I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schools

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I very much appreciate the level of conversation here. After teaching for over 10 years and having absolutely unreasonable expectations put on me and my students...because I was a "good" teacher and therefore able to handle all sorts of things....larger classes, fewer supplies, more of a "spread" of ability in a single class, and a he** of a lot of pressure to get test scores higher than any other teacher in the school (long story) as well as teaching 12 different courses in 10 years (and seven different extra curriculars, lunch duty, and more and more meetings every year)...I see a few things that I would immediately point to.

(This is going to be disjointed...I'm typing on the fly here with a sick toddler next to me)

1. Our district went from having a central office with 7 administrators to having 20 administrators (all w/ 6 figure salaries) in my 10 years. Also, each *building* had more and more administrators (associate principals, specialists of all sorts who rarely seemed to work with kids) who called for more meetings and, ironically, more time away from teaching than anything I've ever seen..

I am NOT saying that administrators are in cushy positions, and lord love the good ones. I just saw too much redundancy, too much administrating from "on high" and more and more of the administrators forcing us to go to meeting after meeting with outside experts (paid handsomely, by the way) and using expensive outside programs (be they academic or otherwise) that never seemed to invigorate the system. I saw too many administrators trying to use the school as their own lab work for their advanced degrees. Most importantly, I saw too many GOOD administrators leave because they weren't heard by the throng of other administrators who never seemed to get their tushies into schools other than to run meetings. The good ones often had so many obstacles preventing them from doing their jobs well that it was almost comical. Almost.

The district became very reactive...if one school had an issue with, say, low math scores, the district would purchase very glitzy and pretty expensive programs for the whole district to use...a program that worked in Podunk, USA that *of course* would work with us. Except it never did. I always felt we were chasing after problems in one segment of our population or another, applying "solutions" to all the kids, then wondering why nothing ever worked.

2. (EDITED STUFF OUT)
We spent hundreds and thousands on PRETESTS. Three weeks a year, the kids were pulled out of classes to take practice tests to see how they would do on the standardized tests used for NCLB. Then we purchased more computer programs/cutesy prepackaged lesson plans to address whatever areas of the test showed student deficiencies. I could really have taught the kids much more effective and less expensive lessons if given a voice in the matter.

3. I recall from my education classes spending a lot of time talking about time on task -- how many minutes were spent on instruction every day/week/year? By the time I left teaching, I remember remarking that we'd had exactly 6 weeks out of a 40ish week school year that wasn't disrupted by Special schedules, vacations, assemblies, trips, pretesting (as described above), etc. Many assemblies a year, mostly about "character..." many extended homeroom sessions to "bond" with students and play...I'm not joking....Monopoly or other games. We started to focus on self-esteem but never seem to tie it to academics. We had THREE occasions a year where it was "faculty-student" basketball or soccer or volleyball games for which we cancelled two class periods at the end of the day. We had TWO "talent shows" for which we cancelled four classes. Back in the stone age when I was a student, I had talent shows and student-teacher whatever-ball games, but they were always after school.

I'm NOT saying that schools should be ONLY academics. I believe in advisory programs and talent shows and music. I saw our arts programs get minimalized and pushed outside the school day. I saw our music teacher fight constantly to get teachers to let kids out of class to take their lessons (and the other teachers didn't want kids to miss a film being shown in class, for heaven's sake). I saw student after student THRIVE due to special relationships with teachers that surpassed academics...but somehow we never seemed to make it all work at the same time. And add to this the kids who are pulled out of school more and more for other reasons...(Do you really need to leave school a week early to go on your winter vacation???) and problems arise that we try to solve by pouring good money after bad.

I am saying that I'm guessing we're asking teachers to cover the same (if not more) academic material in a year with more students, fewer resources, less consistency in school day, and more kids pulled out of class/school. It's tricky. I have to believe somehow there is a financial drain there as well. I'm too emotional about this to figure it out.

It's hard to stand up and say, "Hi. That new flashy program the school bought to help kids learn xyz is a waste of money," because xyz sounds so good and academically sound,even though it doesn't really do much in the bigger picture of the academic year.

It's hard to stand up and say, "Hi. That flashy new administrator brought in to support this academic program is a waste of money," because don't we want more and more experts to help our kids?

