated lightly, in fact it might be a criminal offense, not civil, and that Leonid's protection of UNKNOWN "CONSUMERS" may be considered as aiding and abetting any criminal or civil offense committed on this forum
Click to expand...
Mr. Haske, In your future discussions with your attorney, please try to find out exactly what criminal or civil offence has been committed on this forum. Or whether any law has been broken at all. Otherwise, such statements sound paranoid.

Please also show your attorney forum's ToS, which you all agreed upon when signing to the forum.
 
Hi all,

This has been an informative and heated discussion. When I began this post, I did not want to seek a determinate position, which I agree with Neil, Rockdoc and adamasgem would definitley require expert opinion on the matter. I want to know could those feathers create a greater chance of a stability problem? If so, I''m not excited to pay $90 in shipping/insurance/appraisal fees to find out, considering the amount of diamonds on the market and the fact I''m not in a rush. I just wanted to know if the feathers were a possible early red flag that would say to keep looking, much like if a table is 80%.

Regarding adamasgem''s comments, that even picking a princess up by the corners may create an instability problem is especially concerning. If picking an unflawed princess up by the corners is concerning, what would that say about the stability of a princess with fractures at the corner?

I''m going to attempt to get a more clear picture of the feathers on Monday from the vendor. It looks as though one of those feathers may traverse the girdle from the plot, but only time will tell when I ask on Monday.

Lastly, Belle I completely agree with your comment on the lack of 10x photos. Amazingly, this is common among the internet vendors I''ve contacted. Before calling the stone in to this vendor, three other PS internet vendors are unable to provide 10x images. What gives?
 
There is a big gulf between advising consumers while educating them, and scaring consumers into a paranoid mindset.

A reasonable person wants to foster business and get people to purchase wisely using the best resources available. This can include education from experienced consumers, but it should be taken as only a part of what may be needed to be sure about a diamond. We have some very strong minded people involved in advising and appraising that react badly when challenged or confronted by other opinions that differ from their own.

All of this is openly seen in a forum such as Pricescope and people can readily draw their own conclusions about who to trust and who to have lingering doubts about. It takes not only knowledge, but quite a bit of diplomacy to be willing to see different points of view posted and to remain calm, cool and collected. There is little benefit to dismissing anyone''s opinion. It is better to state one''s own opinion and let others voice their''s as well. In this way, we all learn and benefit.
 
Hi all,

Just reading through this thread.

I am friendly with all the parties involved here, both consumers and tradesmen so what I say I''m calling from the hip as I see it.

I know Strm, Bill, Neil, Marty, Leo and respect the input and opinions of all of them so I take no sides here.

As I read this thread and particularly Bill''s comments which are under fire, I think too much is being read into RockDoc''s comments here. I don''t see anything malicious, attacking or degrading in RockDoc''s statements. Bill has said there may or may not be problems with the stone (as it could be said about ANY diamond posted here with this limited info) and with the very limited information that has been given on this stone, if Sozekeyserman REALLY wants to pursue this particular stone then the only way for him to really get the educated input about it would be to send it to an independant appraiser. In Bill''s post he didn''t even offer to do this for the man but simply stated that if he was sincerely interested in the stone this is the logical route to take and I would have to agree. VS2 stones generally do not have structural problems so even with the inclusions located where they are, I still do not see any red flags perse. While the Sarin data is useful, for princess cuts this is still not enough data to make an assessment so for that reason alone, if Sozekeyserman does not want to seek the services of an Internet vendor who provides the data he''s looking for there is only one alternative... pay the shipping and the appraisal fees and send it to an independant appraiser to find out if it is indeed what he is looking for.

strm... of all the consumers that participate on this forum you are perhaps one of the most educated and your advice is always sound and logical. While I am not the vendor who is helping Sozekeyserman, if it were my stone and hoped to make the sale I personally would appreciate (if I knew for a fact that the stone was *indeed* a winner) that nobody would make comments that might dissuade the consumer to the stone. I don''t know who the vendor is and has been stated it may or may not have issues, but I would not make a comment to pass on a stone unless I knew for sure that the stone really did have issues. At this point its really one big question mark so to advise for or counsel against the stone would be unfair either way in my opinion. I would be saying the same thing if you were to counsel for the stone with the same limited data that''s been given.

