I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schools

[smitcompton]

are now requiring students to bring toilet paper and paper towels as part of their supplies. The schools who take our tax money are a bit short. I live in Ill.

I really care about the public school system. I have been involved with alernative schooling, but I would like a civil discussion on what to do about this.

I know we might have some who would perhaps , attack the teachers,or the unions. or attack the welfare programs that schools are involved in(Free breakfast, free lunch, free day care etc.) Something has happened. Please speak in generalities, We know something bad is going on. How do you think it can be fixed or repaired?

I'll start off with.

I don't think teachers have the power to change much. Schools that have discipline problems have too lberal policies in my opinion.

Teachers Pensions ought to be cut , along with other government workers as the society can no longer afford to pay them. The boom is over. I like teachers alot. We can't do with out them so don't pick on this with "How dare you.

If this isn't at all interesting please don't post. Make up your own

Toilet Paper-how many rolls will our kids have to bring.????

Annette

 

[rainwood]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

If it's okay, I'd probably take a slightly different tack.

One of the issues about schools I've been interested in is all the teachers and ex-teachers we have on PS who find their jobs frustrating, sometimes to the point of leaving the school or profession. Because you have an insider's view, what would you teachers and ex-teachers do to change the education system in the U.S., either from the perspective of the school(s) you've taught in or from a national perspective?

This really is something I'm interested in knowing and no one knows better than a teacher what is wrong with how we do things now and what might be improved.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

 

[yssie]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

I thought so too, until I spent a year working at one.

I worked with inner-city fourth/fifth graders whose parents didn't give a damn either way, whose teachers often tried at first but got jaded really quickly, and who themselves had no self-motivation or self-interests - why study and *possibly* make it out of the slums, if you can sell drugs and live the good life like uncle A, uncle B, uncle C, dad, grandpa A, grandpa B, and all the neighbours?

The school literally had kids reading and doing math all day. Now they were even *more* unmotivated and bored - and the school still 'failed'. At least with a gym class and a music class, *some* of them found something they enjoyed and excelled at, and they all ran around for a bit and didn't fidget from 10am til 3pm...

 

[Tuckins1]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

I have to disagree. These programs are ESSENTIAL for children, especially in the inner city, poorer schools. This might be the only exposure they get to culture and exercise... While I do agree that perhaps schools don't need brand new football fields or new equipment, but I think it is a travesty to take away exposure to art, music, and physical activity. (This country has an epidemic of childhood obesity which causes a host of serious health problems....)

 

[anitabee]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

are now requiring students to bring toilet paper and paper towels as part of their supplies. The schools who take our tax money are a bit short. I live in Ill.

I really care about the public school system. I have been involved with alernative schooling, but I would like a civil discussion on what to do about this.

I know we might have some who would perhaps , attack the teachers,or the unions. or attack the welfare programs that schools are involved in(Free breakfast, free lunch, free day care etc.) Something has happened. Please speak in generalities, We know something bad is going on. How do you think it can be fixed or repaired?

I'll start off with.

I don't think teachers have the power to change much. Schools that have discipline problems have too lberal policies in my opinion.

Teachers Pensions ought to be cut , along with other government workers as the society can no longer afford to pay them. The boom is over. I like teachers alot. We can't do with out them so don't pick on this with "How dare you.

Annette

wow! i'm a high school teacher in canada so obviously some of this is not directly relevant but if you think teachers' pensions should be cut, do you not think that the profession of teaching would be severely downgraded? who on earth, in their right mind, would want to go into teaching if they knew they had NO PENSION PLAN!

teaching is a gruelling and demanding career that requires you to to be university educated. here in canada, you need to have completed at least 5 years of university. it's not a joke job. it is a career that should be respected.

secondly, i'm hugely against the idea of cutting any "non-academic programs" (arts, gym, sports, etc). we're preparing these kids to become adults and not all kids fare well academically but they MAY do well in music or gym or shop. these programs are what keeps these kids coming to school! also, i think that music IS academic in its own way and so is physical education and so is metal shop. we all have different preferences in life and we need to cater to preparing some of these kids to do something non-academic like pursuing a trade such as woodworking or plumbing.

sigh. my rant is over. please god, don't ever cut my pension plan!

 

[Kasey3]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

WOW-where do you work? I am a "city employee" and I pay the same tax rate as everyone else and I certainly don't make twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living-AND I also pay a large portion of my health insurance and pension. You should not generalize because it is not true for all.