It's hard to stand up and say, as I did, "Hi! Thanks for asking me to be in these meetings about textbooks for the last year. I've reviewed the material. We do not need to spend a million dollars (no hyperbole) on this. Here's my suggestion for something better that costs a fraction of that." It was much harder to have that recommendation (that was backed by every single teacher in my subject in the district) ignored. We spent, as a district, $1M on books that largely went unused. But boy, were they pretty.

I'm not really helping here; I'm not really sure what's going to fix things.

I just know I cried a lot my last year because I was overworked, overmeetings, over classloaded, under funded, misunderstood. I had been hired for my expertise and ability. By the end of my run, the only voices trusted in my classroom were the voices of administrators and providers-of-programs. I also know that, if we are indeed judging by test scores, students in my school were doing worse than when I started, but we were spending a lot more money on them.

I left because it stopped being about learning and started being about containing and about chasing after problems with band-aids and about flash.

And because I couldn't do it. I had tenure, I had a great salary. I couldn't do it.

I'm so sorry! Honestly, that sounds like any evening discussion at our house, so I understand. And I suspect there are a gajillion just like it. It's so frustrating! I'm so sorry the system chewed you up.

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Great post Jas!

I know I'm going off the original question, but I want to ask you, Jas, a question. I assume the flashy programs you might be talking about are basal reading programs and kits, correct? I fought so hard against this in my school but I lost that battle. I went from using my knowledge and experience as a reading teacher/specalist using a balanced literacy framework (for elementary students) to using a basal reading program. I hated it but because I was piloting it for my grade level, I had to stick to it faithfully. Forget about using my own imagination to create reading lessons that I thought would be more meaningful. I had to have everyone read out of the same anthology (regardless of their ability, reading level). Sure, we also had leveled readers, but the stories were not ones chosen by my students. It was more of a "hey, you're below level. Let's give you a book you're not going to care about. Someone else (who has no idea who you are or what you're interested in) thinks you should read it." That's just one out of many, many examples I could give as to why I detest basals.

I've been away for a year and now I'm returning to this school. While it's a place I LOVE, I still don't like the idea of teaching "reading n a can." I was on the pilot committee, where I *thought* I had a say, but I didn't really. The materials had already been purchased for everyone to use last year. I'm not going to fight it anymore. What's the point? I will, however, continue to modiify as I see fit and go with what I KNOW to be great reading instruction. I'm not easily fooled by the cute characters on the anthology cover or the flashy package. What we SHOULD be given is not prepackaged programs, but more professional development in best practices. I really don't think "reading in a can" falls under "best practices" but what do I know? I'm just a trained educator with a masters in reading who has worked as a reading specialist in the past.

Phew!! I had some things to get off my chest, apparently! Sorry to ramble on so much and get even more off-topic. Continue on...

 

[Haven]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

I have to call shenanigans, here. I'm not writing this post to attack you, so please don't take it that way. My guess is that your friends either misrepresented their salaries to you, OR they earn extra money on top of their base salaries by working their behinds off as coaches, sponsors, teaching summer school, etc.

I feel compelled to respond to your post because misrepresentation of teacher salaries is a big problem, and there are very large groups of people who use inflated salary information against teachers on a regular basis. Our own state has a very aggressive anti-teacher group that publishes salaries in a searchable database, and I know from my own experience that those "salaries" are inflated.

I'm in the IL suburbs too, Laila, in the North Shore to be specific. I used to teach in one of the highest paid high schools in the state, in fact we had it in our contract that our salary schedule *had* to be one of the top five highest salary schedules in county. You can bet our negotiations team had to fight very long and hard for that particular stipulation.

ANYWAY, I find it very unlikely that your friends' BASE salaries are that high in even the highest paid high schools in this state. The earliest that you can earn 80K at my former HS (on their current ss) is with ten year's experience and a PhD or EdD. With only a master's, you'd need 14 years of experience. As for the $120,000 figure, please. The best salary schedules (in IL, at least) don't hit 100K until you're close to 20 years of experience.

This kind of misinformation is very bad for teachers, and I hate to see it being spread around. If your friends really are earning that much on their base salaries alone, then they must work in a very unique school, and one that I've never heard of. I have teacher friends who work in the most affluent areas of this state, and none of them have such a great salary schedule. NONE.

