I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schools

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

Just FYI as a former Kindergarten teacher, I kind of take offense at saying you are paying teacher's salaries for nap time. Well, we only had about a 15 minute rest time for the first few weeks of school and I can assure you I was never sitting on my bum. I was using that time to write parent's notes, get homework graded/ready to go out for the day, preparing plans for the next day, etc. There was actually NEVER a time in the 9 hours I worked a day to sit on my bum, even lunchtime was monitored by the teachers. I do agree with you about the tests though. It is too much pressure for these little ones. I worked at a private school, so I didn't have to go through as much red tape, but my son is in public K now and I can see how it is affecting the workload. It's too much for these little ones...we have some sort of homework every night.

I'm tellin' ya, it's a Madonna/Whore complex. Big time.

HouseCat, do you honestly think your child's kindergarten teacher sets policy? Secures funding? WANTS their kids to be tested to death? I don't know ANY teacher who thinks the testing environment as it exists now, is a good thing. They think it SUCKS. For the kids and for them. But they aren't paying their own meager salaries. They do what the admin and society demands they do. And for every parent like you who thinks it's too much, there is another parent on the other side of the table. And the school must try to satisfy ALL of you, while adhering to federal mandate, and obtaining funding and.....

Believe me, "these people" DO look at their education practices, but they aren't calling the shots. Your child's teacher is just trying to get through the day. For god's sake, let them HAVE that 15 minutes to rest and get some other stuff done. What's so wrong with giving a person a break? Every job I've ever worked on gave ME paid breaks. Jeez, why do we act like teachers are some other species, or out to take us to the cleaners?

Seriously, teachers are not super-human! Probably TMI, but I know of several teachers that suffer from chronic UTIs due to not even having time to go to the restroom some days. I know in our school system, Kindergarten teachers have to share assistants and they may come in to help for 20 minutes a day or something. They rely heavily on parent volunteers and luckily, our school is full of willing parents. I hate to think about the poor teachers in schools where parent involvement is zip.

 

[Maria D]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

yennyfire, I agree with almost everything you wrote -- especially the part about getting rid of poor teachers. Where I disagree is that tenure provides iron-clad job security. It does not. New teachers are on probation for the first few years (varies by district) at which time they can be terminated without cause. After getting tenure they CAN be fired but it must be with cause. If the teacher didn't do something patently illegal like molest her student it can be hard to document "mal-practice" but it can and should be done. For every bad teacher out there, there's an even worse administrator not doing her job, in my opinion. I do find that, in my district anyway, the union makes it harder than it should be.

I don't think that House Cat is necessarily referring to the teachers themselves as "these people" who don't review their practices. It sounds to me like she thinks full-day K is a waste of money (because the kids don't need and can't tolerate a full day) and would like to see half-day K. It's not up to the teachers to decide the length of the day, but the school board could decide to have half-day K and eliminate half the K teachers in the district, saving money and sparing kids the frustration. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with THAT, just trying to say how I read HC's post -- I don't think she meant offense.

Ksinger, I've been thinking about what you said about dilettantes taking up teaching on their way to something else. I was assuming you meant programs like "Teach for America" but then I started thinking of myself. I'm certainly not a dilettante and plan to to do this until I retire but it's my 3rd career. I did not have all the necessary training when I started and I certainly wouldn't have considered being a teacher if I didn't have a husband with a decent job that prevents me from having to support myself and my daughter on my own!

 

[yennyfire]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Maria, I know that a tenured teacher *can* be fired, but only for something bordering on illegal (hitting a student, molestation, etc.), not for simply being a poor teacher. I understand about job security, but there should be some way to weed out the bad teachers, even after they've received tenure.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

So in my little utopian dream world where teachers are making $140k and everyone is scrambling and competing for these spots so much that the cream of the crop is always teaching our children, I'd like to have some schools that tailor to different learning styles, like kinetic learners etc. Schools that say, EMBRACE ADHD and use the unique talents those children have to an advantage rather than setting them up to fail because they cannot conform properly.

So - how do we make this happen? National? State? I know it's way further back than district.

