Ideal-scope image request (greatly appreciated)

[fire&ice]

I''m still confused. How is satisfying the mind going to determine which stone his eyes prefer? At a certain point, you go in trusting the science & not what you prefer.

Never mind - run all the tests necessary to beat this dead horse.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:05:18 PM
Author: fire&ice
I'm still confused. How is satisfying the mind going to determine which stone his eyes prefer? At a certain point, you go in trusting the science & not what you prefer.

Never mind - run all the tests necessary to beat this dead horse.

The answer is.....it doesn't.

Satisfying the mind has nothing to do with his eyes.

No, you're not trusting the science *over* what you prefer. The paper isn't going make your eyes like a stone, but is going to satisfy those who need the MENTAL piece of understanding the monetary value of the stone.

I guess you don't have mind-clean issues; maybe that's why this just doesn't resonate to you.

It's like trying to make a decision based on the head or on the heart. Sometimes, you can find choices that satisfy both.

I cannot think of another way to explain it.

 

[fire&ice]

Regarding the LK stones, I always use the caveat that I don''t know about current LK stones - but I''ve seen many of them. The first time I saw them, they took my breath away. That was in 1982 or 3. It''s when we realized that cut was very important. We didn''t end up buying one as the premium was more than we wanted to pay for the carat weight. We ended up telling a dealer cut was very important to us. He had a packet of what we were looking at. He selected a few stones & we picked the one we liked. Years later I had it appraised & the crown and pav angles revealed to confirm the excellent cut.

 

[Mara]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:05:18 PM
Author: fire&ice
I''m still confused. How is satisfying the mind going to determine which stone his eyes prefer? At a certain point, you go in trusting the science & not what you prefer.

Never mind - run all the tests necessary to beat this dead horse.

What if what you prefer is trusting the science. Does one preclude the other??

From my perspective, satisfying my mind may actually make the stone look different to my eyes. Our mind and eyes are connected, or rather I believe we can influence what our eyes SEE with knowledge or with making our minds happy. Mind clean and all that. Kind of like mind-clean clarity. Just like buying a VVS stone. If your mind knows that with a VVS you won''t see anything, your eye may be less likely to seek it out.

If I know that the stone is a super ideal, I''m going to expect my EYE to love it. If my mind is satisfied with the numbers and the images online and all that, then I''m going to expect my eye to corroborate. It won''t 10000% of the time, there are some stones that may not live up to the expectations, but 99.9% of the time it probably will.

This is all virtually speaking of course. Though, even if I was choosing stones through a vendor locally, I''d still use my mind to pick some to see in person and again, expect my eye to see what my mind already knows. To me the mind and eye are connected. One does not trump the other.

Confused yet?!

 

[Regular Guy]

Well...so...apply your caveat for now...just for fun. If it was 82, 83 right now, would you feel comfortable recommending such a stone to someone else? Is there a basis for that? Does your ability to make this recommendation apply more broadly to anything you''ve raised in this thread?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:13:38 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Well...so...apply your caveat for now...just for fun. If it was 82, 83 right now, would you feel comfortable recommending such a stone to someone else? Is there a basis for that? Does your ability to make this recommendation apply more broadly to anything you''ve raised in this thread?

???? Don''t get it. What are you talking about?

 

[belle]

i don''t get what ''tests'' f&i is talking about. what tests? i dont'' see anything here that said ''run more tests''.
please clarify f&i, if you don''t mind.

 

[aljdewey]

I guess I could point to Demelza as an example of needing mind clean.

She bought a drop-dead beautiful stone.....one that her eyes loved. BUT, the stone had an angle on paper that she felt bothered her. It took her a year to find the inclusion in her stone....but once she did, it bothered her. The mind-clean thing....the mental thing.

She ended up swapping the stone for another stone. The new stone satisfied her eyes AND her mind. She had a mental definition of ideal that needed to be met, as well as a visual definition of what was pretty. She had to satisfy both.

Several others here thought the stone was a knockout and couldn''t see why she wanted to change it. But, she wasn''t buying to make them happy, she was buying to make herself happy.

 

[aljdewey]

Diamondseeker is another great example.

It''s entirely possible that she could see a VVS stone and an SI2 stone and not be able to see any inclusions in either with her eye. But, her MIND knows that the SI2 stone is an SI2, and it doesn''t satisfy HER mind.

If it pleases her eye but not her mind, that''s not enough. She should be able to buy what satisfies both! (and she did

).

