How to upgrade / ERD won't honor their upgrade policy?

[diamondseeker2006]

Basically one would have to consider that BE offers no upgrade policy at all if they can change the policy anytime after purchase. Why even list a policy at all if you won't honor what is in place when the stone is bought.

 

[cmd2014]

[He was very clear in our email exchanges that YES that was the policy when I bought the diamond but NO he has since changed the policy and isn't open to making an exception or honoring what we effectively agreed to when I bought this diamond.

Ok, I'm not a lawyer but I know that there are people on here who are. Is this not a violation of the contract agreed to at the point of sale? I can see changing policies as you want going forward (as a business owner, that's your prerogative), but I thought they would be contractually obligated to honor the agreements made in good faith when the previous policies were in effect.

Regardless of the circumstances (prices dropped, doesn't want the inventory, doesn't like the guy, EGL vs GIA - although unless I misread something, it does look like the OP bought a GIA cert stone recommended to him by those here which was listed initially through James Allan but ordered through ERD and that there was an exchange agreement in place for the specific diamond that he did buy), this was still a selling point at the time that the sale was made and it is highly suspect business practice to refuse to honor it.

I'm curious what it is about the ring that OP's wife would like to upgrade? 2 carats seems pretty nice (and it didn't seem like she had her heart set on more in the original thread).

 

[gobble]

ID Jewelry is probably more willing to work with you. Ask for Yekutiel.

https://www.idjewelry.com/

I assume you realize she will need to have her setting remade, right?

Ha, funny I met Yekutiel the same day I met Mark Turnowski. His counter is by a front window on the south side of 47th Street. He tried telling me the diamond I wanted (based on PS recommendations) was no good and I should buy one he had instead. I ran HCA numbers and it didn't do well but remember the response being something like look how nice it looks though. I was turned off by the experience at his counter and was impressed by Mark.

Didn't know I'd need a new setting. That makes this even harder.

 

[lovedogs]

Basically one would have to consider that BE offers no upgrade policy at all if they can change the policy anytime after purchase. Why even list a policy at all if you won't honor what is in place when the stone is bought.

Exactly, DS! And that's what doesnt sit well with me as a consumer! People often make their decision about which trusted vendor to use based on upgrade policies, especially first time buyers who are thinking about upgrading in the future. So to have an upgrade policy in place that the vendor has no obligation to follow (even if it's in place at the time of purchase) is complete B.S (IMHO). It almost feels like luring people in with a false sense of security--hyperbole of course, but just feels unfair to me as a practice.

 

[PintoBean]

ID Jewelry is probably more willing to work with you. Ask for Yekutiel.

https://www.idjewelry.com/

I assume you realize she will need to have her setting remade, right?

Ha, funny I met Yekutiel the same day I met Mark Turnowski. His counter is by a front window on the south side of 47th Street. He tried telling me the diamond I wanted (based on PS recommendations) was no good and I should buy one he had instead. I ran HCA numbers and it didn't do well but remember the response being something like look how nice it looks though. I was turned off by the experience at his counter and was impressed by Mark.

Didn't know I'd need a new setting. That makes this even harder.

If you don't feel like you clicked with IDJ a few years ago, I would suggest looking elsewhere. Try whiteflash.

 

[gobble]

[He was very clear in our email exchanges that YES that was the policy when I bought the diamond but NO he has since changed the policy and isn't open to making an exception or honoring what we effectively agreed to when I bought this diamond.

Ok, I'm not a lawyer but I know that there are people on here who are. Is this not a violation of the contract agreed to at the point of sale? I can see changing policies as you want going forward (as a business owner, that's your prerogative), but I thought they would be contractually obligated to honor the agreements made in good faith when the previous policies were in effect.

Regardless of the circumstances (prices dropped, doesn't want the inventory, doesn't like the guy, EGL vs GIA - although unless I misread something, it does look like the OP bought a GIA cert stone recommended to him by those here which was listed initially through James Allan but ordered through ERD and that there was an exchange agreement in place for the specific diamond that he did buy), this was still a selling point at the time that the sale was made and it is highly suspect business practice to refuse to honor it.

I'm curious what it is about the ring that OP's wife would like to upgrade? 2 carats seems pretty nice (and it didn't seem like she had her heart set on more in the original thread).

Problem is my "contract", if you want to call it that, is as basic as you can get. It references a stone size, measurements, polish, cut, symmetry, and a GIA certificate number. It doesn't even list the color and makes no mention of any upgrade policy. The policy is only listed on his website (and I did find it in some old PS posts) and I don't have a screenshot of the old policy. Like I said I do have emails from shortly after purchase where he cited the policy, but no written "contract". Any forced adherence to a policy would only come from a vendor wanting to maintain his reputation, not by any legal action.

 

[Boom]

I have had the same experience as the OP.