Perhaps you need to see a breakdown of where the money is being spent. One VERY large portion of a school's budgets-larger than teacher salaries and pensions are paid to lawyers. Shocking but true!

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Regarding toilet paper:

I work in a public school in NYC, last year our custodial staff was switched out towards the end of the year. The new head custodian ordered the wrong size of toilet paper to fit into the dispensers. We ran out of toilet paper for the whole school two months before school ended. I wanted to ask parents to please send in toilet paper but we were not allowed to tell parents that we ran out. I bought toilet paper and brought it in so my students would have it to use.

It was unfortunate and annoying, if your school is asking for supplies, realize it's for a reason, if you don't send it, your kid most likely won't have it.

I hate to think about the money I have laid out for school supplies and classroom supplies for my students because my school just doesn't have anything and we're not allowed to ask parents for anything. I literally spent 3k last year on everything from markers and paper to cleaning supplies.

One thing I have definitely learned, parents complaining to teachers does nothing, parents have to complain directly to administrators to get anything done. Administrators, at least where I am from, could care less about what a teacher thinks, when a parent complains it's a whole different story. The vocal parents involved in their school boards are the ones who get what they want. Good luck!

 

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Yep, schools are having to ask parents to help with the cost of supplies because of the state of the economy. So many people are either losing/walking away from their homes that less and less revenue is coming into the school system from property taxes. Teachers are already burdened with buying much of the supplies themselves. It takes quite a bit of $ to supply a classroom for 18+ children for the entire year. They are asking parents because it's just not feasible for every.single.expense to come out of the teacher's pocket when they already don't make a huge salary. And to take away teacher pensions...wow. I think you'd be hard pressed to find good teachers coming into the profession if even more money was taken away. Most teachers work at least 9 hour days (more if you coach or sponsor clubs), most of the time with no lunch break or maybe a quick 15 mins. while still monitoring students. Yes, there are holidays and breaks, but most come in lots over the summer to prepare and stay later than students do to get out grades. I don't think they are asking for things such as toilet paper out of pettiness, it is out of necessity.

 

[ForteKitty]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

i'm somewhat offended but wanted to clarify some misconceptions. I work for LA County. We are not bankrupt like the CIty of LA, and our pensions do not come from the public. We contribute to it like a retirement fund, and we draw from it when we retire.

LA county employees pay the full Federal Tax, the full State Tax, we pay all our city taxes and property tax. As far as I know, every City employee pays the same taxs, with no discounts. County employees do not pay into SS, but we are NOT ALLOWED TO CLAIM EITHER. We do pay HIT so we get the medicare portion, but even thought we have the medicare portion deducted, we can't claim the full medicare benefits when we reach 62, is that fair?

As for pensions, are you kidding me? It's not free money. Current employees put in about 12% each month, while our retirement investors put it to good use, so that money pays for pensions of current retirees. Our future pension comes strictly from the retirement fund, not any other funds from the city, county, state, or feds. Fortunately, our retirement investors are good at what they do, so we are doing well. Yes, our salary is from tax payers, but our pensions are not, it comes from what we all contribute right now!!

I dont know where you live, but I'd LOVE to work there.


ETA: i make about 30% LESS than my peers in the private sector. I know the engineers i work with could be making a lot more in private as well. I work there because 1) it's 4 miles from home and i hate LA traffic. 2) my 10 hour work days allow me to have fridays off. 3) I love having 3 day weekends every week.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My feelings about educational expensies are kind of all over the place so I'll have to break it down more. Do I think money is wasted? YES. But I know how that goes, I waste money too. Do I think it's a shame that you even have to consider cutting someone's pension when there are athletes and movie stars and ridiculously overpriced CEOs out there? YES! I think teachers should be amongst the highest paid careers so that there is more competition and more COMPETENCY at the top. Then I think it would be worth raising taxes (yeah I said raise) over. But there are so many twists and turns in the situation, it's impossible to just make a blanket statement that truly covers all of their needs.

I had more respect for the teaching in Europe for one... and my kids are now in an international private school that is ridiculously expensive but better than any school they've been in america.

How many toilet paper rolls? None. My kids are only required to have a backpack and either lunch or money for lunch. They provide pencils, paper, books, markers, crayons, kleenex... everything else.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

however fiscally prudent it is I will never actively support eliminating music, art, and sports from a school. I would however like to see the funding for the three be EQUAL instead of ridiculously weighted in favor of athletics. The school my kids are in put the weight in this order: Art, Music, Sports. I love that!!!