Sozekeyserman, you can only go one of 2 routes. If this stone sincerely does interest you and you don''t mind paying to get the facts on it (knowing light performance, all the Sarin data, reflector images, models, etc.) then you either pay to have this done by an appraiser who has the proper tools or seek out a vendor who provides the information you are looking for up front. NiceIce happens to be one and the consumers here can point you to others as well.

Kind regards,
 
Date: 7/30/2005 9:55:52 AM
Author: Pricescope

  1. Diamond and jewelry industry still have a long way ahead to gain consumer''s trust. You cannot do it without consumers, attacking them and being arrogant. You can do it, however by being professional and educating consumers.

    That is what we try to do.. Some won''t listen to our advice, and some annonmous consumers, intentinally, malliciously, or ignorantly, give misleading and incorrect advice, and I think the exchange may well be good. If you can''t stand the heat, get out of the frying pan.
  2. Nobody said in that thread that consumer should not use professional opinion.

    It was strongly, and WRONGLY suggested, that the opinions of an appraiser on this thread, were meant to drum up business for the appraiser.

  3. Unfortunately, some experts are irritated when consumers express their own opinion

    I would think that some dealers would also be irritated when uneducated consumers dismiss a stone, as they are when better educated experts tell the "truth". As to the particular stone in question, the VS feaathers shown probably are insignificant compared to what I have seen generally regarding cleavage, and especially the example putting excess pressure on the points of a Princess cut.

  4. These experts are forgetting that the same consumers pay their bills.

    And dealers pay Pricescopes bills. And apprasiers and dealers are soemtimes at odds with each other.

    As an example, when people ASK me about potential problems with a princess cut, I ALWAYS reccommend they buy a cut corner alternative, but that is only my opinion based on experiance. While some may be pretty, I think they are a setter''s nightmare waiting to happen,and quite a few are just an excuse to get maximum yield out of a stone.

    If I SEE a potential problem, I point it out, as is the appraiser''s professional responsibility to the client and any third party who might rely on the appraiser''s opinion.

    I was in a retail store one time, and overheard an accomplished female flimflam artist tell a consumer that Princess cuts and fancy shapes were more expensive than rounds. I bit my tougue, while the consumer was there, as i saw she was going to loose the sale anyway, but really told her off when the consumer left. Perhaps that is why I don''t do any appraisals for retail stores
    29.gif


  5. Many appraisers are getting free business leads from this site. This is perfectly fine as long as they offer professional advice, education and valuable service to consumer community.

    I think the vast majority of appraisers do so.

  6. However, attacking consumers who disagree with your opinion is rude and against the forum rules.

    I ask, is it against the forum rule for consumer''s to attack appraiser''s by making rude and offensing comment like " yelling send the diamond to an appraiser.. wow gee I just happen to be one. hmmm wonder where that advice came from." or unjustly attacking someones credibility and liabling them, such has happened on other threads


  7. Appraisers are not the saints. Their professional opinion can also be wrong. As with the grading reports, it is a subjective opinion.

    I have to agree with you. HOWEVER, it is a subjective opinion based on a knowledge base, not one based on lack of information and/or experiance.
  8. During 5+ year history of Pricescope, we collect consumers'' feedbacks on appraisers. We were ashamed to learn that some appraisers although claim independence used to stir business to other vendors who are their favorites. We also know cases when appraisers do make mistakes and musgrade diamonds.

    Well, that comment doesn''t apply to me.

    I treat all dealers equally. If people ask for my opinion on a stone they get it objectfuly, if they ask for my opinion of a dealer or cutter, his practices, his competativeness in the market, they get that also, That is a job of an appraiser, if asked to do so.

