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justinislooking

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OK, let me start off by saying the stats aren''t perfect but the stone is beautiful in person. It reflects light amazingly. It is only EGL-USA certified, but I still love it. It is really a marvelous stone in person.

Stone 88018505D
Weight 0.70 CT
Shape ROUND BRILLIANT
Color H
Clarity VS1
Measurements 5.95 x 5.85 x 3.35 mm
Depth 56.8%
Table 64%
Crown 12.1%
Pavilion 42.7%
Crown Angle 33.4°
Pavilion Angle 40.6°
Girdle VERY THIN TO MEDIUM FACETED
Polish GOOD
Symmetry GOOD
Fluorescence N/A
Culet N/A
Cut Grade N/A
Comments
UGS Appraisal Value N/A

http://66.134.214.118/oresults/SearchPage.php?st_num=88018505D - copied from here

I made a depost on the stone. I am paying about $1,900 for it. Maybe I am just getting diamond happy over here, but the stone has a lot of brilliance when compared alongside similarly priced/sized stones. I know people normally say depth should be greater than table, but I think this stone works. I''m obviously no expert and I think I like diamonds more than my girlfriend right now.

How much are ASET scopes? I''m thinking about picking one up to look at the stone with.
 

Stephan

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Yes, the table is VERY big, too big for me but it can please others.
Fortunately, the diamond is not to deep and not extreme shallow.
It won''t be a fish eye, but when you tilt it, you will probably see a white half circle in the pavilion.
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/18/2009 3:26:33 PM
Author:justinislooking
OK, let me start off by saying the stats aren't perfect but the stone is beautiful in person. It reflects light amazingly. It is only EGL-USA certified, but I still love it. It is really a marvelous stone in person.

Stone 88018505D
Weight 0.70 CT
Shape ROUND BRILLIANT
Color H
Clarity VS1
Measurements 5.95 x 5.85 x 3.35 mm
Depth 56.8%
Table 64%
Crown 12.1%
Pavilion 42.7%
Crown Angle 33.4°
Pavilion Angle 40.6°
Girdle VERY THIN TO MEDIUM FACETED
Polish GOOD
Symmetry GOOD
Fluorescence N/A
Culet N/A
Cut Grade N/A
Comments
UGS Appraisal Value N/A

http://66.134.214.118/oresults/SearchPage.php?st_num=88018505D - copied from here

I made a depost on the stone. I am paying about $1,900 for it. Maybe I am just getting diamond happy over here, but the stone has a lot of brilliance when compared alongside similarly priced/sized stones. I know people normally say depth should be greater than table, but I think this stone works. I'm obviously no expert and I think I like diamonds more than my girlfriend right now.

How much are ASET scopes? I'm thinking about picking one up to look at the stone with.
Hi justin,

I would expect this diamond to be brilliant from the proportions - but be very careful as it is possible this diamond will show a fish eye, see the link below.

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/fisheye.asp

I would strongly suggest you look at some AGS0 from Jareds if there is one closeby and also view this diamond in as many different lights as possible to make sure you like how it looks. An ASET is also an excellent idea, they cost $50. The table is far too large for my taste and it is very shallow - so I strongly urge you to look at some other diamonds of known cut quality before you pull the trigger on this one. The very thin part of the girdle needs checking by an expert to make sure it isn't a potential durability issue, it isn't always the case but best to check.

What I would do is make the sale final on the diamond checking out with an independant appraisal ( and get this in writing). If you find an appraiser who is skilled in evaluating cut, they might have ASET or Idealscope and be able to advise you.

Shallow proportioned diamonds such as this can be prone to what is called obstruction issues. This means such diamonds can look dark if you are looking at them close up due to your head/ body shadow, so check very carefully to see if the diamond darkens face up when you are looking at it up close. Check out the video bottom right of this page titled Head Obstruction by Garry Holloway, this will give you an idea of what to look for. I think you can do better and find a much improved cut diamond rather than this one, but if you are really liking this rock, compare with others to make sure it is really what you want and are looking for. And watch out for a fish eye.

http://diamondscope.pricescope.com/
 

iraweissman

Rough_Rock
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The stone sounds a bit expensive. Wholesale price for a stone like that should be about -60% rap which would be about 1650 per carat, or 1155 total for the stone. Online vendors typically make around 15-20% markup. So you might be better off returning this stone and buying one with a better make online.

Good luck!
 

justinislooking

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Messages
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Ok, so I have an update.

