How to return gemstones internationally?

[stargurl78]

I don't know if this is the right thread for this but its in regards to a colored gemstone, so I thought I would post it here...

I recently bought a sapphire from Tan that I want to return. The cost of the stone was $880. Tan said to send it registered mail but do not declare the value of $880 and don't write "gemstone" anywhere on the package. So if I do not declare the value of $880, what happens if the item is lost in the mail? Am I simply out $880? If that is the case, I'm not comfortable sending this back without declaring the full value.

So what process do you use when you return stones internationally?

 

[pregcurious]

I'd like to know the answer to this also. Domestically, one does not have to declare the identity of the item with the USPS, just the value for insurance. I've used FedEx once domestically, using a vendors account which had insurance, to return a stone. I think I was instructed to write "collectable" in the description, but that was for the vendor's insurance policy.

 

[T L]

I have sent things back to him USPS express (three days to get to Thailand) and insured only for $100, and I declare it as documents. You simply cannot trust that it won't be opened and the item stolen. Often insuring things at a higher value in some countries is a red flag, and they will steal the contents. I have found that shipping things very quickly gives them more security than shipping with a large amount of insurance and declaring the items as "gems" which I would never do to another country. It costs $30 to do this, but I think its worth it. I never lost a return yet, but I'm sure others might chime in on this. It's a risk you take when buying outside the country I guess. Sorry.

Even if you send it registered, it doesn't guarantee that's a secure method of getting to it's location once it leaves the United States (if that's where you're from). That's why I like shipping only in the United States. Also do not write "gems" anywhere on the package, and I always pack it in a flat letter sized cardboard enevelope in a magazine in its original gem papers, stapled to the invoice inside the magazine. That way it looks like documents, and "feels" like documents.

 

[stargurl78]

I know when I shipped my stones to Sally to be set (still need to post those rings, oops!) she said to label them "magazines" or "documents" and not to insure or declare for the full value. My worry is that if it gets lost, then I'm out a lot of money. So I'm not really sure what the best way to handle that is. I think I'll try to keep future purchases within the US only

 

[pregcurious]

I'm a little at loss. I can't believe this has never come up before. Does everyone really return stones to Tan without insurance?

 

[marymm]

I've mailed stones to Singapore and to Thailand but none over a $300 value - I package it the way TL described (large mailing envelope with stone taped between two magazines) - I send it USPS First Class International Registered Mail, no insurance - on the Customs form I list it as "magazines and craft materials" with an arbitrary dollar value less than $30. Probably mailed out 8-10 packages this way over the last few years - all have made it safely to recipient though once or twice it took close to a month. (It is a bit of a crap shoot and I remain anxious until the package gets there - that's why the $300 cap for these types of purchases.)

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I had the same question when returning stones internationally. I got great advice from the post office. I was told that registered mail is relatively safe because it has to be signed for at each station en route. HOWEVER- when it gets to customs if you declare zero value on an item, and it is opened.........and there is an item of value it may dissappear. And since it was declared as no value not much credit is given to it's loss.

I have returned items to Thailand marked "documents, mineral specimens" with the correct declared value without any issue thus far. And I have it insured for the value as well. Hope this helps.

 

[T L]

I had the same question when returning stones internationally. I got great advice from the post office. I was told that registered mail is relatively safe because it has to be signed for at each station en route. HOWEVER- when it gets to customs if you declare zero value on an item, and it is opened.........and there is an item of value it may dissappear. And since it was declared as no value not much credit is given to it's loss.

I have returned items to Thailand marked "documents, mineral specimens" with the correct declared value without any issue thus far. And I have it insured for the value as well. Hope this helps.

That's why I declare it for $100 value, but I ship it express, as it gets there quickly. The most expensive thing I returned was $600 and it was nervewracking, but Tan got it in around 4 days. The thing I don't like about registered mail is that it takes forever, and the postal worker actually recommended express to me instead.

 

[Edward Bristol]

We ship hundereds of international registered packages and parcels every year in all possible combinations of Post, USPS, Fedex to and from Thailand, USA, Sri Lanka, Germany, OZ, Japan, anywhere really.

In eight years not one single item was lost, ever.

A post clerk or Fedex guy will not steal a registered package. He’d loose his job by noon next day (in any country, also in Thailand).

The issue here is not theft but customs.

Local taxes are, per definition, the receiver’s problem. National customs wants to collect sales-tax, VAT, or what ever it is called in the country. That is why the seller asks you to declare lower value (not because of theft).