Teachers are not overpaid. We are overworked. This whole "teachers are overpaid" myth is so exhausting.

 

[Laila619]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Haven, they teach in Districts 211 and 214, which are some of the best in the state. They are coaches too though (cheerleading), and have Masters plus 60.

 

[panda08]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

If that salary information is true, super! I'd rather pay teachers than I-bankers six figure salaries any day of the week.

I don't know what to say about art being a waste of time except to each their own, but schools should still teach it. I want to foster creativity and imagination in children. I think art contributes to society and enriches us in immeasurable ways. All I know is that when I sat in the L'Orangerie museum in Paris admiring the murals of Monet's waterlillies, I thought they were something to behold and a tremendous gift to the world.

 

[Laila619]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

If that salary information is true, super! I'd rather pay teachers than I-bankers six figure salaries any day of the week.

I don't know what to say about art being a waste of time except to each their own, but schools should still teach it. I want to foster creativity and imagination in children.

You can do that through things like reading and creative writing though, which are IMO more useful than painting a still life. I think a lot of kids who aren't naturally artistically talented maybe don't get much out of it, and they usually can't get an A. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Haven]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Haven, they teach in Districts 211 and 214, which are some of the best in the state. They are coaches too though (cheerleading), and have Masters plus 60.

I know both districts well. I don't want to give away too much identifying information, but we must live near each other!

If your friends were making that kind of money, they would deserve EVERY SINGLE PENNY, if you ask me. I just don't want bad information out there so more people can say "Teachers are overpaid! 32 year olds are making 120K a year!"

If they coach, then they'll make good extra money doing that, and it is well deserved.

 

[panda08]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

If that salary information is true, super! I'd rather pay teachers than I-bankers six figure salaries any day of the week.

I don't know what to say about art being a waste of time except to each their own, but schools should still teach it. I want to foster creativity and imagination in children.

You can do that through things like reading and creative writing though, which are IMO more useful than painting a still life. I think a lot of kids who aren't naturally artistically talented maybe don't get much out of it, and they usually can't get an A. Again, just my opinion.

I understand what you're saying but education should not be about one size fitting all. Art is not just about painting a still life and can translate to many productive uses. How about those kids who grow up to be the animators of movies like Toy Story? Or fashion designers? Or architects?

Some kids may be artistically talented but never know it because they weren't exposed to it. And I don't see any problem with teaching art, even some kids don't get much out of it. You can say the same about a lot of things taught in school, like history or chemistry or sports. Under your rationale, if some kids are clumsy and will fail PE, PE should get cut.

 

[smitcompton]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Hi All, Im going to try again to post,

I am so happy to see you all post and read what you have to say. I can see that the first 2 posts set the stage for talking about teachers.
It is my contention that teachers are not the problem in the failure of our public schools. If you keep focusing on teachers we will not see the real problems(plural). They become the red herring. There will always be good teachers, excellent teachers and some bad teachers. Just like the rest of the worlds organizations. They do not create policy, and have very little power. They only have power thru unions. This is mostly for KSinger--When teachers strike, won't return to school, want more money, inconveniences parents to find alternate schools in churches and synogoes, public perceptions change. Before unions, teachers were so well regarded and paid very little. After unions, they were paid better, but less respected. This occurred in NY in the 1960s. Initially people supported them. But unions became less well thought of and you all know the rest.

I got all excited from reADING YOU ALL. I believe you first must see what the problems are , then perhaps talk about changes.
If we elimate the teachers from being the problem, we have to see whats left. Sometimes thats the way to find the problem.
Yes, I believe parents and the students are the problem with the school boards acting irresponsiiby and the administration lacking.
They are all afraid to make the necessary changes.

Jas-- that was one of the best critiques I have ever read on the system

K Singer. The disrespect you hate comes from parents and students who think they have rights no matter where they are. The root for all this is in the 60's. As much good as has came out of the 60's, some things went bananas. Schools are one causalty. Our kids another.
Teachers in my area hHaven do make 85,000 with a masters in a high school. I do not live in the best school district. Their salaries are published.

If I had 40 of you in a room for 2 months we could knock this problem on its arse. At least we could understand the problems and stop focusing on teachers.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

I hate to sound so harsh but that's rather egocentric of you to say that something that doesn't interest YOU is a waste of time for everyone else. Obviously those children who had a talent or knack, or even just bothered to pay attention and learn in the class found the class to have benefit and value. Maybe it was the only time in the day they experienced warm fuzzies to their self esteem.