 

[House Cat]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

Just FYI as a former Kindergarten teacher, I kind of take offense at saying you are paying teacher's salaries for nap time. Well, we only had about a 15 minute rest time for the first few weeks of school and I can assure you I was never sitting on my bum. I was using that time to write parent's notes, get homework graded/ready to go out for the day, preparing plans for the next day, etc. There was actually NEVER a time in the 9 hours I worked a day to sit on my bum, even lunchtime was monitored by the teachers. I do agree with you about the tests though. It is too much pressure for these little ones. I worked at a private school, so I didn't have to go through as much red tape, but my son is in public K now and I can see how it is affecting the workload. It's too much for these little ones...we have some sort of homework every night.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend. I wasn't implying that teachers were just sitting around and eating bonbons, or rather, I didn't mean to imply that. Please accept my apology.

 

[House Cat]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

Just FYI as a former Kindergarten teacher, I kind of take offense at saying you are paying teacher's salaries for nap time. Well, we only had about a 15 minute rest time for the first few weeks of school and I can assure you I was never sitting on my bum. I was using that time to write parent's notes, get homework graded/ready to go out for the day, preparing plans for the next day, etc. There was actually NEVER a time in the 9 hours I worked a day to sit on my bum, even lunchtime was monitored by the teachers. I do agree with you about the tests though. It is too much pressure for these little ones. I worked at a private school, so I didn't have to go through as much red tape, but my son is in public K now and I can see how it is affecting the workload. It's too much for these little ones...we have some sort of homework every night.

I'm tellin' ya, it's a Madonna/Whore complex. Big time.

HouseCat, do you honestly think your child's kindergarten teacher sets policy? Secures funding? WANTS their kids to be tested to death? I don't know ANY teacher who thinks the testing environment as it exists now, is a good thing. They think it SUCKS. For the kids and for them. But they aren't paying their own meager salaries. They do what the admin and society demands they do. And for every parent like you who thinks it's too much, there is another parent on the other side of the table. And the school must try to satisfy ALL of you, while adhering to federal mandate, and obtaining funding and.....

Believe me, "these people" DO look at their education practices, but they aren't calling the shots. Your child's teacher is just trying to get through the day. For god's sake, let them HAVE that 15 minutes to rest and get some other stuff done. What's so wrong with giving a person a break? Every job I've ever worked on gave ME paid breaks. Jeez, why do we act like teachers are some other species, or out to take us to the cleaners?

Wow, where did I say the teachers are creating policy?

We were discussing funding and where we would like to see overspending cut. I spoke of where I saw a leak...full day kindergarten. I NEVER said that teachers instated this policy, nor did I say they agreed with it.

Please, don't put words in my mouth.

 

[atroop711]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

WOW-where do you work? I am a "city employee" and I pay the same tax rate as everyone else and I certainly don't make twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living-AND I also pay a large portion of my health insurance and pension. You should not generalize because it is not true for all.

Perhaps you need to see a breakdown of where the money is being spent. One VERY large portion of a school's budgets-larger than teacher salaries and pensions are paid to lawyers. Shocking but true!

Kasey I agree. I live in NYC and as a young adult I worked for the city. With what they paid me, I barely could live on my own, in fact I needed a roommate. My tax rate was the same as my roommate (she worked for a private firm), I paid a lot into my pension and health insurance. I was def. working poor when I was working for the city. NOW our city could def. stop giving the heads of city departments HUGE budgets yrly. My director had an annual budget. If she wanted to get the same or more the following yr, she was always scrambling to spend the budget no matter how she did it. She ordered ridiculously expensive leather furniture for her office, for the offices of the attorneys in our dept (we handled contracts). Guess what I sat on ( just a simple case worker), very old desk that was older than me AND old chair that the cushion was popping out of through the rips. Now if they did away with waste like this, we would find we have money for really important things

 

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

No problem, Housecat. I just didn't want people to think teachers were just sitting around during naptime, they always have something to do!

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I'll return later with more thoughts. I've been teaching elementary school for 10 years, and I strongly disagree that all non-academic areas be cut. Art, music, gym, and other programs are always first in people's minds when it comes to budget cuts, but they're SO IMPORTANT to building a well-runded individual. I've had many students shine in art class, and it was the one place where they didn't struggle. They felt safe and they could feel free to express themselves in a way that made them feel proud of their accomplishments. The arts are often an outlet for kids, and I support them 100%.