I went to Jared to look at their AGS stones, but the only stones that were comparable size-wise were significantly more expensive. I did go look at their GIA cert stones though and found this:

Measurements: 5.61 5.64 * 3.55
Shape: RB
Ct Weight: Listed as .68 but cert said .71
Cut: VG
Color: I
Clarity: VS2
Depth: 63.1%
Table: 57%
Crown angle: 35 degrees
Crown Ht: 15%
Pavillion angle: 41 degrees
Pavillion depth: 43%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Polish: G
Symmetry: G
Girdle: Listed as Med-Slightly Thick but Cert said Thick 5.2%
Culet: none
Fluorescence: Medium Blue

Price: $2,100

I had this stone shipped so that I can look at it on Tuesday. How are the numbers? I am a little bit worried about the clarity, color, and girdle thickness. Is the ''I'' color going to be much more noticeable than the ''H''? I looked at some VS clarity stones from Jared''s IGI stones and found a lot of inclusions that I didn''t notice in the EGL-USA stone. I''m hoping that this GIA cert stone will be very clear. Also, is there a problem with a thick girdle?

I was kind of hoping that I got lucky with this stone, because the cert listed it as being slightly larger than Jared listed it. It also has medium blue fluorescence which typically makes stones more expensive, right? Do you all think I am getting a much better deal with this stone? What I will probably do if I like it is buy it and compare it with the EGL stone. If I like it, I will keep the GIA stone and if I don''t, I will return it. Jared has a 30-day return policy.

I haven''t bought the EGL stone. I just made a refundable deposit so that no one else would buy it.

One more thing about Jared. I am a little worried because it is a large chain store. A lot of the stones I looked at seemed to be scratched from possible poor handling of the stones. The lady helping me dropped the stone in the microscope and was trying to fish it out with the tweasers. When I looked at it under the microscope, there seemed to be scratches on the table from it. I might be wrong about this. I also seemed to know more about diamonds from simply being on PriceScope than their resident "diamond expert". She seemed to have no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned the possible fish eye with certain tables and depths. She also noted that her engagement diamond was an ''I'' color and that the color wasn''t noticeable. I told her that she also had a gold setting and that makes it less noticeable. Then she told me that the gold setting actually makes the tint more noticeable. I thought it was the other way around. I am going to have a white gold setting, so color matters some to me.

I went to Jared, because Lorelei suggested it. I was trying to avoid large stores, because everybody says they are bad. I guess Jared is supposed to be an exception. I will be very happy with this GIA stone if it turns out to be something special. They have a good lifetime diamond replacement policy and I like the fact that they are local. I''m trying to avoid the online orders.
 

justinislooking

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
161
Also, the HCA report on the EGL stone is better than the GIA stone.

EGL stone:
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Very Good
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: Excellent

A small amount of tilt will show a fish-eye under the table of this diamond.
Total Visual Performance: 2.3 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

GIA stone:
Light Return: Very Good
Fire: Very Good
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread: Good

Total Visual Performance 2.5 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right
 

iraweissman

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Jared is owned by Sterling, inc. the same company that owns Kay and several other smaller regional chains. The way to identify them is if they sell the "Leo Diamond" then they are owned by Sterling. I would recommend against buying from Jared only because I know from experience that their margins are significantly higher than online vendors such as Blue Nile. They need to be since they own a massive amount of inventory that they finance with loans. Compare that with BN who only owns their mounted jewelry -- all of the loose on their site is owned by individual diamond suppliers and shipped directly from them when ordered. BN can survive (and thrive) on 15-20% markups, whereas Jared probably needs between 50-100%.
 

Lorelei

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Justin, I suggested Jareds so you could look at some AGS0 cut grade to compare the EGL graded diamond with, so you could see how the EGL diamond compared with diamonds of known cut quality rather than to go in and buy at the moment. I wanted you to be able to see how well cut diamonds compared with this EGL diamond so you could see the difference as an exercise. With the diamond you posted from there I would pass on that one - sorry - as the depth is too deep and the angles are not within good range. If you prefer not to buy online then Jareds or any other store are fine if that is what you prefer, just be aware that you will pay a premium for this pricewise as brick and mortar stores are typically more expensive. If you do prefer to stick to brick and mortar stores, continue as you are doing and post the info on each diamond for us to help you with, that way we can help you find the best cut diamond out of the ones you are considering.

Here is a cheat sheet you can use as a guide to help you find a well cut diamond.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above



note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!




From expert John Pollard.
As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.




With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.




GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

With the HCA scores for both diamonds, the aim is to usually score below 2 then evaluate from there. The HCA is used for rejection not selection. The EGL and GIA diamonds aren't the best scorers because the first is shallow and could show a fish eye, the second is borderline steep deep with the angles ( the opposite to the first diamond) and could leak light as a result.
 

justinislooking

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Joined
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Messages
161
I will be forever grateful for all of your input once I get this diamond purchased. I am at a point right now of pure anxiety. I keep getting excited about a diamond and then I come home and look at online vendors to see that it isn''t that great of a deal. I hardly slept last night thinking about diamonds, lol.