If the seller wants a lower value declaration to minimize his taxes he must cover the risk. Sorry, Tan.

Put it like that: A seller can not ask to have-the-cake (pay no local taxes) and then, if there is trouble, eat-the-cake (leave the risk with you).

I can not recommend “magazine” when you have gemstones inside. In fact, it is illegal. Customs will not steal gems but they will confiscate wrongly declared goods.

Generally: Keep the value low and chose a clever but correct description (e.g. "blue corundum" is better than sapphire or gemstone).

 

[deorwine]

I declare gemstones as "mineral specimens," which is technically correct, right? Though I've never returned anything over $200, either.

 

[stargurl78]

We ship hundereds of international registered packages and parcels every year in all possible combinations of Post, USPS, Fedex to and from Thailand, USA, Sri Lanka, Germany, OZ, Japan, anywhere really.

In eight years not one single item was lost, ever.

A post clerk or Fedex guy will not steal a registered package. He’d loose his job by noon next day (in any country, also in Thailand).

The issue here is not theft but customs.

Local taxes are, per definition, the receiver’s problem. National customs wants to collect sales-tax, VAT, or what ever it is called in the country. That is why the seller asks you to declare lower value (not because of theft).

If the seller wants a lower value declaration to minimize his taxes he must cover the risk. Sorry, Tan.

Put it like that: A seller can not ask to have-the-cake (pay no local taxes) and then, if there is trouble, eat-the-cake (leave the risk with you).

I can not recommend “magazine” when you have gemstones inside. In fact, it is illegal. Customs will not steal gems but they will confiscate wrongly declared goods.

Generally: Keep the value low and chose a clever but correct description (e.g. "blue corundum" is better than sapphire or gemstone).

Thank you for your post Edward. The bolded statement is my concern. By not declaring the full value, I am at risk for losing a lot of money if this package does not make it there safely. And I've been burned by USPS before so I don't have any reason to trust that it won't get lost or stolen. I'm going to declare the full value. I'll try to come up with a clever name for the sapphire, rather than listing sapphire or gemstone on the package.

Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions!

 

[Edward Bristol]

Uh, I would not do something in defiance of the seller's return instructions, rather it must be clear that its not at your risk.

Try to get an OK from him. Better.

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

I recently sent a ring back to the UK and asked the seller to specifically detail out any postage instructions. The only thing she asked was that I clearly marked the customs label with RETURN TO SENDER. She did not ask for me to list a lower value (like she did when she sent it to me...eek!) so I listed and insured it for the full value of $1600. The package has just been released from customs for delivery so fingers crossed it makes it to her with no problems.

I'm like you stargurl, I didn't want to risk sending it back with a declared value of $25 and no insurance. I technically did, but it only lasted until I got back to the car and broke out in a sweat. The extra $50 for insurance was well worth the worrying it has saved me over the past week so far. If it goes missing, oh well, that's what insurance is for!

On a side note, I'm not sure for other countries but I know in Australia it's illegal to declare a lower value for an item posted and there are penalties involved. It just wasn't worth the risk for me.

 

[stargurl78]

Uh, I would not do something in defiance of the seller's return instructions, rather it must be clear that its not at your risk.

Try to get an OK from him. Better.

Ok, thanks for the suggestion. I'll contact him now.


Thanks HOT for sharing! I was under the same impression that it was illegal to declare an incorrect value... Hmm.

 

[minousbijoux]

I have done it both ways in the past, and had an equivalent amount of worry (for different reasons) for each. By various vendors, I have been told to mark it as "sample," "synthetic," and "mineral specimen." I have also marked it as "jewelry supplies" in my own attempt to make it as innocuous as possible. I would advise sending it in the manner specified by the vendor in question (i.e., registered, Fed Ex, etc), but if they say to understate value of contents or call it something else, then I'd be more uncomfortable.

Bottom line: its no fun to return things overseas. Personally, I hate going to the post office and waiting in long lines...

 

[LD]

Just something for you all to consider ...............

Recently I had to send a very expensive stone from the UK to the US. I was asked to send it by FedEx but NOT declare that it was a gemstone and to simply state "documents". At the local UK depot they x-rayed the package and could see the stone. It was sent back to me and I was asked to re-declare what it was!!!!! Thankfully it was still in the UK and so wasn't an issue. I was sending it via FedEx as typically this is "normally" a safer method than regular post.