I think some people just don't appreciate art in general.

 

[Laila619]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

I hate to sound so harsh but that's rather egocentric of you to say that something that doesn't interest YOU is a waste of time for everyone else.

I didn't say it was a waste of time for everyone else. I said I thought it was, because I remember a lot of kids in my art class slacking off. It's just an opinion. Regardless, something's gotta give because the current system isn't working. Unfortunately, art and/or music are usually the first things people think to cut, because we probably all agree they aren't as critical as math or English.

I also never said teachers in my state are overpaid...I said I know some who definitely are not underpaid. Not the same thing. I am proud that in our districts we pay our teachers what they deserve!

 

[phoenixgirl]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Well, it seems to me that the issue of how to pay for toilet paper is not as simple as cutting pensions. Would the cutting of pensions immediately lead to some bureaucrat saying, "Great! Get me the order form for the Charmin!"

I'll just throw some numbers out and facts out there for ya.

My first school provided two boxes of chalk, and that was it. So apparently I was either not supposed to write down what I was saying very much (in contradiction to the theory that some children are visual learners) or the assumption was that the job was BYOC. If teachers are supposed to provide the chalk, I don't see why kids can't provide the TP. Actually, I think both are ridiculous, but the latter is actually more of a "must-have" according to Maslow's hierarchy.

Last year, I made the equivalent to $65k in New York City according to a cost of living calculator. I was teaching all of the AP literature classes and running the school newspaper, in addition to other responsibilities and courses. So yeah, I was really raking in the big bucks and could totally keep that up for 30 years whilst simultaneously saving enough for my own retirement. I was also making only pay grade above a newly hired, 0 years experience teacher with the same schooling, which equaled less than a $1k difference. So much for nearly 10 years' experience mattering for anything.

My school ran out of desks a few years ago. The assistant principal in charge of buildings and grounds and the head of maintenance danced a delicate tango; one was trying to keep the unsafe desks out of use (the jagged edges where a metal support bar would often detach could, and did in my classroom, cut a student) while the other was trying to keep as many of them in use as possible to handle the never-ending requests for more desks in classroom XYZ. When I requested more desks last year, I was told that I should ask my department chair, whose $2k budget was meant for books and paper clips and lesson planners. So what did I do? I wrapped a whole bunch of packing tape (which I purchased) around the jagged edges and moved those desks to the back of the room where they'd be used the least.

Rather than dive into a whole argument over whether or not teachers are respected or how tax-payer dollars should be spent (though that could be an interesting topic -- should items like graphing calculators, or in this age, laptops, which have usually been the parents' responsibility be provided? What are students in private schools expected to purchase? Etc.), I'll just say that I believe that concerned citizens should get involved. It's easy to spit out a platform of cutting pensions or increasing societal respect, but on the local level, you'll see results when you get involved and ask why the school has run out of toilet paper. At my last school, there were fishes and loaves type miracles thanks to community support, and a couple of times the principal saved the day with a special discretionary fund. But if it was an item that teachers would buy or students would bring in, then the school wasn't going to spend that money because it didn't have to. I'd say fight the (toilet paper) battles as they come because those things really are important. Your child shouldn't have to bring it in, but your problem isn't solved just because your underpaid teacher goes to Sam's Club and buys it herself either.

Re the original assumption that cutting pensions would solve the problem, I'll just say that I don't think that's correct economics. We can't get highly qualified teachers for barely qualified teacher prices. The problem needs to be attacked locally on a case by case basis. Why was my district issuing each student a laptop but refusing a 40 year old high school's request for new desks? One segment on the local news and you know that problem would be solved . . .

 

[rainwood]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I want to thank all of the teachers and ex-teachers for sharing their experiences and frustrations. It is really eye-opening as well as sad what is happening in our schools. I applaud all of you for what is one of the most difficult jobs out there. The notion of the overpaid teacher is a myth as far as I can tell. Administrators overpaid? Yes, and far too many of them too.

It's also frustrating to hear that so much of the scarce resources goes into materials and programs that are doomed to fail. The marketing is clearly much better than the content, and that's a shame.