I think I am going to buy online. "IceStore" had some nice stat diamonds in the .7ct range and my price range. Also, Whiteflash has a .7ct I color ACA diamond that I may go to, but it is like $2360. After PS discount that may be bearable(its a thin line). I''m still worried about the ''I'' color, but the ACA diamonds are great right? They are supposed to be some of the nicest out there from my understanding. If I buy online, I''m going to probably buy one that is more of a guaranteed nice stone than one that is hit or miss with slightly off stats. Can I be reasonably assured of a diamonds quality from online vendors like IceStore and WhiteFlash?
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/19/2009 10:00:05 AM
Author: justinislooking
I will be forever grateful for all of your input once I get this diamond purchased. I am at a point right now of pure anxiety. I keep getting excited about a diamond and then I come home and look at online vendors to see that it isn't that great of a deal. I hardly slept last night thinking about diamonds, lol.

I think I am going to buy online. 'IceStore' had some nice stat diamonds in the .7ct range and my price range. Also, Whiteflash has a .7ct I color ACA diamond that I may go to, but it is like $2360. After PS discount that may be bearable(its a thin line). I'm still worried about the 'I' color, but the ACA diamonds are great right? They are supposed to be some of the nicest out there from my understanding. If I buy online, I'm going to probably buy one that is more of a guaranteed nice stone than one that is hit or miss with slightly off stats. Can I be reasonably assured of a diamonds quality from online vendors like IceStore and WhiteFlash?
Justin, I completely understand the anxiety but what that tells me is that you are a smart shopper! So in the long run this will be of benefit!

Try not to worry, the veteran PSers here have helped hundreds of people through this - if not thousands - and are well used to doing so! Just post the proportions of any diamonds you like here and ask any questions, and we will help you through it!

The ACA diamonds are well worth looking at - an I colour in a top cut diamond will still look extremely white. And yes you can be well assured of the quality of diamond you are getting from the trusted PS vendors, you can buy with confidence!

If you like the idea of h&a you can also consider Infinity from -

www.highperformancediamonds.com

www.goodoldgold.com also have h&a
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 4/19/2009 10:06:11 AM
Author: justinislooking
What do you think of these two stones from Ice Store?

Diamond 1

Diamond 2
We need more detailed measurements of the first diamond Justin and especially the crown and pavilion angles, the second link doesn''t work.
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/19/2009 2:13:36 PM
Author: justinislooking
Here is the second diamond again:

Diamond 2

I guess I would have to e-mail Ice Store to get the certs for all the angles.
Thanks Justin, that would be helpful if you could get the angles please and the rest of the info from the report.
 

justinislooking

Shiny_Rock
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Mar 7, 2009
Messages
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Here are some Blue Nile diamonds I am looking at. I tried to keep the clarity at VS1 or better. I looked at stones in the ''I'' color range, but tried to get them with a medium fluorescence, because it sounds like that can improve color. There is also a G and H thrown in for price comparison. I ran all of these through the HCA report and they are all between 0 and 2. I''m also pretty sure these are all Excellent/Ideal symmetry/polish. All are Ideal cut. The Signature-Ideals were a little out of the price range.

Its hard to get some of the angles perfect though, because some of the certificates were a little blurry. I''m a little biased towards the second stone, because it is a good size, price, and the fluorescence should make the color slightly better.

The first two are GIA and last three are AGSL.

Certificate Links:

Blue Nile 1
.70 ct, I, VS1, Strong Fluorescence, GIA

Blue Nile 2
.72 ct, I, VS1, Medium Fluorescence, GIA

Blue Nile 3
.70 ct, I, VVS2, No Fluorescence, AGSL

Blue Nile 4
.67 ct, G, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL

Blue Nile 5
.72 ct, H, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL
 

iraweissman

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Hi Justin. If your reason for choosing a VS1 diamond on BN is to compare it to the EGL stone you had chosen earlier, it might make more sense to pick a VS2 for a more balanced comparison since the BN stones are certed by GIA and AGS.

In my experience, the average upgrade from GIA to EGL-USA is around 2.5 grades (divided between color and clarity). In my experience it also depends which EGL-USA it was sent to. LA (at least as of a few years ago) had a reputation for being a little looser than NY.