I bought my stone from ERD/BE many years ago when the upgrade policy stated that I had to spend 30% more.
When I asked about upgrading my stone a couple of years later, the policy had changed to 40% more.
I did question Mark at that time and said that he should honor the policy in place when I purchased the original stone but he indicated that his margin was low and the market was soft at that time.
Since I was looking at a stone priced much more than 40% above my original diamond, I didn't pursue it further.
I did however, say that he should indicate clearly on his website that his upgrade policy was subject to change and would apply to stones purchased before the change so that potential customers can take that into account before buying a stone.
I do not know his upgrade policy since then as I have not checked.

Mark was quite helpful when I was looking to make a purchase but if I intend to upgrade my stone in the future, he would not be my first choice vendor, especially now that I would have to spend 100% more.

 

[gobble]

[/quote]
If you don't feel like you clicked with IDJ a few years ago, I would suggest looking elsewhere. Try whiteflash.[/quote]

Thanks, I just got of the phone with them. They do have a trade in program towards in-house diamonds. However, the vast majority of their in-house diamonds are AGS. They don't have anything between 2.5 and 3.5 carats that is GIA.

 

[gobble]

I have had the same experience as the OP.

I bought my stone from ERD/BE many years ago when the upgrade policy stated that I had to spend 30% more.
When I asked about upgrading my stone a couple of years later, the policy had changed to 40% more.
I did question Mark at that time and said that he should honor the policy in place when I purchased the original stone but he indicated that his margin was low and the market was soft at that time.
Since I was looking at a stone priced much more than 40% above my original diamond, I didn't pursue it further.
I did however, say that he should indicate clearly on his website that his upgrade policy was subject to change and would apply to stones purchased before the change so that potential customers can take that into account before buying a stone.
I do not know his upgrade policy since then as I have not checked.

Mark was quite helpful when I was looking to make a purchase but if I intend to upgrade my stone in the future, he would not be my first choice vendor, especially now that I would have to spend 100% more.

You too, wow. Funny that a "Lifetime" policy is "subject to change".

 

[cmd2014]

From what I understand, "contracts" (as seen by the law) can be verbal (although these are hard to prove), or can be formally written, or can be anything which proves that you had a specific agreement (i.e., the Terms of Sale). The advantage is that you do have information about what was promised to you in writing via those emails (including the acknowledgement of the failure to follow through with the previous terms of sale). The disadvantage is that you'd likely pay way more in legal fees than it would cost to walk away and take the hit on your stone, unless threat of legal action would be enough to move the vendor to making this go away by being more cooperative. But again, I am neither a lawyer nor an American, so what goes where I am may be very different than what does in the US.

But I agree with previous posters, what this means is that EDR/BE effectively does not have a credible upgrade policy, and if they are not credible, then buyer beware (and spend your hard earned money somewhere else).

And I'd also suggest that when people have these issues with trusted/popular vendors, it makes it even more important to post about them. Otherwise how many others are going to get scammed before it all comes to light...

 

[rubybeth]

Thanks, I just got of the phone with them. They do have a trade in program towards in-house diamonds. However, the vast majority of their in-house diamonds are AGS. They don't have anything between 2.5 and 3.5 carats that is GIA.

AGS is also acceptable. GIA and AGS certified stones are the ones recommended on Pricescope. For example, Whiteflash and Brian Gavin Diamonds use AGS for their branded stones. We generally say to avoid EGL stones.

 

[gobble]

Thanks, I just got of the phone with them. They do have a trade in program towards in-house diamonds. However, the vast majority of their in-house diamonds are AGS. They don't have anything between 2.5 and 3.5 carats that is GIA.

AGS is also acceptable. GIA and AGS certified stones are the ones recommended on Pricescope. For example, Whiteflash and Brian Gavin Diamonds use AGS for their branded stones. We generally say to avoid EGL stones.

Oops, had that confused with EGL. Thanks.

Their "in-house" stones seem more expensive than the others?

 

[kemurphy]

You should look at the website "the wayback machine". https://archive.org/web/

It has a cache of websites from various dates. Using that I was able to pick a random date a few years ago, I don't know when you purchased, but on March 13, 2013 the return policy states in writing that it is a 50% requirement.

So here it is in writing!

http://web.archive.org/web/20130314043827/http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/site-page/Lifetime_Upgrade_policy.html

eta: It does say " All policies are subject to change based on date of purchase" but it doesn't specify the original purchase or the upgrade purchase...

 

[gobble]

You should look at the website "the wayback machine". https://archive.org/web/

It has a cache of websites from various dates. Using that I was able to pick a random date a few years ago, I don't know when you purchased, but on March 13, 2013 the return policy states in writing that it is a 50% requirement.