I could say all day long "well, but the inclusions don''t matter if your eyes can''t see them", but for HER, that''s not true. They DO matter.....not to her eyes, but to her MIND.

 

[fire&ice]

Some of the disconnect here is that I do buy by my eye for a living. Maybe my mind does know my genre - but it never second guesses my eye. Perhaps they meld and I''m not conscious of such.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:13:38 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Well...so...apply your caveat for now...just for fun. If it was 82, 83 right now, would you feel comfortable recommending such a stone to someone else? Is there a basis for that? Does your ability to make this recommendation apply more broadly to anything you''ve raised in this thread?

I''m not sure where you are going with this. Is it because they are considered "ideal"? I''m reacting more to the beauty I saw - but they do come with a bunch of numbers. I think LK stones now come with an AGS report. Ahhh...is it because their beauty is why I gravitated toward them?

 

[aussiegirl23]

A few points I figured should be made:

Here on PriceScope, DATA, the numbers, the tests, and the math & science of diamonds are the only thing we can really discuss or give advice on. As we are located throughout the WORLD and can''t sit in the same room and view diamond choices, we really can''t give advice on the emotional effect of a diamond. Even if we WERE all in the same room looking at a stone, we''d all have different reactions for different reasons... and be unable to explain them fully or accurately.

So I think this aspect of choosing a stone is often not talked about because PSer from California can''t really help give an opinion on stone X that''s in New York. So, PS''er from California helps the new-comer decifer what all the numbers mean with his stone in NY. That is totally reasonable to do online... One idealscope image or Sarin report looks the same and can be discussed by people all over the world.

Also, it is an incredibly refreshing attitude here on PriceScope that numbers, reports, and other scientific tests are important. While looking with my boyfriend for stones at local B&M stores, I don''t know how many times a sales person said... "isn''t it beautiful??" despite the fact that it was a very good cut and I''d said specifically that I didn''t want to see anything but excellent or ideal cut. They try to pacify your desire to look at the certificates (often don''t even have them at that branch of the store) by saying.... what does your heart think, or isn''t this gorgeous? I''d ask about color or clarity, and again, they''d spout "just look at the stone, isn''t it lovely"... Frustrating to the extreme when you also want some solid info to go along with your visceral reaction to a diamond.

So please, let people come here and explore the more scientific aspects of diamonds. If you don''t want to participate in the discussions regarding tenths of degrees or percentages, then don''t. Others surely will help. Don''t push someone to just "get on with it already" and pick one. These are serious and expensive purchases, and ignoring a lot of important and telling data, simply because you don''t value those things, simply isn''t everybody''s cup of tea.

And yes, perhaps several stones will get bought up underneath someone before a decision is made. Or the proposal won''t happen within a 2 week timeframe. But really, isn''t finding a stone that you love both because of how you see it both visually and mentally matter more??

Don''t assume everyone has your opinion, and don''t insult the priorities and beliefs of others.

Aussiegirl : p

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:33:06 PM
Author: aussiegirl23

So please, let people come here and explore the more scientific aspects of diamonds. If you don''t want to participate in the discussions regarding tenths of degrees or percentages, then don''t. Others surely will help. Don''t push someone to just ''get on with it already'' and pick one. These are serious and expensive purchases, and ignoring a lot of important and telling data, simply because you don''t value those things, simply isn''t everybody''s cup of tea.


Don''t assume everyone has your opinion, and don''t insult the priorities and beliefs of others.

Aussiegirl : p

Now, I''ve heard everything. Have I limited anyone from talking about numbers? I''ve stated my opinion. You think the information is important and telling? Am I suppose to agree with you?

Tell me EXACTLY how I insulted the priorties an beliefs of others?

Tell me EXACTLY *how* I assumed everyone held my opinion? By the contrary in fact.

I''m never going to convince Al the numbers aren''t important. I just simply pointed out that they can''t tell this particular poster what his eye is going to prefer. He has the opportunity to view BOTH stones. Pick one. How is saying that insulting? Both stones are great stones. He will surely prefer one over the other - unless he chooses to pick both - he has no choice but to pick one. The one he prefers. He will have to do it at some point & right now he may have to drop ten and punt all over if the stones are sold.

I''m hoping you misunderstood my point because your lecture is out of line.

 

[aussiegirl23]

All I''m trying to do is give you another new-comer''s opinion. Not lecturing. Just trying to make the point that when people come here asking for opinions on numbers, they actually do want those opinions from those who understand the numbers better than they do. They''re not looking for someone to say - it really doesn''t matter - go with your eye. Perhaps we new-comers to the diamond world actually mean what we say, and would appreciate mathmatical and scientific opinions.

