I am So Mad about Windows!

[minousbijoux]

Oh, puhleeeeez!

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/5467.htm

 

[jstarfireb]

I like Windows...at least I like it better than Mac OS!

Ahem...yeah. Windows suck. I understand why they happen, but I would much rather have a smaller, better cut gem (even of less desirable color) than a honker with an equally huge window.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Kenny is right, any stone can be cut with out a window. I have cut several thousands stones, and have never cut one with a window.

Gene,

With all respect, that is because you don’t cut normal rough. You probably cut only from the top quality plus you do not cut for weight.

If you would have to cut 100% of any mine’s output you’d either have to cut windows, or cut micro-stones, or discard 95% of the rough.

As a small miner you can’t do that. As a miner, you sell all you have to somebody who is happy to get his hands on some rough. Then the supply-chain goes up and up and nobody is willing to throw away or mirco-cut 95% of his inventory.

The reality in the market is thus that 95% of goods on offer (one look around confirms it) have windows (or some other terrible flaw).

Look at normal jewelry people wear in public. Nightmare.

This has been going on since the trade started.

What has changed is that people now begin to understand what a window is; and they don’t want them.

That is why top 5% gemstones have become soooo expensive in the last years. Add the treatment topic and you have a perfect storm.

While there is enough ignorance (for lack of better word) in the world's department stores, but also at Tiffany & Co., the 95% stuff will continue to be sold. Meanwhile the pressure on the 5% will increase ever more.

 

[Barrett]

Oh, puhleeeeez!

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/5467.htm

this is horrendous

 

[Deia]

Not a fan of windows either... I have a few gemstones that seem to have potential but have windows and I keep meaning to recut them...but they are still sitting in my jewelry box. I don't know who to send them to. Will get around to it one day...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Edward, after I made my posting, I was thinking exactly what you wrote. Custom "precision" cutters, typically are very selective of the rough we cut, selecting more blocky shaped stones, and not buying poorly shaped pieces, heavily included etc. However at times, I will buy a parcel of stones, and do end up with some more difficult shapes stones to work with.

I've talked with owners of cutting houses in China, and was surprised at the average low yield they report. I think some of this has to do with more limited shapes that are cut, but also a mindset.

I firmly believe that if you had 10 random identical stones, and had an experienced "precision" type cutter cut them, and a typical "commercial" cutter cut them, the precision cutter would end up with 10 stones that:

1> Would sell for a higher price
2> Totally weigh more
3> Be more beautiful.

Maybe some stones may be smaller, but on average the parcel would be larger. With more creative cutting, you end up with both a beautiful, non windowed stone, and also larger.

 

[mastercutgems]

It really all comes down to what the client wants... If they are not bothered by a window; they will just have more in this world to choose from.
If they like the precise cuts and strict adherence to optical properties of said mineral; they will spend a little extra for the more precise cuts... I like brilliant cuts; and I would rather take a butt-whipping than to cut a standard emerald cut or an asscher; but those two cuts are in demand so I will take the pain and cut one once in a while if I can not con my friends to cut them for me...

But I do understand Edward and I fight the urge to do it myself and I know I put a lot of extra gemstone grit down the drain like Gene does. But Edward is right; many of us long time cutters learned to buy select rough over mine run parcels as you really end up with a lot of gems that really are not worth our time to cut. It is like cutting quartz; it takes me the same amount of time to cut a 10 carat fine Afghanistan tourmaline as it does for me to cut a Bolivian Rose-de-France quartz... One brings 100 a carat and the other I would be lucky to get 15 a carat for. So we do have to manage our time as cutters to make the most of it. Similar to the overseas cutters as they too must manage their time and get the most out of it.

Like I said earlier I understand why they do it; it is not my path; but I feel the more educated the consumer is the more they will have an impact on the cutters of this world; as if no one buys a windowed gem; they will have to conform or the price of well cut gems will go out the roof. I think the cutters and the cutting houses will have to conform as it is too large of a business to let go by the wayside.

I see it taking shape now as I have friends with cutting houses in Tanzania and they are not cutting windowed gems; they do not cut the cuts I like but at least they stay above critical angle; it is a good start. They are at least trying to capitalize on the benefits of cutting a gem to the proper angles to yield a more optically correct gemstone. And they will get more money for them in the end as many cutting houses now are buying from the miners and then selling their finished gems to brokers. They are getting wiser and i applaud them...