 

[steph72276]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I'll return later with more thoughts. I've been teaching elementary school for 10 years, and I strongly disagree that all non-academic areas be cut. Art, music, gym, and other programs are always first in people's minds when it comes to budget cuts, but they're SO IMPORTANT to building a well-runded individual. I've had many students shine in art class, and it was the one place where they didn't struggle. They felt safe and they could feel free to express themselves in a way that made them feel proud of their accomplishments. The arts are often an outlet for kids, and I support them 100%.

Ditto Zoe!

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

If it's okay, I'd probably take a slightly different tack.

One of the issues about schools I've been interested in is all the teachers and ex-teachers we have on PS who find their jobs frustrating, sometimes to the point of leaving the school or profession. Because you have an insider's view, what would you teachers and ex-teachers do to change the education system in the U.S., either from the perspective of the school(s) you've taught in or from a national perspective?

This really is something I'm interested in knowing and no one knows better than a teacher what is wrong with how we do things now and what might be improved.

Okay, I have time to post one more thing. I'm just beginning reading this thread and I know I'll probably chime in again, but I wanted to answer your question quickly. Education initiatives often come and go in waves, but NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is one that has stayed and in my opinion, it's made a lot of teachers miserable. I firmly believe it's important to hold teachers accountable for making sure they're doing the best job they can possibly do to educate children.

I also firmly believe that in too many cases, teachers aren't trusted to do what they see as most beneficial. The federal government comes down hard on school districts, and administrators come down hard on teachers. More and more is expected, often with fewer resources given to us. If a district doesn't do well, the federal government begins to take away resources and it doesn't support that district anymore. That's a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

Teachers need to be trained and given many opportunities to attend professional development workshops. They need to be given the freedom to use their (our) knowledge and training how they see fit, while followiing the curriculum and state standards, of course.

 

[atroop711]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I'll return later with more thoughts. I've been teaching elementary school for 10 years, and I strongly disagree that all non-academic areas be cut. Art, music, gym, and other programs are always first in people's minds when it comes to budget cuts, but they're SO IMPORTANT to building a well-runded individual. I've had many students shine in art class, and it was the one place where they didn't struggle. They felt safe and they could feel free to express themselves in a way that made them feel proud of their accomplishments. The arts are often an outlet for kids, and I support them 100%.

well said. I agree. These classes should NOT be cut

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

Just FYI as a former Kindergarten teacher, I kind of take offense at saying you are paying teacher's salaries for nap time. Well, we only had about a 15 minute rest time for the first few weeks of school and I can assure you I was never sitting on my bum. I was using that time to write parent's notes, get homework graded/ready to go out for the day, preparing plans for the next day, etc. There was actually NEVER a time in the 9 hours I worked a day to sit on my bum, even lunchtime was monitored by the teachers. I do agree with you about the tests though. It is too much pressure for these little ones. I worked at a private school, so I didn't have to go through as much red tape, but my son is in public K now and I can see how it is affecting the workload. It's too much for these little ones...we have some sort of homework every night.

I'm tellin' ya, it's a Madonna/Whore complex. Big time.

HouseCat, do you honestly think your child's kindergarten teacher sets policy? Secures funding? WANTS their kids to be tested to death? I don't know ANY teacher who thinks the testing environment as it exists now, is a good thing. They think it SUCKS. For the kids and for them. But they aren't paying their own meager salaries. They do what the admin and society demands they do. And for every parent like you who thinks it's too much, there is another parent on the other side of the table. And the school must try to satisfy ALL of you, while adhering to federal mandate, and obtaining funding and.....

Believe me, "these people" DO look at their education practices, but they aren't calling the shots. Your child's teacher is just trying to get through the day. For god's sake, let them HAVE that 15 minutes to rest and get some other stuff done. What's so wrong with giving a person a break? Every job I've ever worked on gave ME paid breaks. Jeez, why do we act like teachers are some other species, or out to take us to the cleaners?

Wow, where did I say the teachers are creating policy?

We were discussing funding and where we would like to see overspending cut. I spoke of where I saw a leak...full day kindergarten. I NEVER said that teachers instated this policy, nor did I say they agreed with it.

Please, don't put words in my mouth.