    As to making mistakes, both appraisers and labs make mistakes, and some labs make them intentionally, their grades tend to be a "little" skewed toward the, shall we say, trade''s perspective. Some labs are REALLY bad when it comes to this, and some who issue pre sale "paper" with numbers tend to be the most leniant in grading very aspect of a stone, let alone putting a number on it.

  9. The only way to solve these problem is to be open and share as much information with consumers, not with the baseball bat as Mr. Haske suggested.

    The "baseball bat" comment was in reference to those who have attacked me, as was done on another thread, in questioning my integrity.

  10. Finally, those experts who are not happy with the situation that consumers can voice their opinion on this forum and the way the forum is moderated should not use it.

    Well, I like to play in the sandbox sometimes. I think Pricescope and forums like it, has empowered consumers, which is a good thing, given, what I see as a general lack of credibility in the retail sector, especially among the chain stores.
Adamasgem:

6) By the way, it is my understanding in talking with an attorney friend in Canada, that liable in Canada is not treated lightly, in fact it might be a criminal offense, not civil, and that Leonid''s protection of UNKNOWN ''CONSUMERS'' may be considered as aiding and abetting any criminal or civil offense committed on this forum
Click to expand...
Mr. Haske, In your future discussions with your attorney, please try to find out exactly what criminal or civil offence has been committed on this forum. Or whether any law has been broken at all. Otherwise, such statements sound paranoid.

The attorney I spoke with happens to be a friend of mine in Canada, and we we speaking as friends, not professionally as attorney/client about liable laws in Canada, and as an aside, he mentioned that they were (or could be) criminal offenses in Canada, as opposed to the US where they are civil matters. Surely, comments on another thread came very close, if not in fact libelous. I''d be happy to give you his phone number if you want.


Please also show your attorney forum''s ToS, which you all agreed upon when signing to the forum.

Perhaps a particular "consumer" should read them also.
Click to expand...
 
Rhino:
if it were my stone and hoped to make the sale I personally would appreciate (if I knew for a fact that the stone was *indeed* a winner) that nobody would make comments that might dissuade the consumer to the stone.
Click to expand...
You have your opportunity to offer your professional opinion. Do you appreciate, however, when consumers praise your diamonds?

Willy Wonka: "I don''t care."
25.gif
 
Date: 7/30/2005 12:07:30 PM
Author: adamasgem


And dealers pay Pricescopes bills. And apprasiers and dealers are soemtimes at odds with each other.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Not all of them but thank you for reminding me. This diamond is listed on Pricescope by several advertisers. As Willy Wonka said, "I don''t care".

The owners/vendors of the diamond have an opportunity to come here and offer their opinion and provide consumers with all required information. It doesn''t mean that if a community member suggest to pass because of the possible problems, one has to threaten him with a legal actions.

Vendors who are able to be open with the community, will benefit from it. Those who cannot - tough luck.

Finally, we would like to propose the following to Sozekeyserman.

In order to get to the bottom of the feather issue, Pricescope is willing to cover shipping and appraisal expenses to get this stone shipped and analyzed by one of the following appraiser on condition that all the information will be documented and published here for open discussion

Dave Atlas (aka Oldminer)
Richard Sherwood
Neil Beaty (aka DenverAppraiser)

If you''re interested, please contact the vendor and one of these three appraisers and see whether it can be arranged on these conditions.
 
Hi all,

Let me first make a point expanding on Rhino''s thoughts. I agree with his insightful comments 100%. Rockdoc''s comments did not appear malicious or to have hidden agenda''s to me in any way, shape or form. He seems more of a purist at heart, and thus wanted an appraisal with evidence to speak for itself as opposed to likelyhoods or probabilities. As my profession is in the sciences, I have a special place in my heart for the pure truth. Yet on this particular issue I come from a more practical standpoint, such as where strmrdr, kimberly, kaleigh, belle, and Dancing Fire come from. That is to say I do not wish to pay to see a stone that has a potential "red flag" with such a large market of diamonds.