Date: 4/19/2009 3:24:23 PM
Author: justinislooking
Here are some Blue Nile diamonds I am looking at. I tried to keep the clarity at VS1 or better. I looked at stones in the ''I'' color range, but tried to get them with a medium fluorescence, because it sounds like that can improve color. There is also a G and H thrown in for price comparison. I ran all of these through the HCA report and they are all between 0 and 2. I''m also pretty sure these are all Excellent/Ideal symmetry/polish. All are Ideal cut. The Signature-Ideals were a little out of the price range.


Its hard to get some of the angles perfect though, because some of the certificates were a little blurry. I''m a little biased towards the second stone, because it is a good size, price, and the fluorescence should make the color slightly better.


The first two are GIA and last three are AGSL.


Certificate Links:


Blue Nile 1

.70 ct, I, VS1, Strong Fluorescence, GIA


Blue Nile 2

.72 ct, I, VS1, Medium Fluorescence, GIA


Blue Nile 3

.70 ct, I, VVS2, No Fluorescence, AGSL


Blue Nile 4

.67 ct, G, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL


Blue Nile 5

.72 ct, H, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL
 

Lorelei

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They all look great, well done Justin - you learn fast!!!

As to which to pick, they all look promising, with the second diamond I can''t quite read the pavilion angle, can you see what it is on your screen please?
 

justinislooking

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I think the crown angle is 34.6 degrees and the pavillion angle is 40.5 degrees. Its blurry for me too, but thats what I used in the HCA report. I varied the numbers a little bit just to make sure and the HCA was still below 2.

Is there anything that makes one of these stones stand out in particular? Is there a chance that they might actually be poorer quality in person even with the nice numbers? Right now, I am leaning towards the second stone, because of the size, price, and fluorescence. I think fluorescence is really interesting and its supposed to make the color look better. That coupled with the polish and cut should make for a really pretty stone.

Ira: You are saying that the GIA is typically 2.5 grades better than the EGL-USA right? The wording confused me a bit.
 

iraweissman

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Date: 4/19/2009 4:12:44 PM
Author: justinislooking


Ira: You are saying that the GIA is typically 2.5 grades better than the EGL-USA right? The wording confused me a bit.
I think I''m saying just the opposite! Lets talk specifics. You had an EGL-USA H VS1. In GIA terms, that''s probably around a I/J VS2, maybe SI1. Everyone in the industry knows this, so EGL diamonds are priced cheaper (I mentioned that earlier in the thread). So if you wanted to compare apples to apples in your search on BN, it would make sense to search for an I or J and a VS2.

Good luck!
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/19/2009 4:12:44 PM
Author: justinislooking
I think the crown angle is 34.6 degrees and the pavillion angle is 40.5 degrees. Its blurry for me too, but thats what I used in the HCA report. I varied the numbers a little bit just to make sure and the HCA was still below 2.

Is there anything that makes one of these stones stand out in particular? Is there a chance that they might actually be poorer quality in person even with the nice numbers? Right now, I am leaning towards the second stone, because of the size, price, and fluorescence. I think fluorescence is really interesting and its supposed to make the color look better. That coupled with the polish and cut should make for a really pretty stone.

Ira: You are saying that the GIA is typically 2.5 grades better than the EGL-USA right? The wording confused me a bit.
I found the report Justin and the numbers are good, the pavilion angle is 40.8 so in a good range.

http://www2.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=17610591&weight=0.72

A couple of the diamonds have the coveted AGS0 Ideal cut grades, so this is another factor to consider. See more in this thread.

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/grading.asp

They all have potential, if I were choosing I would probably pick #5 as the colour is a little higher and the AGS0 cut grade.
 

justinislooking

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So the AGS0 is more coveted because the AGS system is a little more advanced/trusted for RB diamonds?

How much does fluoro change a diamond? Would we get any true benefit out of it besides knowing that it has a medium fluoro?

Do the best diamonds actually go to AGS to be graded or is AGS just more likely to be accurate? I would imagine that the GIA stones are likely to be close to the AGS0 diamonds right? ''Excellent'' for GIA is supposed to be the equivalent of ''Ideal'' for AGS right? Are the differences perceived or actual?

Price is the final factor for me. The ''H'' color AGS0 (5th stone) is about $380 (20%) more than the ''I'' color medium blue fluoro from GIA. If the AGS0 is actually a much better stone, I might have to go with it. If thats not the case and a medium blue fluoro can counter some of the ''I'' color, I will go with the GIA.
 

phoenixgirl

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When you plug the angles into the Holloway Cut Adviser, you''ll see that the AGS0 zone is much smaller and only covers the red (lowest HCA scores) sections. The GIA excellent zone covers some blue (unacceptable HCA scores) zones. For some reason, the GIA allows unfavorable angle combinations within its excellent category.