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Kasey and ForteKitty: The city workers I am referring to in my post work in Toledo, Ohio. Their pensions are not publicly funded. It's too late for me to edit, but my sentence is not structured very well! Of the city workers that have come through my office all of them have made at least $30.00 per hour and sometimes even more, plus overtime and "deferred compensation", which is when the worker performs work but that the city does not have the funds to pay them so it's saved up and is paid out at a later date. They pay a very small percentage of their health insurance premiums, and pay less tax than what seems normal, at least compared to similarly earning, non-city workers that have come through my office. Toledo has been crying poor for so many years but every year it's the same thing. The city workers do not want to contribute more to their already generous benefit packages or take a cut in pay (unions) so services are slashed. The city is truly a mess. I do not live in Toledo but I do work there so I see it first hand and it is scary!

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

are now requiring students to bring toilet paper and paper towels as part of their supplies. The schools who take our tax money are a bit short. I live in Ill.

I really care about the public school system. I have been involved with alernative schooling, but I would like a civil discussion on what to do about this.

I know we might have some who would perhaps , attack the teachers,or the unions. or attack the welfare programs that schools are involved in(Free breakfast, free lunch, free day care etc.) Something has happened. Please speak in generalities, We know something bad is going on. How do you think it can be fixed or repaired?

I'll start off with.

I don't think teachers have the power to change much. Schools that have discipline problems have too lberal policies in my opinion.

Teachers Pensions ought to be cut , along with other government workers as the society can no longer afford to pay them. The boom is over. I like teachers alot. We can't do with out them so don't pick on this with "How dare you.

If this isn't at all interesting please don't post. Make up your own

Toilet Paper-how many rolls will our kids have to bring.????

Annette

This attitude (and it is deeply embedded into society now) is very indicative of how teachers' status has declined over the decades. It's almost like we have collective educational Madonna/Whore complex. In spite of the traditional honor they were once given , and the high level of education they have, and are generally expected to keep current and increase, they are regarded (see above) as "government workers", with status not much higher than clerical or ditch diggers, and as such expendable and able to be abused with impunity at the first sign of financial stress. They are not, or should not be. It also says much about us as a society that we are always willing to cut education. Puts the lie to our collective protests that education is so so important.

It also speaks to the idea that teachers are born, not made - read, we don't need to invest money in their training or mentoring, because there are "teacher types" out there, and if one doesn't do what we want, heck, fire 'em, there's endless numbers of them in the wings. They're pretty much interchangeable, like...ditchdiggers. Another one of those things that isn't true.

If the economy were not the way it is at the moment, these are NOT people with nothing else they can do. In fact, given the burn-out rate among teaching ranks, I'd say that many of them DO do something else that pays more, has less stress, and better retirement and insurance. Which leaves only the very dedicated, the very strong, and sometimes the ineffective. But not being stupid people, the vast majority of teachers go in knowing (at least intellectually, reality is usually a shocker) that the pay and status is low, but they do it anyway, because they're pretty idealistic, as a group. And no other group of college educated people is asked to put up with so much for so little. Beware, there is only so much of a screwing at the hands of society, that they can stand, like any people. I find it a shame that teaching is quickly being reduced to short term "job" for a dilettante on the way to something more lucrative (or that will just freakin' pay the bills!), rather than a calling or a career.

So yeah, put me down as one who would gladly pay more to keep education and those who transmit it, afloat. A pension is not much to ask for years of low-status and the ire of society, is it?

 

[Miss Sparkly]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

Sparkly's blood pressure just went thru the roof! Okay, I know, nothing personal not directed at anybody - really I know. But, it still makes me cry to hear somebody say that music should be taken away. Did you know that music saved my life? If it wasn't for my amazing father who introduced me to music, and the family that band provided me, that I would have killed myself thanks to an abusive mother. It was once said that music speaks when words fail. I believe that to be true. Music, art, drama and sports all provide a sense of community, teamwork and accomplishment that a regular classroom cannot. There must be other ways to help the school system - but, untill I calm down (like I said, I know it was nothing personal and that it's all coming from inside me) I can't think of anything

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

however fiscally prudent it is I will never actively support eliminating music, art, and sports from a school. I would however like to see the funding for the three be EQUAL instead of ridiculously weighted in favor of athletics. The school my kids are in put the weight in this order: Art, Music, Sports. I love that!!!

The schools around here operate in the opposite direction. Football, boys sports, girls sports, sports, sports, sports. You get the picture. It is disgusting. Some schools have cut transportation in order to keep the football team up and running I think that is just ridiculous!