I only think that your kind of flippant advice to just pick whichever he prefers, as if the time-constraints involved in waiting and analyzing are going to ruin his chances of ever finding "the" diamond, is kind of negative, and a bit silly, since he asked about some of the data on the stones.

I don''t want to start an arguement, jsut trying to express my opinion and show that sometimes, people want to get involved at a deeper level when choosing their diamond, instead of making perhaps a more superficial, un-scientific decision.

Aussiegirl : p

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:23:03 PM
Author: fire&ice
Some of the disconnect here is that I do buy by my eye for a living. Maybe my mind does know my genre - but it never second guesses my eye. Perhaps they meld and I''m not conscious of such.

I honestly think this is it, F&I.

You have SUCH confidence in buying by your eye that you just don''t have "mind-clean" issues. Honestly, you''re really lucky on this!

An expert in his field only needs his eyes because the rest of the knowledge is built-in. For those who aren''t experts, some of us need more to make up for the lack of that "built in" thing.

You''re like the mechanic. He''s so familiar with cars that he could likely just go test drive it and be confident in his assessment that it''s a good buy based on what he already KNOWS. I''m not him.....since I don''t come with that confidence, I need other information to SUPPLEMENT my "yeah, it feels like it drives nice" to feel good about putting my cash on the barrel-head to purchase the car.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:33:06 PM
Author: aussiegirl23

While looking with my boyfriend for stones at local B&M stores, I don''t know how many times a sales person said... ''isn''t it beautiful??'' despite the fact that it was a very good cut and I''d said specifically that I didn''t want to see anything but excellent or ideal cut. They try to pacify your desire to look at the certificates (often don''t even have them at that branch of the store) by saying.... what does your heart think, or isn''t this gorgeous? I''d ask about color or clarity, and again, they''d spout ''just look at the stone, isn''t it lovely''... Frustrating to the extreme when you also want some solid info to go along with your visceral reaction to a diamond.

This really gets to what I''ve been trying to convey.....that some folks want the information *in addition* to. Not in place of eyeballing, not as a substitute for eyeballing, but to complement eyeballing. To satisfy the mind.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:08:27 PM
Author: aljdewey

Satisfying the mind has nothing to do with his eyes.

this is so true... the only stone I''ve seen that lingers with me after seeing it is this stone I saw in SD that was en EGL graded SI1 K that was just sooooooooo beautiful. It was like listening to a harp and I had to just hand it back and say, nope can''t fall in love with you! LOL Not because the stats were off but because it was listed at 30k which is twice what I''m trying to stay under lol

 

[aussiegirl23]

Thanks Aldjdewy:

I love that I can come here and ask questions like... is this Pav.Angle okay? I know it''s not spot on, but how does it jive with these other numbers... Or how deep is "too deep"? Analyzing numbers is my job (just not in this area)... so I literally can''t let myself simply ignore them. And you ask a B&M salesperson about crown angles, or tables... and they give you a look like you''re a freakin'' alien!

Also, how do you quantify your visceral reaction to a stone in trying to decide a reasonable price to pay for it? If you''re equally awed by 2 stones and they''re asking two different prices, wouldn''t you want to know why there''s this discrepancy? Anyway, enough from me already.

Aussiegirl : p

 

[fire&ice]

Pick one being flippant? Well, I guess I''ll never come home with a melon, car or husband for that matter.

Al, maybe it is the disconnect after all. But, I do think that one can have - and I love this one - "paralyisis analyisis" (footnote - bluehammer).

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:33:06 PM
Author: aussiegirl23
A few points I figured should be made:

Here on PriceScope, DATA, the numbers, the tests, and the math & science of diamonds are the only thing we can really discuss or give advice on. As we are located throughout the WORLD and can''t sit in the same room and view diamond choices, we really can''t give advice on the emotional effect of a diamond. Even if we WERE all in the same room looking at a stone, we''d all have different reactions for different reasons... and be unable to explain them fully or accurately.

So I think this aspect of choosing a stone is often not talked about because PSer from California can''t really help give an opinion on stone X that''s in New York. So, PS''er from California helps the new-comer decifer what all the numbers mean with his stone in NY. That is totally reasonable to do online... One idealscope image or Sarin report looks the same and can be discussed by people all over the world.