HouseCat please forgive me. Frustration abounds on all sides of this issue. I get wound up by what I see as the schizophrenic way we view teachers and education.
The schools are held hostage by the TESTS, which are NOT about the kids or real education, and never have been, and we're finally starting (I hope) to see the massive stupidity of them. I challenge anyone though, to not begin to bow to the pressures and teach to those things, even when it is clearly not in the interests of a truly educated populace. I do think though, that it is unfair of you to begrudge a kindergarten teacher a 15 minute break. How is that going to solve anything for anyone?

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I'll return later with more thoughts. I've been teaching elementary school for 10 years, and I strongly disagree that all non-academic areas be cut. Art, music, gym, and other programs are always first in people's minds when it comes to budget cuts, but they're SO IMPORTANT to building a well-runded individual. I've had many students shine in art class, and it was the one place where they didn't struggle. They felt safe and they could feel free to express themselves in a way that made them feel proud of their accomplishments. The arts are often an outlet for kids, and I support them 100%.

well said. I agree. These classes should NOT be cut

agree 100%

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

My youngest started kindergarten this year, full day kindergarten, mind you, and before the school year even began, I received two lists in the mail. The first list was supplies each student would need. The second list was for classroom supplies. After buying everything on each of these lists, I spent over $200.

First thing I would cut? The full day kindergarten. I would prefer that my son only go for half a day. I don't have that option in my school district. A full day is far too long for these little guys. You wouldn't believe how many of them are crying by the end of the day. They give them a nap time, btw...so we're paying 4 kindergarten teacher's salaries for nap time.

Here's the problem though, lately we've put so much into STAR testing and school ratings and how they tie into funding that it has literally trickled down to the lowest grade possible, kindergarten. Now, we've piled so much work onto the kindergartener that a half day isn't long enough to cram in all of the subject matter they need to learn in order to test well. There have been complaints that kindergarten lacked a proper amount of playtime and statistics showed that kindergarten expulsions were up 300%. So, what do we do? We don't review our practices in education and maybe let up on the poor little kids, no, we give them a longer day! This is so sad to me. I know in 5 years, they will probably review this practice and change it. Unfortunately, my son is in school now.

Well, there's my rant.

I don't believe these people truly look at their education practices and try to radically change anything. This is why our system is failing. Cut teacher pensions? I don't agree with that. But I believe real change is needed for the entire system if they really want to change the end product.

House Cat -- I know the little guys are tired by the end of the day, but I truly believe in full day Kindergarten (and the kids do get used to the schedule). My state does half day, but our Kindergarten teacher has gotten permission to arrange her week so that each of her students attends two full days and one half day per week. It works, and she is able to get so much more accomplished with her students. So much gets done, from learning routines to learning more academic skills, and I think it's really important to give Kindergartners as much exposure as possible. Otherwise, they're in for a SHOCK when they get to first grade. I taught in the south for a year, and full day Kindergarten is the norm. I loved it.

I completely agree with you about not wanting teachers' pensions to be cut. That's ridiculous.

 

[TooPatient]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I was in music and horticulture classes in high school. Funding for music was a joke. And, of course, the sports teams had the greates equipment, new uniforms, etc. (They just built a new stadium too -- saw it the last time I was in town)

Horticulture had the GREATEST idea -- we funded ourselves. The horticulture classes made wreaths, centerpieces, bouquets, corsages/bouttineers, and grew plants to SELL. We had a plant sale every year that made much of what was needed to operate the next year. Poinsettias, wreaths, Valentine's Day flowers, corsages for prom, and Halloween decorations covered most of the rest. We learned a lot about horticulture and gained great experience while we were doing it. Plus we had FUN.

The music department did something like that too. The Jazz Ensemble & auditioned choir (marching band on occasion too) performed at events (formal holiday party, office building opening celebration, etc) to cover some expenses.


I know it probably wouldn't fix everything, but if some programs were able to do stuff like this, it would be a start.
The sports teams (since they usually charge for admission anyway) should be able to fund a large chunk of their expenses as well. Not only would this help with the budget problems, this sort of thing gives students the opportunity to learn about business. (make a product or offer a service that people want to pay for, track expenses & earnings, etc)

 

[asscherisme]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I think schools should cut all non academic programs including music, art, gym, drama, and sports. The schools around here are always crying poor but yet seem to have all the state of the art sports equipment and stadiums. Why isn't that money being put towards the things that count?