I have no experience with inner city schools, but for me, it boils down to making choices. You can go to school, do well, and do better for yourself if you choose to. Nobody said it would be easy and nobody said it would be fun breaking the drug dealer/welfare lifestyle. I think it's sad that some parents do not care about their kids' education because it is so important.

 

[anitabee]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

are now requiring students to bring toilet paper and paper towels as part of their supplies. The schools who take our tax money are a bit short. I live in Ill.

I really care about the public school system. I have been involved with alernative schooling, but I would like a civil discussion on what to do about this.

I know we might have some who would perhaps , attack the teachers,or the unions. or attack the welfare programs that schools are involved in(Free breakfast, free lunch, free day care etc.) Something has happened. Please speak in generalities, We know something bad is going on. How do you think it can be fixed or repaired?

I'll start off with.

I don't think teachers have the power to change much. Schools that have discipline problems have too lberal policies in my opinion.

Teachers Pensions ought to be cut , along with other government workers as the society can no longer afford to pay them. The boom is over. I like teachers alot. We can't do with out them so don't pick on this with "How dare you.

If this isn't at all interesting please don't post. Make up your own

Toilet Paper-how many rolls will our kids have to bring.????

Annette

This attitude (and it is deeply embedded into society now) is very indicative of how teachers' status has declined over the decades. It's almost like we have collective educational Madonna/Whore complex. In spite of the traditional honor they were once given , and the high level of education they have, and are generally expected to keep current and increase, they are regarded (see above) as "government workers", with status not much higher than clerical or ditch diggers, and as such expendable and able to be abused with impunity at the first sign of financial stress. They are not, or should not be. It also says much about us as a society that we are always willing to cut education. Puts the lie to our collective protests that education is so so important.

It also speaks to the idea that teachers are born, not made - read, we don't need to invest money in their training or mentoring, because there are "teacher types" out there, and if one doesn't do what we want, heck, fire 'em, there's endless numbers of them in the wings. They're pretty much interchangeable, like...ditchdiggers. Another one of those things that isn't true.

If the economy were not the way it is at the moment, these are NOT people with nothing else they can do. In fact, given the burn-out rate among teaching ranks, I'd say that many of them DO do something else that pays more, has less stress, and better retirement and insurance. Which leaves only the very dedicated, the very strong, and sometimes the ineffective. But not being stupid people, the vast majority of teachers go in knowing (at least intellectually, reality is usually a shocker) that the pay and status is low, but they do it anyway, because they're pretty idealistic, as a group. And no other group of college educated people is asked to put up with so much for so little. Beware, there is only so much of a screwing at the hands of society, that they can stand, like any people. I find it a shame that teaching is quickly being reduced to short term "job" for a dilettante on the way to something more lucrative (or that will just freakin' pay the bills!), rather than a calling or a career.

So yeah, put me down as one who would gladly pay more to keep education and those who transmit it, afloat. A pension is not much to ask for years of low-status and the ire of society, is it?

HERE HERE!

it's so nice to hear some supportive comments of us teachers mind you, is it really about us? are teachers the main objective here? no! it's primarily about the kids and what's best for them.

thanks ksinger

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Our school district in Oregon had an emergency bond vote that was going to be used to renovate some schools build 3 new ones because the ones we had were severely overcrowded. It was going to cost each homeowner A QUARTER A MONTH and they voted it down.

Feng la!!!!!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

it's so nice to hear some supportive comments of us teachers mind you, is it really about us? are teachers the main objective here? no! it's primarily about the kids and what's best for them.

thanks ksinger

Actually I do think it's quite a lot do do with teachers... like on airplanes when they tell you to put your own mask on first... if a teacher is well taken care of she will love her job more and be more effective at it. I have seen some teachers really struggling, and losing, and while I feel bad to an extent, the children suffer for it.

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

are now requiring students to bring toilet paper and paper towels as part of their supplies. The schools who take our tax money are a bit short. I live in Ill.

I really care about the public school system. I have been involved with alernative schooling, but I would like a civil discussion on what to do about this.

I know we might have some who would perhaps , attack the teachers,or the unions. or attack the welfare programs that schools are involved in(Free breakfast, free lunch, free day care etc.) Something has happened. Please speak in generalities, We know something bad is going on. How do you think it can be fixed or repaired?

I'll start off with.

I don't think teachers have the power to change much. Schools that have discipline problems have too lberal policies in my opinion.