So here it is in writing!

http://web.archive.org/web/20130314043827/http://www.engagementringsdirect.com/site-page/Lifetime_Upgrade_policy.html

eta: It does say " All policies are subject to change based on date of purchase" but it doesn't specify the original purchase or the upgrade purchase...

Very good detective work.

* All policies are subject to change based on date of purchase. Last update 11/11/11.

I read that as Lifetime for the policy in effect at your date of purchase and the policy could change for later dates of purchase. Otherwise the term "Lifetime" becomes a huge contradiction.

 

[kenny]

When I try to go to www.engagementringsdirect.com it automatically redirects to www.brilliantlyengaged.com .
That's no random accident, so I assume BE is a newer business, and both are/were run by Mark Turnowski.
Curiously, Turnowski's long and impressive profile on his BE website doesn't mention ERD.

BE is on the list of PS sponsors, so PS can lean on Turnowski to resolve this.

Gobble, I recommend emailing Andre, PS's major owner.
Ask him to ask Mark Turnowski to honor the policy he agreed to during your purchase.
If Turnowski says ERD is out of business so he doesn't have to ... well ... that's reason enough to kick BE off the sponsor list ... It's the same owner, so the same ethics will apply to his new business.

Plus, since Turnowski made ERD web searches go to to BE's website that means he's still happy to make money off the ERD name, another reason he should honor policies from that business.

After many years of bad behavior I see that Diamonds by Lauren is no longer a sponsor of PS, so I believe PS cares about what is ethical and not just about making money off their sponsors.

When PS sponsors are unethical PS can and should help, otherwise it makes PS look unethical to accept their checks.

Click on 'Contact Us' at the bottom of this screen to reach admin.
I'd be sure I got a reply from Andre himself, not anyone else who works for him.

IMO one of the most important functions of PS is to shine sunlight on bad vendor behavior, PS sponsor or not.

 

[gobble]

I think he just made a name change. He still uses engagementringsdirect as his email. The more I think about this the more upset I am.

This is my diamond https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.09-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-248746

I didn't want to post this but here you go:

From: Mark Turnowski [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 2:13 PM
To: xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com>
Subject: Re: Cartier 1895 size

I understand but I have the right to change policy.I'm not trying to create an issue but as the owner of the company I do have to protect my business so I'm sure you understand that policy can change.

Mark

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 3:08 PM, xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com> wrote:

But the contract for my diamond was under the 50% policy…

From: Mark Turnowski [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 2:08 PM
To: xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com>

Subject: Re: Cartier 1895 size

Hi marK

I had changed the policy to reflect market conditions as I was put into a position that with the upgrade at the time I was losing money as well as having to lay out the funds before I was able to sell the returned diamond. in fact I have a few diamonds in stock that reflect this problem and thus the change.

mark

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 2:56 PM, xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com> wrote:

Mark

I thought we had talked about this before and I found an old email. You state below the upgrade policy on my purchase is 50%. I certainly don’t remember 100% as that seems impossible. Can we find something in the $30,000 range?

Thanks

Mark

From: Mark Turnowski [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 9:14 AM
To: xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com>
Subject: RE: Cartier 1895 size

Hi Mark:
The difference between H/I is minimal and especially with the LED lights in both stores its very difficult to see the difference so its more of a sales person pitch.. However after the 30 day period our policy requires a 50% increase above the original cost. This would require an additional 8568 at a minimum.

mark

From: xxx (US - Chicago) [mailto:@.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:29 PM
To: Mark Turnowski
Subject: RE: Cartier 1895 size

Mark

Lori has it in her head, probably after seeing what they have at Cartier and Tiffany, that "H" is ok and "I" is bad. How possible/impossible would it be to pay a little more and upgrade to something like this? It's the last thing I really want to do but thought I'd ask. I'll be in NYC next Monday - Wednesday.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3033760.htm
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.03-carat-h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-267576

Thanks

 

[kenny]

I think he just made a name change. He still uses engagementringsdirect as his email. The more I think about this the more upset I am.

This is my diamond https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.09-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-248746

I didn't want to post this but here you go:

From: Mark Turnowski [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 2:13 PM
To: xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com>
Subject: Re: Cartier 1895 size

I understand but I have the right to change policy.I'm not trying to create an issue but as the owner of the company I do have to protect my business so I'm sure you understand that policy can change.

Mark

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 3:08 PM, xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com> wrote:

But the contract for my diamond was under the 50% policy…

From: Mark Turnowski [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 2:08 PM
To: xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com>

Subject: Re: Cartier 1895 size

Hi marK

I had changed the policy to reflect market conditions as I was put into a position that with the upgrade at the time I was losing money as well as having to lay out the funds before I was able to sell the returned diamond. in fact I have a few diamonds in stock that reflect this problem and thus the change.

mark

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 2:56 PM, xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com> wrote:

Mark

I thought we had talked about this before and I found an old email. You state below the upgrade policy on my purchase is 50%. I certainly don’t remember 100% as that seems impossible. Can we find something in the $30,000 range?