Now to the main point of interest. The particular problem of paying for shipping and appriasal has been alleviated by Leonid''s extremely generous and unsolicited offer. I am inclined to agree to his terms, although I must first discuss the matter this Monday morning with the vendor. One large point of negotiation between the vendor and I will have to take place before this arrangement can be acted upon. I''ll keep this thread updated when I discuss the issue on Monday.

With warm regards,

Soze
 

Wow Leonid what a generous offer! The community and Sozekeyserman will no doubt benefit a great deal.


This discussion and bantering back and forth between gemologists and regular self taught folks makes me think a great deal about one of my carreers. I have a license to practice a trade as well. I had to obtain a college degree for it, take a two day exam and am required to prove to the lic board that I continue learning year after year. I am qualified to sit on courts as an expert in my field.


In the hospital though physicians outrank me despite the fact they have no education in the complex machines and devices I use to keep people alive. Several times I have been confronted with a stubborn physician that assumes he is expert in the use of said equipment and was ordered to do things that are impossible or the patient would not tolerate them.

Since I and the patient are also experts of sorts "the patient knowing what his or her body and mind will tolerate" I believe we do have valid cases against the Medical doctors opinion. After all I am with the patient 12 hours a day the MD for 10 min at most.

I guess what I am trying to say here as that everyone is entitled to an opinion. Be it Rock Doc or Stormy. It is up to Sozekeyserman to form the final opinion. Us consumers are not getting any money out of this deal we are simply trying to help a fellow consumer by relaying info we learned from the experts.

We are telling him/her what we would do. The venders have said what they would do.




 
Date: 7/30/2005 3:23:58 PM
Author: Kimberly

Wow Leonid what a generous offer! The community and Sozekeyserman will no doubt benefit a great deal.



This discussion and bantering back and forth between gemologists and regular self taught folks makes me think a great deal about one of my carreers. I have a license to practice a trade as well. I had to obtain a college degree for it, take a two day exam and am required to prove to the lic board that I continue learning year after year. I am qualified to sit on courts as an expert in my field.



In the hospital though physicians outrank me despite the fact they have no education in the complex machines and devices I use to keep people alive. Several times I have been confronted with a stubborn physician that assumes he is expert in the use of said equipment and was ordered to do things that are impossible or the patient would not tolerate them.

Since I and the patient are also experts of sorts ''the patient knowing what his or her body and mind will tolerate'' I believe we do have valid cases against the Medical doctors opinion. After all I am with the patient 12 hours a day the MD for 10 min at most.

I guess what I am trying to say here as that everyone is entitled to an opinion. Be it Rock Doc or Stormy. It is up to Sozekeyserman to form the final opinion. Us consumers are not getting any money out of this deal we are simply trying to help a fellow consumer by relaying info we learned from the experts.

We are telling him/her what we would do. The venders have said what they would do.




Click to expand...

Hi Kimberly,

You have a very interesting position in your work. However your comparison I think is a little skewed.

I will grant you that many times nurses who have spent hours with a patent have more direct knowledge rather than a physician.

However, if you have a dissenting opinion with a doctor, you are both knowledgeable, licensed, tested, experienced and retested, and regardless of the dissenting opinion you might both have, it is rooted in extensive supported testing and education.

If the argument in this particular post was between a gemologist and a someone who is both a gemologist and appraiser, that would be more comparable to you example.

But in this situation, we have a person who in the medical comparison, is not tested, not licensed, not credentialed, and who gained his knowledge ( whether it be correct or not ) from ( using a broad brush here) the internet WebMd.com site or others similar to it. What basis would you or the doctor give such a person who offered diagnostic direction? ( I absolutely am not trying to criticize or attack anyone ). I just want offer a potentially more realistic addition to your comment of professional vs professional, as compared to professional vs non-professional. I am not voicing this to be sarcastic, but to maybe adjust your comparison to be more "realistic". I also want to say and I certainly realize that the issues that you make decisions on are potentially life threatening decisions, and are intensely more important than making the purchase of a diamond, which is far from life threatening ( maybe life enduring is the proper word). Further, isn''t hands on experience important and vitally required?