Teachers Pensions ought to be cut , along with other government workers as the society can no longer afford to pay them. The boom is over. I like teachers alot. We can't do with out them so don't pick on this with "How dare you.

If this isn't at all interesting please don't post. Make up your own

Toilet Paper-how many rolls will our kids have to bring.????

Annette

This attitude (and it is deeply embedded into society now) is very indicative of how teachers' status has declined over the decades. It's almost like we have collective educational Madonna/Whore complex. In spite of the traditional honor they were once given , and the high level of education they have, and are generally expected to keep current and increase, they are regarded (see above) as "government workers", with status not much higher than clerical or ditch diggers, and as such expendable and able to be abused with impunity at the first sign of financial stress. They are not, or should not be. It also says much about us as a society that we are always willing to cut education. Puts the lie to our collective protests that education is so so important.

It also speaks to the idea that teachers are born, not made - read, we don't need to invest money in their training or mentoring, because there are "teacher types" out there, and if one doesn't do what we want, heck, fire 'em, there's endless numbers of them in the wings. They're pretty much interchangeable, like...ditchdiggers. Another one of those things that isn't true.

If the economy were not the way it is at the moment, these are NOT people with nothing else they can do. In fact, given the burn-out rate among teaching ranks, I'd say that many of them DO do something else that pays more, has less stress, and better retirement and insurance. Which leaves only the very dedicated, the very strong, and sometimes the ineffective. But not being stupid people, the vast majority of teachers go in knowing (at least intellectually, reality is usually a shocker) that the pay and status is low, but they do it anyway, because they're pretty idealistic, as a group. And no other group of college educated people is asked to put up with so much for so little. Beware, there is only so much of a screwing at the hands of society, that they can stand, like any people. I find it a shame that teaching is quickly being reduced to short term "job" for a dilettante on the way to something more lucrative (or that will just freakin' pay the bills!), rather than a calling or a career.

So yeah, put me down as one who would gladly pay more to keep education and those who transmit it, afloat. A pension is not much to ask for years of low-status and the ire of society, is it?

HERE HERE!

it's so nice to hear some supportive comments of us teachers mind you, is it really about us? are teachers the main objective here? no! it's primarily about the kids and what's best for them.

thanks ksinger

Yes, it IS about the teachers, to a goodly extent. Until we quit thinking we can get education on the cheap, that our teachers are cogs, and that repeatedly replacing them in a panic because we refused to invest in them and think they should be our whipping boys, we won't have good overall education outcomes. If you want to put it in economic terms, which I personally loathe, how can you make a good product with undernourished, underpaid, undervalued, and scared workers?

And no thanks required. I'm married to one, who is the son of a teacher (they taught/teach in the same school/same subject - kinda a weird deal). We talk teaching/education/schools and their issues pretty much every single day.

 

[House Cat]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

 

[Maria D]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

There was an ad for a middle school teacher in my district recently. The position required a B.S. in Math with a master's degree in either Math or Teaching Secondary Math. Along with actually teaching kids math, the job duties included liaising with the community, frequent contact with parents, ability to differentiate instruction for a wide variety of abilities in a heterogeneous classroom that would include main-steamed special ed students, and taking on an extra-curricular activity. Punchline: starting pay was $32K.

According to payscale.com, the average starting salary for a 2010 B.S. Math grad (never mind the M.S.) from the state university who gets a job as an actuary is $54K. And you would get a transferrable pension, meaning if you moved out of state, your accrued employer funded social security benefits go with you. This is not true for Maine teachers. We don't pay into S.S. but into the state's pension fund. If we move out of state before retiring we relinquish state contributions. On top of that, any SS retirement payments we have coming to us in the form of spousal benefits or prior jobs from which we paid into the system are reduced through the "Windfall Elimination Program." Windfall, ha! As if SS retirement checks are winning the lottery.

I am a math teacher. My top students are musicians. I see music, art and sports as necessities although I agree that the gross overemphasis of sports is wrong and even damaging. Too many students let their academics suffer to be be 3 season athletes. And for what? So that they can have glory high school days and go downhill after that? They are led to believe that there are an abundance of college sports scholarships out there that can be had despite mediocre grades and that's simply not true. Not to mention that it leaves them woefully unprepared for college classes.

I don't have "the answer" but I do wish it were easier to get rid of bad teachers. They are far from common, but they are out there and administrators usually take the easiest route in dealing with them which is to assign them to the lowest classes. These are the students that need the best teachers, not the worst.

Wow, I did not mean to write this rant. Here is my real purpose in posting...