After a cutter has seen what a finely cut gem looks like beside a lifeless windowed gem; it must be a pride in workmanship thing to make your work look the best you can; for yourself or your client.

Sorry for the long windedness but this is something that will be addressed only by education of both the consumer and the cutters/cutting houses of the world.

This is not meant to flame or insult anyone

Most respectfully;

Dana

 

[PrecisionGem]

I like Windows...at least I like it better than Mac OS!

.

Really? We purged our house of Windows a few years ago, and for us, there is no going back. RIP Steve!

 

[Edward Bristol]

Gene, I know you (or any modern cutter) can do 100 times better than the locals who can hardly read, let alone use a computer.

However, you will only touch parcels that have already been sorted and re-sorted for international sales. If you take 10 random rough from a random mine-run – there limits on what you and anybody could can do. Good rough is just so rare. Sure, you would do better at those bad fellows too, but you will not cut them.

Bad rough is left for bad cutters and still those gems go to the market and are
sold somewhere, somehow, on ebay and in department stores.

And Dana, yes, they have been getting so much better. Quality goes up all the time.

 

[distracts]

I understand that with rare gems, you often must cut to maximize weight in order to maximize profitability, with no regard to whether or not there are windows. What I don't understand is why this happens for cheaper gems and synthetics, where often the difference between one carat weight and another is measured in single dollars, or perhaps tens of dollars, and where it seems to me that a well-cut one would fetch several times more than a badly-cut one. Is it a function of the gem not being worth enough to cut well? Because if so, that's very sad.

 

[LD]

Oh, puhleeeeez!

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/5467.htm

this is horrendous

This orange diamond is a perfect example of something being cut to maximise weight and price. Look how flat it is. If this were to be cut without a window the gem would have been tiny. Currently it's 0.86ct and 7x6mm so, if you were to set this with a yellow gold closed based behind it, you'd not focus so much on the window. It's $6k for nearly a 1ct fancy intense orange diamond.

Let's assume this is re-cut to take out the window. It'd be what? 0.15ct - 0.25ct? Comparing the prices it'd be around $1,500-2,000 less the expense of re-cutting AND the colour could be affected. So, if you're a seller, would you rather keep a bigger diamond and a bigger selling price with a "fancy intense" label? Some people prefer size rather than look and wouldn't know a window if it opened and fell on them. They may want as big an orange diamond and as near to the 1ct mark they can get. So commercially, it can make sense not to mess around with it.

To us (junkies) it's an abomination but to "normal" non-junkies it's an orange diamond and nearly 1ct!

 

[T L]

I think that's a rose cut diamond, which are cut with a flat plane on one side and faceted on the other, or have crown facets on both sides. Normally they are actually very pretty in vintage jewelry. I saw a gorgeous necklace with all rose cut diamonds once. The window doesn't really ditract from the luster and sparkle off the facets in a diamond. It's one of the few, in not the only stone, you can cut in such a way and it still looks great. They're not for everyone, but I love them. Here's an e-ring with a rose cut diamond.

Unfortunately, in the orange diamond, having it cut in such a way doesn't do much for the color, but I assume the rough was extremely shallow and long.

ETA: Leibisch mentions that diamond is a rose cut. They're much prettier in person, you can't see the full effects in a static image.

Leon rose cut diamond ring.

http://artofplatinum.com/vault/inde...ge.tpl&category_id=1&product_id=1222&Itemid=1

 

[jstarfireb]

I like Windows...at least I like it better than Mac OS!

.

Really? We purged our house of Windows a few years ago, and for us, there is no going back. RIP Steve!

I'll never turn to the dark side! My computers will always be PCs and my cell phones will always be Android.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I like Windows...at least I like it better than Mac OS!

.

Really? We purged our house of Windows a few years ago, and for us, there is no going back. RIP Steve!

I'll never turn to the dark side! My computers will always be PCs and my cell phones will always be Android.

That's what I thought too for almost 20 years. I don't view Apple as the dark side, it's actually the colorful side.


Back to the Windows. Edward you are right about the rough, I don't buy tinny flat odd shapes, and I know that someone does get stuck with them. But still, as was brought up, you do see windowed lab created stones, and Amethyst, Topaz and Citrine that are not expensive in the rough, cut poorly. I really don't think it's always for weight. I contend give me the same piece of rough and I'll get a bigger stone most of the time. It's just bad cutting. And it's not about cutting for color, unless a very very dark stone. A windowed stone always has worse color, just look at one, the nice intense color is around the outside where it's not windowed.