Cities that are bankrupt need to stop paying their workers wages that are nearly twice the amount necessary to earn a decent living for the area and they need to stop paying into the pensions. Working for a bankruptcy attorney I see people from all walks of life and I am always shocked to see how much city works make. And how little they pay in taxes compared to others. But yet they get their pension and health insurance paid by taxpayers.

For the U.S. I think that all people receiving any type of government benefit should be required to take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests and that Social Security should be privitized. I'm in my late 20's and paid into SS my entire working life and will never see a dime of that money. Again, I see so many people come through my office that receive government benefits and complain that they can't afford their electric bill, but yet they always have their beer and cigarettes. What?! Since when were beer and cigaretts necessities?

I have to disagree. These programs are ESSENTIAL for children, especially in the inner city, poorer schools. This might be the only exposure they get to culture and exercise... While I do agree that perhaps schools don't need brand new football fields or new equipment, but I think it is a travesty to take away exposure to art, music, and physical activity. (This country has an epidemic of childhood obesity which causes a host of serious health problems....)

I agree 100% these programs are essential. I would guess that most people that think they should be taken away do not have children in public schools. I also thinkthey enhance learning and that taking these programs away would be harmful to children. Physical education for example has been shown over and over again to enhance how the brain learns.

Also, my kids have been required for years to bring in the following with their school supplies: several boxes of tissues, 2 bottles of hand sanatizer, 2 bottles of pump soap, several rolls of papertowels. Teachers need these supplies for the classroom and the school's don't provide them. If parents did not send them in, teachers would do without of have to buy them with their own money. I would not want a classroom to be without tisses, or soap, etc, especially as cold and flu season approach so I send them in of course. Toilet paper, thats a new one but as strange as I think that would be, if schools are not providing it, its certainly something kids and staff need and I would send it in too if need be.

I am so grateful for teachers and other school staff that devote themselves to education and think that with the budget cut, it puts more strainon teachers resources having to do without or reach into their own wallet. I find that as each year passes, there seem to be more classroom commnity type supplies requested in addition to what my indvidual kids need.

 

[smitcompton]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Hi All,

I just spent a lot of time posting a response. I don't know where it went. I am too pissed and I don't have time to reconstruct it so know that I read your posts and replied with what I thought was a good reply. This is the 4th time this has happened.

Sorry,
Annette

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Hi All,

I just spent a lot of time posting a response. I don't know where it went. I am too pissed and I don't have time to reconstruct it so know that I read your posts and replied with what I thought was a good reply. This is the 4th time this has happened.

Sorry,
Annette

Hey, SC, I just want to say, because I know how I can come across, that I DON'T think you hate teachers. Quite the contrary. I've read and responded to some of your posts in the past. I just see this bifurcated attitude in just about everyone. It rears its head in ME from time to time. I will elaborate, but right now I must run. Please know I was not trying to make you feel bad!

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

SC/Annette - Did you check to see if the posts are saving by accident?

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ksinger -- thanks so much for supporting teachers as much as you do. I think that a lot of people who don't work in this profession (or who don't have SOs who do) just don't understand. This is the only profession I know about where we can't negotiate salary and/or ask for raises. Well, many schools have a negotiations committee who volunteer their time after school and evenings to work on that, but for the most part, we follow a strict pay scale. If we think we're doing a great job and are improving student learning, can we ask for a raise? Not really. We're paid what the district or state sets for us, and we don't get much of a say in the matter.

I'm still making my way through the thread, so I haven't read it all yet, but I know someone's probably going to mention the amount of time off that teachers get. Why should teachers get X salary when they don't work a full year, AND they get weeks and days off throughout the school year as well? I know we get a lot of time off and I can't complain about that at all. I don't know a single teacher who truly takes off all that time though. While we may not be working with students during school vacation weeks or summer break, we are planning, going to workshops, and getting prepared for when we do see kids again. There's a lot that goes into teaching effectively, and many preople not in this profession don't see that. I don't mean for it to sound like we should be put on a pedestal or anything, but we should be treated as the professionals that we are.