Go to this website http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/ and pledge to see "Waiting for Superman" when it comes out this fall. You will get a $5 coupon code to spend at donorschoose.org. Free money to fund a worthy teacher's project! Hopefully we won't all be begging for t.p.

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Well, here's a happy statistic that the hubs just found out yesterday. Of the 1100-some-odd students in his building this year, 700 are classified as special ed and ELL. Don't know the split on how many of each.

His principal was telling him yesterday of a kid who'd had problems, (read: thug) who had only attended 3 weeks of 7th grade, NONE of 8th grade and then showed up to enroll in 9th grade. Can't put him back in 7th, unless people want a gang-banger 9th grader in with their 7th grade sons and daughters, can't kick him entirely out, because public school is his right, so they had to enroll him in 9th. Any guesses as to what this kid will do to the school's overall test scores? That the teachers are blamed for? Or the sheer amount of effort required to drag him (likely kicking and screaming) up to any level? Or how much that takes away from other kids who ARE there to learn? And what as a society do we do with these kids? Do we kick them out? Send them straight to a prison system? I mean, that's where they're headed if we don't do SOMETHING...

What we need is an alternative school system that would get kids like this up to speed (of course it still won't help the fact that his parents are reprehensible idiots who failed to make their kid go to school), but that would be incredibly expensive, and would require all of us (society) to admit we have a problem, and would require that the parents have to face the fact that they have miserably failed their kid, who is now likely a lifetime dumbass, with little remediation in sight. And no one wants to hear that, not even the mom in a wifebeater and sporting jailhouse tats, who comes to a 9am teacher conference DRUNK.

No, I'm not making this up...

my gawd but this state has SUCH an animosity towards education.

Sorry folks, for the....negativity, but this year is just going to be brutal. I hope we both survive the stress....

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

There was an ad for a middle school teacher in my district recently. The position required a B.S. in Math with a master's degree in either Math or Teaching Secondary Math. Along with actually teaching kids math, the job duties included liaising with the community, frequent contact with parents, ability to differentiate instruction for a wide variety of abilities in a heterogeneous classroom that would include main-steamed special ed students, and taking on an extra-curricular activity. Punchline: starting pay was $32K.

According to payscale.com, the average starting salary for a 2010 B.S. Math grad (never mind the M.S.) from the state university who gets a job as an actuary is $54K. And you would get a transferrable pension, meaning if you moved out of state, your accrued employer funded social security benefits go with you. This is not true for Maine teachers. We don't pay into S.S. but into the state's pension fund. If we move out of state before retiring we relinquish state contributions. On top of that, any SS retirement payments we have coming to us in the form of spousal benefits or prior jobs from which we paid into the system are reduced through the "Windfall Elimination Program." Windfall, ha! As if SS retirement checks are winning the lottery.

I am a math teacher. My top students are musicians. I see music, art and sports as necessities although I agree that the gross overemphasis of sports is wrong and even damaging. Too many students let their academics suffer to be be 3 season athletes. And for what? So that they can have glory high school days and go downhill after that? They are led to believe that there are an abundance of college sports scholarships out there that can be had despite mediocre grades and that's simply not true. Not to mention that it leaves them woefully unprepared for college classes.

I don't have "the answer" but I do wish it were easier to get rid of bad teachers. They are far from common, but they are out there and administrators usually take the easiest route in dealing with them which is to assign them to the lowest classes. These are the students that need the best teachers, not the worst.

Wow, I did not mean to write this rant. Here is my real purpose in posting...

Go to this website http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/ and pledge to see "Waiting for Superman" when it comes out this fall. You will get a $5 coupon code to spend at donorschoose.org. Free money to fund a worthy teacher's project! Hopefully we won't all be begging for t.p.

ETA: ( Insert uproarious, sardonic laughter here )

But remember now, teachers and their cushy pensions are a drain on society.

You should see the payscales at in my husband's district. Of all the actual teaching positions, from those with a bachelor's, all the way up to those with a PhD and 20+ years, NO position ever hits 60,000/year.

 

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

Just FYI as a former Kindergarten teacher, I kind of take offense at saying you are paying teacher's salaries for nap time. Well, we only had about a 15 minute rest time for the first few weeks of school and I can assure you I was never sitting on my bum. I was using that time to write parent's notes, get homework graded/ready to go out for the day, preparing plans for the next day, etc. There was actually NEVER a time in the 9 hours I worked a day to sit on my bum, even lunchtime was monitored by the teachers. I do agree with you about the tests though. It is too much pressure for these little ones. I worked at a private school, so I didn't have to go through as much red tape, but my son is in public K now and I can see how it is affecting the workload. It's too much for these little ones...we have some sort of homework every night.