Also, it is an incredibly refreshing attitude here on PriceScope that numbers, reports, and other scientific tests are important. While looking with my boyfriend for stones at local B&M stores, I don''t know how many times a sales person said... ''isn''t it beautiful??'' despite the fact that it was a very good cut and I''d said specifically that I didn''t want to see anything but excellent or ideal cut. They try to pacify your desire to look at the certificates (often don''t even have them at that branch of the store) by saying.... what does your heart think, or isn''t this gorgeous? I''d ask about color or clarity, and again, they''d spout ''just look at the stone, isn''t it lovely''... Frustrating to the extreme when you also want some solid info to go along with your visceral reaction to a diamond.

So please, let people come here and explore the more scientific aspects of diamonds. If you don''t want to participate in the discussions regarding tenths of degrees or percentages, then don''t. Others surely will help. Don''t push someone to just ''get on with it already'' and pick one. These are serious and expensive purchases, and ignoring a lot of important and telling data, simply because you don''t value those things, simply isn''t everybody''s cup of tea.

And yes, perhaps several stones will get bought up underneath someone before a decision is made. Or the proposal won''t happen within a 2 week timeframe. But really, isn''t finding a stone that you love both because of how you see it both visually and mentally matter more??

Don''t assume everyone has your opinion, and don''t insult the priorities and beliefs of others.

Aussiegirl : p

I like what you said here... all of us can go out into the world and JUST look at stones and not even consider numbers if all we want is to use our eyes... this forum is the perfect place to scratch the brain itch and here our eyes are actually pretty limited to what they can see. It''s nice to have this place to really get geeky about numbers and angles etc and then to take that info back and forth to come to a decision that ultimately may lie on our eyes.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/21/2006 6:11:24 PM
Author: fire&ice

Al, maybe it is the disconnect after all. But, I do think that one can have - and I love this one - ''paralyisis analyisis'' (footnote - bluehammer).

I agree. And that''s why I don''t advocate EITHER extreme.......(pick only by the eye or pick only by the numbers).

I personally believe the best ground is the middle ground.....understanding all the figures as they relate to the monetary value of a stone, and being smart enough to let your eye tell you what''s beautiful within those economic parameters.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 8/21/2006 5:28:10 PM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 8/21/2006 5:13:38 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Well...so...apply your caveat for now...just for fun. If it was 82, 83 right now, would you feel comfortable recommending such a stone to someone else? Is there a basis for that? Does your ability to make this recommendation apply more broadly to anything you''ve raised in this thread?

I''m not sure where you are going with this. Is it because they are considered ''ideal''? I''m reacting more to the beauty I saw - but they do come with a bunch of numbers. I think LK stones now come with an AGS report. Ahhh...is it because their beauty is why I gravitated toward them?

Yes, I think so.

There also may be some bakeries that you can recommend friends to, because they make predictably good bread. On the one hand, you could just savor the bread, and don''t have to think more about it. Or, you can figure that a cook made it, the cook knows how to make good bread, and it''s not just a...well...lets just start from scratch sort of experiment each time, but instead, they actually have a formula, a recipe, they know how to execute it, and so you can predict you''ll like it next time you have that bread, too.

This is probably not different from Sergey''s point in the parallel thread: "Cutter can copy any sample beauty cut. Consumer( Labs) can check accuracy copy."

You can recommend (or could have recommended to people at least in 82 - 83..(probably the formula isn''t dead yet) friends to LK, because you know they know how to make a beautiful diamond. They know the formula. There could be a recipe. The recipe could also be shared, and associated with your bread, diamond, what have you. That''s how the data on PS evolves, gets presented, successful recipes get shared.

Also, you can feel comfortable to know that your attraction to LK diamonds is not arbitrary, you''re a person, have similar makeup to others, and without second guessing yourself, can understand they will like it, too.

 

[MarkP1]

Thank-you everyone for your help, comments, and advice.
I have asked the retailer to bring in the diamonds so that I can see them.
Fingers crossed!!!

Thanks again.

 

[belle]

Date: 8/21/2006 7:56:54 PM
Author: MarkP1
Thank-you everyone for your help, comments, and advice.
I have asked the retailer to bring in the diamonds so that I can see them.
Fingers crossed!!!

Thanks again.

yay!
please let us know what you decide.

 

[fire&ice]

Ira, your 60.5 depth never ceases to amaze me.

One of the things I like about LK stones - is they have lots of different recipes. They don''t go to extremes - but do put a pinch here - a pinch there.