 

[Laila619]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I live in IL in a suburb, and teachers here are certainly not underpaid!

My DH and I are friends with two couples, and both the husbands and the wives are high school teachers. All four of them each make between $84,000 to $120,000. And no one is older than 32.

Regarding cutting out art, music, and gym: well, honestly, I think art is a waste of time. Music and gym have some benefit and value, but art? I remember it being a time to goof off and only the kids who could draw well were the teacher's pets.

 

[risingsun]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I wrote a long post last night. It's disappeared I shows up in "my posts" icon on my avi. I don't get it.

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I wrote a long post last night. It's disappeared I shows up in "my posts" icon on my avi. I don't get it.

Next time, press "control" and "s" just before hitting "submit." I've lost posts too but saving them before sending them helps a lot.

 

[TooPatient]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ksinger -- thanks so much for supporting teachers as much as you do. I think that a lot of people who don't work in this profession (or who don't have SOs who do) just don't understand. This is the only profession I know about where we can't negotiate salary and/or ask for raises. Well, many schools have a negotiations committee who volunteer their time after school and evenings to work on that, but for the most part, we follow a strict pay scale. If we think we're doing a great job and are improving student learning, can we ask for a raise? Not really. We're paid what the district or state sets for us, and we don't get much of a say in the matter.

I'm still making my way through the thread, so I haven't read it all yet, but I know someone's probably going to mention the amount of time off that teachers get. Why should teachers get X salary when they don't work a full year, AND they get weeks and days off throughout the school year as well? I know we get a lot of time off and I can't complain about that at all. I don't know a single teacher who truly takes off all that time though. While we may not be working with students during school vacation weeks or summer break, we are planning, going to workshops, and getting prepared for when we do see kids again. There's a lot that goes into teaching effectively, and many preople not in this profession don't see that. I don't mean for it to sound like we should be put on a pedestal or anything, but we should be treated as the professionals that we are.

Zoe --
My aunt is a teacher (K and 1st grade -- she gets them in K and teaches them through 1st then starts again with a new group) and I remember spending a lot of time with her when I was younger.
She went to school to expand her education, the workshops you mentioned, planning lessons during breaks/summers, buying supplies with her own money, and so much more.

There are really good teachers out there who deserve everything they make and more. Unfortunately there are also some who use pre-packaged lessons, turn on movies rather than teach (I personally sat through a history and literature class like this), and more. These teachers really do have a LOT of free time to do their own hobbies and are making plenty (and in some districts too much).

From what I have seen and heard (good friend on school board, family employed by school district, teachers in my family & family friends) the problem is in the way the system is organized. The outstanding teachers deserve more, the teachers who use class time to catch up on their reading deserve less (relative to the good teachers). Pay should be performance based rather than seniority based.
Little stuff adds up too (full staff of custodians on campus during class hours -- often sitting in their office watching TV because they can't clean while the students are in the rooms --- why not have one (or whatever is required based on school size) on campus to clean up the emergency messes (bathroom problems, sick kids, etc) and the rest start AFTER school hours when they can get into the rooms?)


You (teachers) have a challenging and important job. You certainly deserve our respect and appreciation.

 

[panda08]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ditto to everything Yenny said, especially the part about tenure. I'm not here to rag on teachers and have nothing but the utmost respect for them. I'm married to a 4th grade teacher and am friends with teachers. All of them tell me that tenure is not necessary. I'd love to hear why it is. I would love to see teachers get paid as all other professional get paid and the tenure system get scrapped. I'm a government professional and I'm an at-will employee. Lots of other of professionals are at-will. I'm not sure why K-12 teachers should be different.

 

[partgypsy]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I know that I'm biased because my mom is a teacher (community college). People complain about pensions, but the college she worked at went from 75% fulltime and 25% part time to now 25% are full time and 75% are part time. They also cut support staff. Ironically the number of full-time administrators didn't seem to decrease...If you teach above a certain amount you can contribute to your pension. However - this is the punchline - whatever money you get from your pension the amount you receive from social security is decreased by that same amount. She is eligible for social security from both non-teaching jobs she's had, and from her husband's social security, but it's decreased to 550 a month because of her pension.

How would that make you feel, paying into social security but being non-eligible because you have a teacher's pension? Not good.