 

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Thank you KSinger for your comments. It is so sad to see great teachers get so burnt out over red tape, lack of respect, and unreasonable expectations from both parents and admin. People don't seem to understand that teachers are the key to our future.

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

Just FYI as a former Kindergarten teacher, I kind of take offense at saying you are paying teacher's salaries for nap time. Well, we only had about a 15 minute rest time for the first few weeks of school and I can assure you I was never sitting on my bum. I was using that time to write parent's notes, get homework graded/ready to go out for the day, preparing plans for the next day, etc. There was actually NEVER a time in the 9 hours I worked a day to sit on my bum, even lunchtime was monitored by the teachers. I do agree with you about the tests though. It is too much pressure for these little ones. I worked at a private school, so I didn't have to go through as much red tape, but my son is in public K now and I can see how it is affecting the workload. It's too much for these little ones...we have some sort of homework every night.

I'm tellin' ya, it's a Madonna/Whore complex. Big time.

HouseCat, do you honestly think your child's kindergarten teacher sets policy? Secures funding? WANTS their kids to be tested to death? I don't know ANY teacher who thinks the testing environment as it exists now, is a good thing. They think it SUCKS. For the kids and for them. But they aren't paying their own meager salaries. They do what the admin and society demands they do. And for every parent like you who thinks it's too much, there is another parent on the other side of the table. And the school must try to satisfy ALL of you, while adhering to federal mandate, and obtaining funding and.....

Believe me, "these people" DO look at their education practices, but they aren't calling the shots. Your child's teacher is just trying to get through the day. For god's sake, let them HAVE that 15 minutes to rest and get some other stuff done. What's so wrong with giving a person a break? Every job I've ever worked on gave ME paid breaks. Jeez, why do we act like teachers are some other species, or out to take us to the cleaners?

 

[yennyfire]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I have my degree in counseling and worked in a high school as a school counselor for several years before moving and not being able to find a counseling position here in GA. I say this to preface my comments, since I have worked in the educational system and have the utmost respect for teachers and educators in general. I am in awe of them as a matter of fact and amazed at all they manage in the course of a day.

I think that our society is backwards...after all, every company president, doctor, engineer, etc. had many, many teachers who shaped him/her. They wouldn't be where they are without them, yet we pay teachers very little, they get very little support and even less respect ("those who can do, those who can't....you get where I'm going)....we should be making teaching a highly valued profession, to lure as many bright, enthusiastic people as we can into the "pool". The starting pay for a teacher here in GA is about $30K (I believe...it's been a while since I've looked).


I've worked in both inner city schools and in very affluent schools and while the problems are different, the result is the same. On one end, you have many parents who don't care and on the other, parents who care too much and who think their kids can do no wrong.

This year, I'm a parent to a child in the school system (my son started kindergarten a few weeks ago). We live in an upper middle class area and we were asked to bring in a bag of supplies for the class, including wipes, paper towels, 3 boxes of crayons, etc. It was quite a long list. We are also asked to donate to the foundation, which provides all of the extras that the district cannot fund. When the district was going to have to split one para-pro between two classes, the foundation made up the difference so that each teacher could continue to have a decidicated para-pro. I'm happy to support the foundation so that my child (and others) can get the best education possible. I also volunteer in the classroom once a month (I would do more, but so many of us want to, that they've had to limit it to once a month) and in the media center the 3rd Thursday...our school has lots of great parent support. I do hope that our parents support the teachers and don't have the attitude that their kid can do no wrong. If I ever have a problem with the way something is handled, I plan to discuss it with the teacher privately. I would never undercut a teacher in front of my kid.

All of this said (and I hope you can tell that I totally support teachers), I have no problem with a pension, but I DO have a problem with tenure. Having iron clad job security that completely eliminates the ability of the disctrict to terminate poor teachers is a debacle in my opinion. My niece had a horrible kindergarten teacher. She's been teaching for 30 years and had been terrible for at least 15 of them (I know this b/c my neighbors youngest son had her as an art teacher 15 years ago and the rumor was that they moved her to kindergarten so that she only had interaction with one class, as opposed to the entire school, since every class had her as an art teacher). The fact that petitions have been signed over the years, complaints lodged, etc. has had no impact b/c she has tenure. That really boils my blood. My little niece, who is a people pleaser, had her self esteem so damaged that she needed a therapist b/c she said that "she couldn't do anything right"....this sweet little 5 year old was depressed. Thank goodness, she had a great teacher last year and over the course of the year, her self esteem recovered somewhat, but the experience in kindergarten clearly had an impact on her personality.