As for the art and music debate, a lot of research shows that music helps performance in other subjects, notably math. And music can teach kids self-discipline, something that will benefit students their entire lives. As for art, a life without art would be pretty dreary, school would be too. The beauty in art and music is something that people respond to on very basic levels. I'd hate to see generations of children grow up without knowing how much that matters.

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I'm home today with a wicked migraine, so I'm not quite up to writing a tome, but I thought I'd post this link for your reading pleasure. I may have linked this before, I can't recall, but it's worth posting again. I'm sure some of the teachers here are more than aware of all of the issues addressed in this paper, others maybe not so much. I pulled it off a link that was on some Oklahoma education website, the original location of which I have since lost.

Anyway, it addresses the non-school factors that affect academic success. I found it to be an eye-opener.

Poverty and Potential: Out-of-School Factors and School Success

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...&sig=AHIEtbQ6CbhzAfy3tpSR9RbcH1cEOQyjPg&pli=1

ETA: Not loving the way the urls are done. But it works. May have to go back and see if there's a better way. Oh well...

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Well, it seems to me that the issue of how to pay for toilet paper is not as simple as cutting pensions. Would the cutting of pensions immediately lead to some bureaucrat saying, "Great! Get me the order form for the Charmin!"

I'll just throw some numbers out and facts out there for ya.

My first school provided two boxes of chalk, and that was it. So apparently I was either not supposed to write down what I was saying very much (in contradiction to the theory that some children are visual learners) or the assumption was that the job was BYOC. If teachers are supposed to provide the chalk, I don't see why kids can't provide the TP. Actually, I think both are ridiculous, but the latter is actually more of a "must-have" according to Maslow's hierarchy.

Last year, I made the equivalent to $65k in New York City according to a cost of living calculator. I was teaching all of the AP literature classes and running the school newspaper, in addition to other responsibilities and courses. So yeah, I was really raking in the big bucks and could totally keep that up for 30 years whilst simultaneously saving enough for my own retirement. I was also making only pay grade above a newly hired, 0 years experience teacher with the same schooling, which equaled less than a $1k difference. So much for nearly 10 years' experience mattering for anything.

My school ran out of desks a few years ago. The assistant principal in charge of buildings and grounds and the head of maintenance danced a delicate tango; one was trying to keep the unsafe desks out of use (the jagged edges where a metal support bar would often detach could, and did in my classroom, cut a student) while the other was trying to keep as many of them in use as possible to handle the never-ending requests for more desks in classroom XYZ. When I requested more desks last year, I was told that I should ask my department chair, whose $2k budget was meant for books and paper clips and lesson planners. So what did I do? I wrapped a whole bunch of packing tape (which I purchased) around the jagged edges and moved those desks to the back of the room where they'd be used the least.

Rather than dive into a whole argument over whether or not teachers are respected or how tax-payer dollars should be spent (though that could be an interesting topic -- should items like graphing calculators, or in this age, laptops, which have usually been the parents' responsibility be provided? What are students in private schools expected to purchase? Etc.), I'll just say that I believe that concerned citizens should get involved. It's easy to spit out a platform of cutting pensions or increasing societal respect, but on the local level, you'll see results when you get involved and ask why the school has run out of toilet paper. At my last school, there were fishes and loaves type miracles thanks to community support, and a couple of times the principal saved the day with a special discretionary fund. But if it was an item that teachers would buy or students would bring in, then the school wasn't going to spend that money because it didn't have to. I'd say fight the (toilet paper) battles as they come because those things really are important. Your child shouldn't have to bring it in, but your problem isn't solved just because your underpaid teacher goes to Sam's Club and buys it herself either.

Re the original assumption that cutting pensions would solve the problem, I'll just say that I don't think that's correct economics. We can't get highly qualified teachers for barely qualified teacher prices. The problem needs to be attacked locally on a case by case basis. Why was my district issuing each student a laptop but refusing a 40 year old high school's request for new desks? One segment on the local news and you know that problem would be solved . . .

Because issuing computers is sexy and the admin can report that to the school board/legislators as "SEE how NOW we are? How much we CARE??" Who cares is the kids are bleeding out an artery from crap desks, hey man! they have COMPUTERS!! And computers are our salvation!" Desks and proper WIRING for those computers, maintenence of old buildings, and the daily stuff, well that's not sexy.