Thanks

Mark

From: Mark Turnowski [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 9:14 AM
To: xxx (US - Chicago) <@.com>
Subject: RE: Cartier 1895 size

Hi Mark:
The difference between H/I is minimal and especially with the LED lights in both stores its very difficult to see the difference so its more of a sales person pitch.. However after the 30 day period our policy requires a 50% increase above the original cost. This would require an additional 8568 at a minimum.

mark

From: xxx (US - Chicago) [mailto:@.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:29 PM
To: Mark Turnowski
Subject: RE: Cartier 1895 size

Mark

Lori has it in her head, probably after seeing what they have at Cartier and Tiffany, that "H" is ok and "I" is bad. How possible/impossible would it be to pay a little more and upgrade to something like this? It's the last thing I really want to do but thought I'd ask. I'll be in NYC next Monday - Wednesday.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3033760.htm
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.03-carat-h-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-267576

Thanks

Quoting Mr. Turnowski, "The difference between H/I is minimal and especially with the LED lights in both stores its very difficult to see the difference so its more of a sales person pitch."

Mark Turnowski claims, GIA grades are "a sales person's pitch"?

 

[lovedogs]

Gobble: I'm glad you are getting more upset because you have every right to be furious! ERD shouldn't claim to have a lifetime upgrade policy if what they mean is "unless I feel like changing it and voiding contract". I agree with Kenny that you should escalate this to PS, especially after reading those ridiculous responses from Mark.

 

[flyingpig]

I had changed the policy to reflect market conditions as I was put into a position that with the upgrade at the time I was losing money as well as having to lay out the funds before I was able to sell the returned diamond. in fact I have a few diamonds in stock that reflect this problem and thus the change.

Wow. What a selfish, irresponsible, and incapable business owner. This really boils me.
The entire reason why consumers pick vendors with good upgrade policy is to protect their investment.
Upgrade policy is financial liability for a business owner who offers it. If you don't understand this, and cannot keep the promise when the market is against you, DO NOT OFFER at the first place.

In contrast, a quote by Texas Leaguer of Whiteflash

There are a couple of reasons that you don't see it that often. One, most jewelers do not actually stock many diamonds. And two, it is a liability for the company offering it. That is, it is essentially an open ended guarantee of store credit. And as you correctly point out, in a falling market this can be a boon for the consumer and a real hardship for the merchant. We had situations a few years ago in a very soft market where customers were taking advantage of trade-ups to bigger and/or better stones with little or no out of pocket.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Gobble, in response to your comments about Whiteflash, I didn't think they'd take your stone in trade. But their diamonds cost a little more because they are top cut hearts and arrows diamonds, and they offer an excellent upgrade policy where there is no minimum amount more you have to spend. So it is an excellent place to buy from when there is ever a chance that one would upgrade.

I thought IDJ would be a good match for you because they often buy diamonds from someone looking to upgrade, and they find good deals for the money. Some people are looking for lowest price, and others are looking at places like Whiteflash because they value high quality and excellent upgrade policies.

 

[gobble]

Gobble, in response to your comments about Whiteflash, I didn't think they'd take your stone in trade. But their diamonds cost a little more because they are top cut hearts and arrows diamonds, and they offer an excellent upgrade policy where there is no minimum amount more you have to spend. So it is an excellent place to buy from when there is ever a chance that one would upgrade.

I thought IDJ would be a good match for you because they often buy diamonds from someone looking to upgrade, and they find good deals for the money. Some people are looking for lowest price, and others are looking at places like Whiteflash because they value high quality and excellent upgrade policies.

I spoke today with Sheerah at Whiteflash and she took my GIA number and presented my stone to the management group. They came back with a number that would essentially cost $15,000 to go from my 2.09 to a 2.3 with the same color and clarity but without the medium fluorescence (which we like btw). I think making that exchange would be foolish, nobody at a party would even tell the difference. It was worth a try but the numbers just don't make sense.

If I knew then what I know now I would have looked harder at them in the first place.

 

[soxfan]

Gobble, has your wife given you a specific size she wants to upgrade to? Like 2.5 or 3 carats?

 

[PintoBean]

If you can swing it, buy the bigger diamond while the prices are at a low, and sell the original e-ring when prices are higher so your loss is minimized.

are there other stones she likes, like sapphires? Maybe she'd be open to a sapphire that is larger, size wise, as a cocktail type ring, and then keep the e-ring as is.

 

[PintoBean]

Gobble, has your wife given you a specific size she wants to upgrade to? Like 2.5 or 3 carats?

OMG sox fan that avatar! Thread jack mea culpa.