(she lives in IL)

 

[zoebartlett]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Thanks TooPatient! I agree with most of what you wrote, except the part about performance-based pay. I actually began a thread about that here a while back because the district I worked for at the time was headed that way and I hated the idea. I ended up only working in that district for a short time before moving onto a district that was much more supportive. I was curious to hear what others thought about the subject, which is why I brought it up here.

I disagree with performance-based pay because while we do the best job we can giving students the tools to learn, we can't make them do well on standardized tests. We can't take the test for them. There are so many reasons that certain kids might not do well on those types of tests, and to base teachers' pay on how well their students perform on them is ridiculous to me. I understand that some testing is needed, and I actually like assessing my students, but I don't like the idea that it might someday be linked to my salary.

 

[jas]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

I very much appreciate the level of conversation here. After teaching for over 10 years and having absolutely unreasonable expectations put on me and my students...because I was a "good" teacher and therefore able to handle all sorts of things....larger classes, fewer supplies, more of a "spread" of ability in a single class, and a he** of a lot of pressure to get test scores higher than any other teacher in the school (long story) as well as teaching 12 different courses in 10 years (and seven different extra curriculars, lunch duty, and more and more meetings every year)...I see a few things that I would immediately point to.

(This is going to be disjointed...I'm typing on the fly here with a sick toddler next to me)

1. Our district went from having a central office with 7 administrators to having 20 administrators (all w/ 6 figure salaries) in my 10 years. Also, each *building* had more and more administrators (associate principals, specialists of all sorts who rarely seemed to work with kids) who called for more meetings and, ironically, more time away from teaching than anything I've ever seen..

I am NOT saying that administrators are in cushy positions, and lord love the good ones. I just saw too much redundancy, too much administrating from "on high" and more and more of the administrators forcing us to go to meeting after meeting with outside experts (paid handsomely, by the way) and using expensive outside programs (be they academic or otherwise) that never seemed to invigorate the system. I saw too many administrators trying to use the school as their own lab work for their advanced degrees. Most importantly, I saw too many GOOD administrators leave because they weren't heard by the throng of other administrators who never seemed to get their tushies into schools other than to run meetings. The good ones often had so many obstacles preventing them from doing their jobs well that it was almost comical. Almost.

The district became very reactive...if one school had an issue with, say, low math scores, the district would purchase very glitzy and pretty expensive programs for the whole district to use...a program that worked in Podunk, USA that *of course* would work with us. Except it never did. I always felt we were chasing after problems in one segment of our population or another, applying "solutions" to all the kids, then wondering why nothing ever worked.

2. (EDITED STUFF OUT)
We spent hundreds and thousands on PRETESTS. Three weeks a year, the kids were pulled out of classes to take practice tests to see how they would do on the standardized tests used for NCLB. Then we purchased more computer programs/cutesy prepackaged lesson plans to address whatever areas of the test showed student deficiencies. I could really have taught the kids much more effective and less expensive lessons if given a voice in the matter.

3. I recall from my education classes spending a lot of time talking about time on task -- how many minutes were spent on instruction every day/week/year? By the time I left teaching, I remember remarking that we'd had exactly 6 weeks out of a 40ish week school year that wasn't disrupted by Special schedules, vacations, assemblies, trips, pretesting (as described above), etc. Many assemblies a year, mostly about "character..." many extended homeroom sessions to "bond" with students and play...I'm not joking....Monopoly or other games. We started to focus on self-esteem but never seem to tie it to academics. We had THREE occasions a year where it was "faculty-student" basketball or soccer or volleyball games for which we cancelled two class periods at the end of the day. We had TWO "talent shows" for which we cancelled four classes. Back in the stone age when I was a student, I had talent shows and student-teacher whatever-ball games, but they were always after school.

I'm NOT saying that schools should be ONLY academics. I believe in advisory programs and talent shows and music. I saw our arts programs get minimalized and pushed outside the school day. I saw our music teacher fight constantly to get teachers to let kids out of class to take their lessons (and the other teachers didn't want kids to miss a film being shown in class, for heaven's sake). I saw student after student THRIVE due to special relationships with teachers that surpassed academics...but somehow we never seemed to make it all work at the same time. And add to this the kids who are pulled out of school more and more for other reasons...(Do you really need to leave school a week early to go on your winter vacation???) and problems arise that we try to solve by pouring good money after bad.