So you have more peace of mind with AGS. They don''t round as much as GIA. If you had to blindly pick an AGS0 or a GIA excellent, you''d pick AGS. But a GIA excellent could get an AGS0--there is a lot of overlap--so it all depends on the stone.

So the differences can be actual.
 

Stephan

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Date: 4/19/2009 3:24:23 PM
Author: justinislooking
Blue Nile 1
.70 ct, I, VS1, Strong Fluorescence, GIA

Blue Nile 2
.72 ct, I, VS1, Medium Fluorescence, GIA

Blue Nile 3
.70 ct, I, VVS2, No Fluorescence, AGSL

Blue Nile 4
.67 ct, G, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL

Blue Nile 5
.72 ct, H, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL
Give me number five:
Blue Nile 5
.72 ct, H, VS1, No Fluorescence, AGSL

It''s my pick.
I guess it''s full of fire.
If I''m not wrong, the upper girdle angle is 42.33 with a 41.93 lower girdle.
Crown and Pavilion are in good relationship too.
The other diamonds you''ve posted could be nice too, but this one is my blind buy.
 

justinislooking

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Ok, here is where I stand:

I am trying to decide between Blue Nile 1, 2 and 5. I am not completely sold on #5. It is about $500 more than #1 and $400 more than #2. I am considering #1 and #2, because they both have fluoro. #1 has strong fluoro and #2 has medium. I''m hoping that with the fluoro I can still get a very clear stone but add a lavender or light blue tint in certain lights. I think that is really neat and I believe my girlfriend would like it. I''m worried about not seeing it in person though, because I don''t want it to appear milky. Statistically, I shouldn''t have much to worry about here because very few cause milkiness.

I''ve actually begun to like #1 more than #2, because it sounds like the strong fluoro would be more likely to ''improve'' the I color.

All three of these diamonds fall within the AGS0 standards on the HCA report. I''ve notice one thing with the HCA report though: its graphs are based off of a 1.2% girdle which is smaller than each one of these diamonds have. What does this mean? Would a thicker girdle make diamond #1 and #2 more or less likely to receive an AGS0 grade.

I guess the biggest gamble would be in the chance that these GIA diamonds are not AGS0 quality and would be ranked lower if an AGS grader got his/her hands on it. The other gamble is in the fact that the ''I'' color will be noticeable and the fluoro will not improve anything.

The more I read about fluoro on the forums, the more it seems like it isn''t something to be too worried about.
 

justinislooking

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Another question: I am really considering the first stone. Can I still get an AGS appraisal if I buy it? I think I read on the AGS website that the only stones that go into their labs are from vendors. I was thinking about buying it and getting it appraised to see where it fell. If it wasn''t AGS0, I could possibly return it.
 

justinislooking

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Also adding this diamond from WhiteFlash to the mix:

WF 1

I would rather buy from WF instead of the Wal-Mart of diamonds - Blue Nile. This is the first one I have found on WF that was up to my standards and in my price range... at least thats how I feel without seeing the certificate. I have e-mailed them asking for the certificate and maybe even some ASET/IdealScope images if possible. :)

This diamond also has the medium fluorescence that I think I like.
 

Lorelei

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Date: 4/19/2009 10:28:16 PM
Author: justinislooking
Also adding this diamond from WhiteFlash to the mix:

WF 1

I would rather buy from WF instead of the Wal-Mart of diamonds - Blue Nile. This is the first one I have found on WF that was up to my standards and in my price range... at least thats how I feel without seeing the certificate. I have e-mailed them asking for the certificate and maybe even some ASET/IdealScope images if possible. :)

This diamond also has the medium fluorescence that I think I like.
This one probably would have to be called in Justin, it is likely it isn''t an inventory diamond. Let us know what they say, also they might be able to suggest some diamonds you might like.
 

Imdanny

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I just want to add my good wishes and say good luck, Justin!


The internet has given us so much information and so many choices, and it''s all clear-cut, precise, and waiting for anybody who wants to learn it and have these choices.

It''s a far cry from what I remember growing up in the early ''70''s when it seemed like everyone had a diamond from a mall store and even a layperson like me could see that they did not sparkle and could seen inclusions in them. I mean low quality diamonds were nothing unusual.

Everyone is so helpful here! I like reading these threads even when I don''t have useful advice to add. It''s nice to see people gaining knowledge and getting good value, even one person at a time!
 

Stone-cold11

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I would say somewhat yes, it is risky. This is an old AGS report, before they started using performance based grading, so the AGS0 is based on proportion and not the same as the AGS0 of post 2006. Also, BN''s eye-clean standard is iffy as some reported.
 
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