It is sort of interesting that this whole issue, concerns a fee of about $ 40.00. (This what I''d charge for examining this stone). The fee spent to me or any other appraisers is certainly not going to have a intense or vibrant change in mine or some other appraisers financial position. The fee for this is very minor as compared to the $ 6100-$6800 that the stone is being offered for sale at. If someone, who is considering spending that amount of money on a purchase, getting the facts ( if they are determinable ) seems to be well worth it, provided the purchaser has a serious interest.

I want to reiterate this again, that I write this in the spirit of providing prudent and reasonable advice, and not for self gain, nor to criticize anyone person''s opinion. I certainly did not intend to attack Storm, and I thought I made that patently clear in what I wrote. However, the attack that actually occured was aimed directly against my position, livelihood, integrity and opinion. There should be an academic level of courteous discussion, where dissenting opinions are reasonably debated, and the weight of evidence between the opinions be considered by the consumers. I also wrote that the final decision as to how to proceed was the consumer''s decision.

As for my comment to Storm concerning the liability he possibly could face, that comment was made with the intent to help and potentially avoid a legal issue for him. Unfortunately, Storm didn''t interpret my writing and suggestion with the intent that I actually had. It appears that many readers thought that I meant I would sue or was threatening to sue. I do not have any reason to be a plaintiff even if the stone really did have a problem with its issue relevant to durability or not.

Kimberly, or any others, I''d like to hear your position if an internet reader came into the hospital and made reccommendations, and offered advice, when the basis of his knowledge was gathered from Web MD, how much consideration would it get?

I firmly support the amicable discussion of dissenting opinion, but at an academic,respectful and courteous level rather than an accusatory one or perceived as threatening when the primary thrust isn''t one. I hope that in the future, such differences in opinion can be debated courteously, and with the derseved respect of both parties, regardless of who they are.

Cordially,

Rockdoc
 
Greetings Leo



Date: 7/30/2005 1:14:45 PM
Author: Pricescope


You have your opportunity to offer your professional opinion.

Click to expand...
Oh I know. However I would have to concur with the other tradesman that not enough info is given to provide an educated opinion. The lack of crown and pavilion data is one reason and the comments made on the plot are also accurate. A plot can be misleading which is why I personally prefer darkfield photography. I've seen plots that have looked horendous and the diamond looked great and vice/versa.



Do you appreciate, however, when consumers praise your diamonds?

Click to expand...
Of course. My point is that we can't praise or condemn a diamond when such limited data is provided. The only cohesive answer that can be given is ... "I don't know" because there are too many variables we do not know about the stone in question. Once we have the answers we are seeking, only then can we give praise or condemnation to the stone in question. That's all.
1.gif
 
Date: 7/30/2005 5:22:51 PM
Author: RockDoc

Kimberly, or any others, I''d like to hear your position if an internet reader came into the hospital and made reccommendations, and offered advice, when the basis of his knowledge was gathered from Web MD, how much consideration would it get?

I firmly support the amicable discussion of dissenting opinion, but at an academic,respectful and courteous level rather than an accusatory one or perceived as threatening when the primary thrust isn''t one. I hope that in the future, such differences in opinion can be debated courteously, and with the derseved respect of both parties, regardless of who they are.
Click to expand...
actually, this happens all the time. more often than not, i find it helpful when a patient has taken the time to learn about and understand their specific medical condition, wherever they may find the information. having done research helps them to prepare pertinent and logical questions regarding the most important aspects of their health. regardless of how the information is obtained, it is up to the patient to seek professional advice when and how they choose.

there is nothing wrong with comparing this situation to the medical field except for the fact that this is a forum based largely on consumers and their experiences. there are no claims otherwise. those that post here understand that these are open discussions and questions may be answered by professionals and non professionals alike. there will always be varying opinions and advice, but no matter what is said, it is up to the purchaser to decide what to do in the particular situation. to imply that uncredentialed opinions in an open consumer forum are worth less than credentialed ones is disserving to say the least.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top