Yeah, I know: negative. Migraine doesn't help.

Latest: the kids will not be issued books this year due to budget constraints. One set of books PER room, for all students in that room. No taking books home. It will probably be 5-10 years before the district will buy books again. And since only about 40% of the kids in the district have internet connected computers at home, CDs and DVDs aren't much of an option, except as supplemental. So go ahead, get those scores up with NO BOOKS. Desks? Books? Eh...who needs 'em. Bunch 'a whiners, those teachers.

How long will it be before I report back that the teachers are told they're making too many copies, and denied access to the school copiers? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[jas]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

How long will it be before I report back that the teachers are told they're making too many copies, and denied access to the school copiers? Anyone? Anyone?

Not to only recognize this part of your post, but holy cow, did this take me back to pretty much every February I taught and the not-gentle threats from principals to cut back.

I worked briefly in a school that issued computers to each student and had wifi. I spent a lot of time making sure kids weren't playing internet games when they were supposed to be taking notes on their laptops.

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ksinger -- I worked at two schools last year. I began the year at school #1. The year prior (when I wasn't there), the principal showed up in each classroom and told the teacher that they'd be given an hour to pull together all the things they'd need to copy for the rest of the year, and then they wouldn't have access to the copier. This was in February. The following year, when I arrived, I was told that parents had been asked to send in two packages of copier paper. I felt so bad that the parents actually had to provide the paper for their child to use. And this was at a new school in a wealthy area of the city.

At school #2 (where I went a month or so after leaving school #1), I was told that at the beginning of the year, each teacher was given two boxes of copier paper. After Christmas, we were given one more box. That's all the paper we got, unless we asked parents to send it in or unless we wanted to bring it in ourselves.

 

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

We are in an affluent area and a great school district, and I spent about $60 on supplies for my son's kindergarten class this year. This included copy paper. On top of that, at parent's night there was a board to sign up to bring voluntary supplies for projects throughout the year.
Reading this thread as a former teacher is so sad to me that education budgets have been cut so severely. It also makes me rethink my plan for getting my master's and returning to the classroom....
I find it ironic and sad how many seemingly great teachers just on PS alone have moved on from the teaching field. Makes me think we are losing the great teachers in mass due to all the red tape/lack of respect/budget cuts/etc. Something needs to be done before there are no longer bright, energetic teachers with new ideas coming into the field .

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Went to hubs open house last night. It's the second year I've done this, and as always, it is instructive. The thing(s) that stood out for me were the sheer number of kids sporting infants on their hips, and the general signs of crushing poverty. And in spite of that, the kids are generally pretty sweet. The DH told me that the one kid, who looked pretty vacant and out of it (already missed 3 of 8 classes) was actually working to support his parents, who were alcoholics. I guess he had reason to look dazed, poor kid.

And in between the parents and kids, DH told me (since I hadn't read the local news) that there had been a shooting (not fatal thank goodness) of an Oklahoma City police officer by a kid in his class, who is now in custody.

Just a day in the life.....

ETA - and it was infuriating listening to the hubs have to explain to each parent that the school couldn't/wouldn't be issuing BOOKS this year. I'm just staggered still by this. How in heck are you supposed to be able to teach what needs to be taught without BOOKS? But he'll be a BAAAAD teacher if he can't have them all passing EOI tests. The world has truly gone insane....

 

[Nashville]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I'm not even going to get in depth with this, I'm just going to say thank heaven I had music/arts when I was in school. It inspired a lifetime of creative thinking. I'm forever grateful to my 4th grade music teacher "Mrs. Z" who one day pulled me aside after class and said "Have you ever taken a ballet lesson?" Waste of time? Not for me, and I was lucky enough to grow up in a household where museum and theater trips were as common as trips to the grocery store. I shudder when I think of all the children who might have all the potential in the world to do great things, and may never be given that initial spark.

Reminds me of a great quote from the movie Mr. Holland's Opus (which I plan to watch later this evening after reading this thread):

Vice Principal: I care about these kids just as much as you do. And if I'm forced to choose between Mozart and reading and writing and long division, I choose long division.

Glenn Holland: Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about.