So, while I would totally support the need for art, music, PE, I would say get rid of tenure, so that teachers who are at the top of the earning ceiling and are not effective can be let go and fresher/newer teachers brought in at the lower end of the pay scale. Yes, if they are good teachers, then they will continue to earn more each year, but surely eliminating tenure would provide additional funds for some of these other areas?

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I have my degree in counseling and worked in a high school as a school counselor for several years before moving and not being able to find a counseling position here in GA. I say this to preface my comments, since I have worked in the educational system and have the utmost respect for teachers and educators in general. I am in awe of them as a matter of fact and amazed at all they manage in the course of a day.

I think that our society is backwards...after all, every company president, doctor, engineer, etc. had many, many teachers who shaped him/her. They wouldn't be where they are without them, yet we pay teachers very little, they get very little support and even less respect ("those who can do, those who can't....you get where I'm going)....we should be making teaching a highly valued profession, to lure as many bright, enthusiastic people as we can into the "pool". The starting pay for a teacher here in GA is about $30K (I believe...it's been a while since I've looked).


I've worked in both inner city schools and in very affluent schools and while the problems are different, the result is the same. On one end, you have many parents who don't care and on the other, parents who care too much and who think their kids can do no wrong.

This year, I'm a parent to a child in the school system (my son started kindergarten a few weeks ago). We live in an upper middle class area and we were asked to bring in a bag of supplies for the class, including wipes, paper towels, 3 boxes of crayons, etc. It was quite a long list. We are also asked to donate to the foundation, which provides all of the extras that the district cannot fund. When the district was going to have to split one para-pro between two classes, the foundation made up the difference so that each teacher could continue to have a decidicated para-pro. I'm happy to support the foundation so that my child (and others) can get the best education possible. I also volunteer in the classroom once a month (I would do more, but so many of us want to, that they've had to limit it to once a month) and in the media center the 3rd Thursday...our school has lots of great parent support. I do hope that our parents support the teachers and don't have the attitude that their kid can do no wrong. If I ever have a problem with the way something is handled, I plan to discuss it with the teacher privately. I would never undercut a teacher in front of my kid.

All of this said (and I hope you can tell that I totally support teachers), I have no problem with a pension, but I DO have a problem with tenure. Having iron clad job security that completely eliminates the ability of the disctrict to terminate poor teachers is a debacle in my opinion. My niece had a horrible kindergarten teacher. She's been teaching for 30 years and had been terrible for at least 15 of them (I know this b/c my neighbors youngest son had her as an art teacher 15 years ago and the rumor was that they moved her to kindergarten so that she only had interaction with one class, as opposed to the entire school, since every class had her as an art teacher). The fact that petitions have been signed over the years, complaints lodged, etc. has had no impact b/c she has tenure. That really boils my blood. My little niece, who is a people pleaser, had her self esteem so damaged that she needed a therapist b/c she said that "she couldn't do anything right"....this sweet little 5 year old was depressed. Thank goodness, she had a great teacher last year and over the course of the year, her self esteem recovered somewhat, but the experience in kindergarten clearly had an impact on her personality.

So, while I would totally support the need for art, music, PE, I would say get rid of tenure, so that teachers who are at the top of the earning ceiling and are not effective can be let go and fresher/newer teachers brought in at the lower end of the pay scale. Yes, if they are good teachers, then they will continue to earn more each year, but surely eliminating tenure would provide additional funds for some of these other areas?

Yes, some teachers need to be removed, but I'm not sure eliminating tenure is the answer. The first thing our legislatures and top admins would do, is to begin looking for ways to trim the budget, and it won't matter much what they trim. This WILL happen. Heck, it's happening NOW, but they cover it up. And really, is the fat in the ranks of teachers, or in the top-heavy administrations, who's pay is MUCH more plush I might add. Who holds THEM to account? Themselves? How do we measure THEIR contribution to student achievement, hmm? How DO we measure the effectiveness of administrators? By higher administrators grading them? That's a back-scratching arrangement for sure.

Such a complex situation....

 

[yennyfire]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ksinger, I TOTALLY include administrators in my statement. I agree that many of them are out of touch, power hungry or simply don't care and need to be removed.