I am saying that I'm guessing we're asking teachers to cover the same (if not more) academic material in a year with more students, fewer resources, less consistency in school day, and more kids pulled out of class/school. It's tricky. I have to believe somehow there is a financial drain there as well. I'm too emotional about this to figure it out.

It's hard to stand up and say, "Hi. That new flashy program the school bought to help kids learn xyz is a waste of money," because xyz sounds so good and academically sound,even though it doesn't really do much in the bigger picture of the academic year.

It's hard to stand up and say, "Hi. That flashy new administrator brought in to support this academic program is a waste of money," because don't we want more and more experts to help our kids?

It's hard to stand up and say, as I did, "Hi! Thanks for asking me to be in these meetings about textbooks for the last year. I've reviewed the material. We do not need to spend a million dollars (no hyperbole) on this. Here's my suggestion for something better that costs a fraction of that." It was much harder to have that recommendation (that was backed by every single teacher in my subject in the district) ignored. We spent, as a district, $1M on books that largely went unused. But boy, were they pretty.

I'm not really helping here; I'm not really sure what's going to fix things.

I just know I cried a lot my last year because I was overworked, overmeetings, over classloaded, under funded, misunderstood. I had been hired for my expertise and ability. By the end of my run, the only voices trusted in my classroom were the voices of administrators and providers-of-programs. I also know that, if we are indeed judging by test scores, students in my school were doing worse than when I started, but we were spending a lot more money on them.

I left because it stopped being about learning and started being about containing and about chasing after problems with band-aids and about flash.

And because I couldn't do it. I had tenure, I had a great salary. I couldn't do it.

 

[ksinger]

Re: I accept Saras challenge andm want to discuss that schoo

Ksinger -- thanks so much for supporting teachers as much as you do. I think that a lot of people who don't work in this profession (or who don't have SOs who do) just don't understand. This is the only profession I know about where we can't negotiate salary and/or ask for raises. Well, many schools have a negotiations committee who volunteer their time after school and evenings to work on that, but for the most part, we follow a strict pay scale. If we think we're doing a great job and are improving student learning, can we ask for a raise? Not really. We're paid what the district or state sets for us, and we don't get much of a say in the matter.

I'm still making my way through the thread, so I haven't read it all yet, but I know someone's probably going to mention the amount of time off that teachers get. Why should teachers get X salary when they don't work a full year, AND they get weeks and days off throughout the school year as well? I know we get a lot of time off and I can't complain about that at all. I don't know a single teacher who truly takes off all that time though. While we may not be working with students during school vacation weeks or summer break, we are planning, going to workshops, and getting prepared for when we do see kids again. There's a lot that goes into teaching effectively, and many preople not in this profession don't see that. I don't mean for it to sound like we should be put on a pedestal or anything, but we should be treated as the professionals that we are.

Supporting teachers is no problem. Some would say it's because my husband is one, but all he did for me is let me in on the actual workings, which are kinda grim. I've been a big fan of public education forever, being the product of it myself, both in highschool and college. I like to think that I (and others) are proof that public education is a good deal, both economically and socially. It IS under siege these days.

Oh, and if (when) I get wound up and trot out something that my husband has told me, that seems OTC, please know that he's not the one running around with his hair on fire. He is actually the most stoic and matter-of-fact men - even for MEN - and I get these things as comments in passing, generally. He shrugs, and I go, "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA????" and freak out. It's why I'M not the teacher I guess. I'd never survive!

For those who think that because some teachers make 80 - 120 thousand, all or even most of them do, well, it just ain't so. Oklahoma ranks 47th? (48th?) in teacher pay nationally, and dead last in the region in expenditure per pupil. Sad and frustrating to say the least. But Oklahoma politics is truly Byzantine, meaning the powers that be are quite happy to have plenty of peasants. It's less competition on a limited food chain after all, so why pay much for educating them. So add all the usual challenges of teaching to some pretty amazing levels of poverty by the standards of much of the country, and you get an idea of the stress levels...

Crap! This is a fun thread and I have to go again! Grrr! I'll certainly be back later to see all the comments and to add more of my own!!