If I send a stone to Thailand for example I ALWAYS send by regular registered mail and declare "synthetic sample" or "glass sample" with a very very low value (less than $20). This avoid theft. However, in the UK you can take out separate insurance on the package up to selected limits (think £1,000 is the highest) depending on the amount insured, depends on what you pay but typically it's not more than £5-8. This is not declared anywhere on the package and only shows on your receipt. SO if you're in the UK think about using international registered mail and take out separate insurance at the Post Office counter.

 

[pregcurious]

Thanks, Ed for giving a vendor's point of view, and pointing out what is fair.

Stargurl, can you please let us know if Tan is okay with declaring the full value?

 

[colorluvr]

I bought an expensive stone (in excess of $1000) from Siamgold78 (Mai). The stone was beautiful, but a tad bit lighter than I had hoped, so I returned the stone.

Mai asked that I not send it back Priority USPS because customs tends to hold priority packages, while they often let standard go through without a glitch. I had never returned a store to her, even though I've purchased several, so I was hesitant to return an expensive stone regular mail with no insurance marked mineral sample, as she requested.

I explained to her that I would have no way to prove to paypal that I had sent the stone if it got lost (with no tracking or insurance) and the only way I could track and insure it was to send it International Express. I marked it "returned item" but declared the actual value.

She got back to me and told me that she had to drive to customs to pick up the package (they held it as she feared they would) AND she had to pay $100 customs fee (based on declared value) even though I had marked it a return.

I felt really bad, because she has been a wonderful vendor to deal with, but I just couldn't take the chance of sending that expensive of a stone back without insurance, and if you insure it for a certain amount, then of course you need to declare that amount on the customs form.

So I'm pretty sure that's why Tan wants it sent back as he requested.

 

[stargurl78]

Well Tan responded that its ok if I want to declare the full value but not to have any kind of invoice inside of the package, just something with my eBay ID and item number. So I sent it registered mail for the full value. After I paid for it, the lady says "you know this isn't insured for this amount". And I told her I thought that sending it registered meant it was covered for the full value. And she said you would have had to send it priority express with insurance which would have cost you more than twice the amount of postage and registered mail is the safer way to ship packages. So I left, confused. So does that mean I just sent an $880 package with no insurance?? I'm going to be on pins and needles for the next week or 2 until I hear from Tan

I just bought a replacement sapphire from Tan and I'm already regretting it on the chance I might not like it enough to keep it. I'm done buying stones internationally

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Well my package is being held by customs in the UK and they are telling the seller that she must pay £256 even though it is marked With return to sender. She has no idea why this has happened. I'm assuming it is because I declared the full value. I do feel terrible as well but she did not explicitly tell me not to and i didnt want to risk it. She has to contact border control and she can only do it by letter or fax so it looks like it's going to be a while until I get my refund!

Stargurl, Fingers crossed the package makes it! I'm sure it will.

 

[marymm]

I was told by a USPS Postal Clerk some weeks ago that First Class International Registered Mail insurance is limited to $46.00, regardless of the insured value of the article. She explained that I could purchase insurance for the full value of the item, but recovery under International Registered insurance is limited to $46.00. I was confused by this, so she had her manager come over and he said the same thing. Since then I have scoured the USPS website to find the policy or guideline where this is stated but have not yet found it.

 

[Aoife]

This is exactly why I don't usually buy gemstones from vendors outside the US, with the exception of Swala. The stress if you have to return something is a total deterrent even though I see things on Wildfish, or Tan's sites that I wouldn't mind seeing IRL.

That said, considering how may CS'ers buy non-domestically, or send stones to vendors like HOW, I'm actually impressed that there aren't more losses. Although when there are, it's heart-breaking.

 

[stargurl78]

HOT - I don't think you should feel bad, you have to cover yourself in case of loss or theft. And thank for crossing your fingers for me !

marymm - Thanks for sharing. I guess I thought that registered meant insured. Do you know if that is the case for domestic shipping?

Aoife - Well this has definitely deterred me from buying international stones in the future. Not worth the risk.


Please send dust for my package to make it there safely!!!

 

[T L]

HOT - I don't think you should feel bad, you have to cover yourself in case of loss or theft. And thank for crossing your fingers for me !

marymm - Thanks for sharing. I guess I thought that registered meant insured. Do you know if that is the case for domestic shipping?

Aoife - Well this has definitely deterred me from buying international stones in the future. Not worth the risk.


Please send dust for my package to make it there safely!!!