 

[swimmer]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Maria, I know that a tenured teacher *can* be fired, but only for something bordering on illegal (hitting a student, molestation, etc.), not for simply being a poor teacher. I understand about job security, but there should be some way to weed out the bad teachers, even after they've received tenure.

I disagree. To clarify, I teach in MA where the unions are INCREDIBLY strong and a tenured teacher can be fired. I have seen it done with good cause several times, mostly to people who had decades of experience but then began to sharply decline. It takes 3 negative evaluations, this has been the case since the early 90s in MA. These can be for ineffective communication with parents, inappropriate attire, insubordination, the whole gamut. In fact, for teachers in their first three years of teaching they can be dismissed for nothing at all. Try that in the "real world!" A nice enough guy last year wasn't given tenure because the principal told him, "I can find someone better." Which is true, but not really something he did wrong at all.

In GA where the unions are non-existent, a decent administrator could have that teacher out within a few months if the principal/supt. got their acts together and documented offenses. Oh, and I'm on maternity leave otherwise I could only post when on bathroom duty while teaching HS. My 21 min lunch doesn't leave much time for fun stuff. My bottom line comment is that administrators must do more to ensure that we look at what is best for the students and hire/fire appropriately. Too many administrators in schools and in business rose to their positions because mediocrity gets by...and good old fashioned nepotism.

Oh and again, TAXPAYERS DO NOT PAY TEACHER PENSIONS! PENSIONS COME OUT OF OUR PALTRY PAYCHECKS! I have no choice but to pay 12% into my pension every year, G-d hope I live long enough to use .5 of that!

 

[smitcompton]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Hi All,

I am surprised that the issue of property taxes has not been mentioned. Of course, I only have knowledge of two states, New York and Illinois. The disparity in the two vivid examples given by Jas and Phenix are in part caused by the property tax system. In Illinois there was some effort made to redistribute the property tax but as far as I remember it did not go over in the richest school districts.
So there is unequal money distribution in schools. The higher the property tax the more the local schools get. It leaves schols in low income areas at a hugh disadvantage.

While I don't think your husband should be the one to do this, he has enough to do, I would find someone to at least talk to the ACLU. This is unequal education in its worst form. We will not ever be able to help all disadvantaged children, but no books, no desks is beyond civilized.

Our religious institutions have failed. They are supposed to be there in times of trouble. I think they left the scene. They have let government to it all, and it can't or wont.

Our township provide backpacks, school supplies, and tons of stuff for parents and children. If books were needed in my area, they would have them. I want to help students that need it, but I want thugs and violent kids-- out out out.

It's hard to believe what has become of public education. I'm quite embarrassed.

While teachers pay here is good,no new teacher can get a job in my district unless as a sub. Even a gal with a masters couldn't get one.

Enough for me. sorry for the mess.
Annette

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Hi All,

I am surprised that the issue of property taxes has not been mentioned. Of course, I only have knowledge of two states, New York and Illinois. The disparity in the two vivid examples given by Jas and Phenix are in part caused by the property tax system. In Illinois there was some effort made to redistribute the property tax but as far as I remember it did not go over in the richest school districts.
So there is unequal money distribution in schools. The higher the property tax the more the local schools get. It leaves schols in low income areas at a hugh disadvantage.

While I don't think your husband should be the one to do this, he has enough to do, I would find someone to at least talk to the ACLU. This is unequal education in its worst form. We will not ever be able to help all disadvantaged children, but no books, no desks is beyond civilized.

Our religious institutions have failed. They are supposed to be there in times of trouble. I think they left the scene. They have let government to it all, and it can't or wont.

Our township provide backpacks, school supplies, and tons of stuff for parents and children. If books were needed in my area, they would have them. I want to help students that need it, but I want thugs and violent kids-- out out out.

It's hard to believe what has become of public education. I'm quite embarrassed.

While teachers pay here is good,no new teacher can get a job in my district unless as a sub. Even a gal with a masters couldn't get one.

Enough for me. sorry for the mess.
Annette

They have desks, but just no books being issued this year. There is a classroom set that they can use IN the classroom but that's it.

And this is a serious question, what do they/we DO with the under 18 (under 10?) thugs/violent kids? How do we deal with them once they've been booted out to ...wherever we boot them?

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ah, Swimmer, thank you for mentioning the pension/paycheck thing. I kept meaning to but then I forgot.