It's kind of like a Dell laptop, just isn't made as well as a Mac Book. No comparision.

 

[lelser]

It's not a zero sum game. There is room for people who cut precision gems and for commercial cutting.

I cut a couple of hundred gems a year. That's my choice, and it allows me to make a living and still enjoy doing it. There's time to explore new designs, prototype, and have fun, not to mention work with clients, keep the books, travel to buy rough...

I've known people who cut in a month more than I do in a year. They show up each morning, cut all day, go home and payday's Friday. It's absurd to claim that I'm a "better cutter" than these guys, because I have the leisure and choice to cut more time consuming designs and put more thought into my rough selection. They don't select, they get handed a tray and make something nice out of material that I'd ignore.

Back when I worked in a jewelry store in my transition from IT wonk to professional gem cutter, it was striking how the cost and quality of the jewellery made NO difference in the joy it brought to the buyer. I watched a young couple just over the moon with the $120 promise ring he bought her. It was a dust speck of a diamond in 10k gold but meant the world to them. If the gem makes it's owner happy then it's doing the job.

I seek out people who value what I do. Those are my clients. What I don't do is think less of people who have different values.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com

 

[Edward Bristol]

Lisa,

Right-on-spot. My thinking too. I search only the best stones and will not compromise (though I did have to compromise when we were running closer to the mines) and I will not sell cheaper just to make more sales. I want my stones to get better, not more.

More is so out.

Ed

 

[Aoife]

It's not a zero sum game. There is room for people who cut precision gems and for commercial cutting.

I cut a couple of hundred gems a year. That's my choice, and it allows me to make a living and still enjoy doing it. There's time to explore new designs, prototype, and have fun, not to mention work with clients, keep the books, travel to buy rough...

I've known people who cut in a month more than I do in a year. They show up each morning, cut all day, go home and payday's Friday. It's absurd to claim that I'm a "better cutter" than these guys, because I have the leisure and choice to cut more time consuming designs and put more thought into my rough selection. They don't select, they get handed a tray and make something nice out of material that I'd ignore.

Back when I worked in a jewelry store in my transition from IT wonk to professional gem cutter, it was striking how the cost and quality of the jewellery made NO difference in the joy it brought to the buyer. I watched a young couple just over the moon with the $120 promise ring he bought her. It was a dust speck of a diamond in 10k gold but meant the world to them. If the gem makes it's owner happy then it's doing the job.

I seek out people who value what I do. Those are my clients. What I don't do is think less of people who have different values.

Cheers,

Lisa
www.lisaelser.com

Bravo, Lisa. Or Brava, whichever

 

[gsellis]

There are also good reasons to cut windows. I have a couple dark blue sapphires that I am going to window to lighten them up. And I have a couple spinels that are just too thin. Solution? Cut a windowed novelty cut. I have a 6ish mm pink spinel from Viet Nam with the cat face in it. I had to leave the whiskers off though as it was so small.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Lisa, I'm not sure if your posting was directed to me or not. I hope you don't think any less of me if my opinions on cutting are different then yours! I don't think any less of the people who work either in commercial cutting housings, or near the mines doing cutting with windows. Since much of the market doesn't demand better cutting it's not needed, and therefore they are producing a salable product. I do think the same stone cut better could produce more income for them.

 

[Aoife]

Lisa, I'm not sure if your posting was directed to me or not. I hope you don't think any less of me if my opinions on cutting are different then yours! I don't think any less of the people who work either in commercial cutting housings, or near the mines doing cutting with windows. Since much of the market doesn't demand better cutting it's not needed, and therefore they are producing a salable product. I do think the same stone cut better could produce more income for them.

Gene, I'm obviously not Lisa, and can't speak for her, but I read her comment not as being directed at anyone, simply as a general observation.

I think what this thread has shown is that there is a diversity of valid opinions, and as a consumer, I find that helpful. Personally, I seldom buy a gemstone with a window, and have a preference for precision cut stones. But that's my bias, and Lisa's reminder that the pleasure a gemstone gives is not necessarily related to whether or not it's precision cut is, for me, a good one.