I will definitely buy international stones in the future, as I think many overseas sellers have great pricing on certain gems. I think to avoid returns, you should always ask as many questions of the vendor as possible before the purchase. Once your seller gets to know you, and you get to know their photography, it may be easier to avoid returns in the future.

Sending you lots of dust!!

 

[Aoife]

Lots of international shipping dust...........!

 

[Edward Bristol]

I can’t say I like the outcome of this thread: “Better don’t buy abroad”

A couple of questions:

- How do we stand on free-trade if shipping internationally is so terribly inconvenient that we better don’t buy abroad at all?

- How about the 5.4 billion people who happen to live outside the USA? How about Canada?

- Buying American goods online e.g. from Europe carries the same problems. Will somebody seriously suggest that Europeans shall not buy from the US anymore? Have we not enough economic problems?

And a few remarks:

It is not Tan’s fault that customs in Thailand is such a dinosaur institution. Many countries are totally cut off from the web because of this ancient sales-tax war. It is a coming to the USA too, see Amazon’s fight with California.

Generally, sales-tax is a good tax because it taxes only those who spend. It is very just, as far as taxes go. The system of sales-tax collection, however, was created to tax shiploads of goods but not single items.

That is the problem: When you buy a gem for $300 you have to go through the same system which Wal-Mart uses when they buy $30 million worth of goods.

 

[pregcurious]

I don't think the outcome is a broad "don't buy abroad" statement. I think the gist is, insure your stone for the paid amount when returning, international or otherwise. If an international vendor is against this because they do not want to pay customs, consider not buying from that vendor if losing the stone (and money) is not acceptable (because buying a stone without seeing it in person means you might not like it.)

This should not be an issue with international vendors if there is no disagreement with insuring the stone for the paid amount.

 

[colorluvr]

I was told by a USPS Postal Clerk some weeks ago that First Class International Registered Mail insurance is limited to $46.00, regardless of the insured value of the article. She explained that I could purchase insurance for the full value of the item, but recovery under International Registered insurance is limited to $46.00. I was confused by this, so she had her manager come over and he said the same thing. Since then I have scoured the USPS website to find the policy or guideline where this is stated but have not yet found it.

I believe there is a differnce between International Express (which I used) and 1st class International Registered, but I'd have to verify it to be sure. I believe you can get insurance for the amount you want with International Express, it's just going to be more expensive because it is express mail.

I will still buy stones from vendors in England and I would buy another stone from Mai or Tan, but I agree with TL, I'll be more thorough with my questions, especially if it is an expensive stone.

 

[Pandora II]

HOT - I don't think you should feel bad, you have to cover yourself in case of loss or theft. And thank for crossing your fingers for me !

marymm - Thanks for sharing. I guess I thought that registered meant insured. Do you know if that is the case for domestic shipping?

Aoife - Well this has definitely deterred me from buying international stones in the future. Not worth the risk.


Please send dust for my package to make it there safely!!!

I will definitely buy international stones in the future, as I think many overseas sellers have great pricing on certain gems. I think to avoid returns, you should always ask as many questions of the vendor as possible before the purchase. Once your seller gets to know you, and you get to know their photography, it may be easier to avoid returns in the future.

Sending you lots of dust!!

Ditto this!

You need to ask a LOT of questions and make sure you are almost certainly going to like it.

I've never sent a stone back, but then I've also never opened a parcel to find a stone that didn't look as good as I expected - sometimes they even look better!

Finding ways of communicating colour are key, and finding dealers who understand your foibles.

Also worth remembering that colours look different in different locales. A photo of a gemstone taken in sunlight in Thailand is going to look different when you unwrap the box in NYC - different light = different wavelengths = different colour perceptions.

IFor example, I've learnt that vivid blue sapphires in tropical climes are going to look about two tones too dark back home in Blighty and now I look for ones that I think are perhaps a touch on the lighter side.

 

[stargurl78]

Well its been 11 days since I sent out this stone and I just called USPS to find out if it has arrived. They said it left NY on Nov 22nd and they are waiting for Thailand to confirm that it has arrived to their country. Would it really take more than 6 days to arrive there? I am starting to get concerned. How long has the return process taken for those of you who have returned stones to Thailand?

I know several of you don't seem to like the "don't buy abroad" outcome of this thread but I'm with Aoife, its just not worth the stress. I am now at risk for being out $880 and that is a LOT of money to me. I'm just sick over the idea that this stone could be lost or stolen, although I realize I might be getting ahead of myself.

Please keep sending dust that this stone arrives soon!