How to know if a SI2 is eye clean?

[frosty81]

I have been researching my diamond purchase for the past 2 years. I feel like I’ve learned a lot and am ready to buy. Recently I had a diamond shipped for $70 to the online vendor’s location (Abazais). It was an EGL USA, H, SI2, 2.1ct for $9,500 and scored extremely well on the HCA. To my disappointment, the inclusion was right in the middle of the table. I need to find a better way to pick out a diamond. Not the guess and check method. My budget is $10,000 and I’m looking for a round brilliant, clarity SI2 eye clean, sized between 1.8ct and 2ct. The ring that the diamond is going into has 1.37cts of G-H colored pave stones so I probably can’t go beyond I in color. This may fall into the “value” category but cut is also very important. There are so many online vendors I''m kind of at a stand still. Do I pay more for GOG services? Do I trust my own eyes and use the virtual loupe on James Allen? When it comes to SI1 and SI2 diamonds it is important to know if black is in the table or it''s eye clean. What is the best method to achieve this. Many of you have bought already so please let me know what worked best.

 

[Kaleigh]

Increase your budget....

 

[sonnyjane]

Date: 10/20/2009 12:55:32 AM
Author: Kaleigh
Increase your budget....

That''s one. Also use a reputable PS vendor that you can call (and TRUST) to tell you if a stone is eye clean if you can''t go see it in person. Reputable dealers won''t lie, because they know if they send it and you''re not satisfied, you''ll just return it. The virtual loupe on JA is good since it''s an actual image of that particular stone, but I''d still call JA to ask them as well.

 

[stone-cold11]

Ya, ask the opinion of a trusted vendor if it is eye-clean to your standard. Do not use the loupe/magnified image to judge the eye-cleanliness of a stone as the inclusions may be hidden or exaggerated due to lighting conditions and focal length of the camera.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/20/2009 12:16:03 AM
Author:frosty81
I have been researching my diamond purchase for the past 2 years. I feel like I’ve learned a lot and am ready to buy. Recently I had a diamond shipped for $70 to the online vendor’s location (Abazais). It was an EGL USA, H, SI2, 2.1ct for $9,500 and scored extremely well on the HCA. To my disappointment, the inclusion was right in the middle of the table. I need to find a better way to pick out a diamond. Not the guess and check method. My budget is $10,000 and I’m looking for a round brilliant, clarity SI2 eye clean, sized between 1.8ct and 2ct. The ring that the diamond is going into has 1.37cts of G-H colored pave stones so I probably can’t go beyond I in color. This may fall into the “value” category but cut is also very important. There are so many online vendors I''m kind of at a stand still. Do I pay more for GOG services? Do I trust my own eyes and use the virtual loupe on James Allen? When it comes to SI1 and SI2 diamonds it is important to know if black is in the table or it''s eye clean. What is the best method to achieve this. Many of you have bought already so please let me know what worked best.

Hi Frosty

The ONLY way to know is to work with a vendor who has the stone in hand and can inspect it for you and advise. Also it is so important to make your expectations clear, if you don''t want to see any visible inclusions from any angle or distance, make sure you tell them that so you are both on the same page.

 

[FB.]

The best way to be confident of eye clean: buy a VS-clarity stone.

The only way to be sure that an SI2 is eye clean is to see it - or get someone reliable to check it for you.

Most SI1's are likely to be eye clean to most people, most of the time.

VS2 is almost always eye clean.

But bear in mind that if the stone is an eye clean SI2, there must still be some large inclusions inside - perhaps clouds that are spoiling light transmision, even though you can't see them.
I've seen some "eye-clean" stones in SI2 and lower, but they were hazy and slightly dull due to clouds.

The best chance of an eye clean SI2 is to hope that you can find one that was *almost* a low SI1, rather than one that was *almost" a high I1/SI3.
Perhaps an SI2 with more but smaller inclusions might be clean. Perhaps be wary of crystals under the table (especially clusters that appear as one crystal).
Perhaps you could consider one that isn't eye clean if the large inclusions could be hidden under a prong or bezel.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 10/20/2009 6:27:14 AM
Author: FB.
The best way to be confident of eye clean: buy a VS-clarity stone.

The only way to be sure that an SI2 is eye clean is to see it - or get someone reliable to check it for you.

Most SI1''s are likely to be eye clean to most people, most of the time.

VS2 is almost always eye clean.

But bear in mind that if the stone is an eye clean SI2, there must still be some large inclusions inside - perhaps clouds that are spoiling light transmision, even though you can''t see them.
I''ve seen some ''eye-clean'' stones in SI2 and lower, but they were hazy and slightly dull due to clouds.

The best chance of an eye clean SI2 is to hope that you can find one that was *almost* a low SI1, rather than one that was *almost'' a high I1/SI3.
Perhaps an SI2 with more but smaller inclusions might be clean. Perhaps be wary of crystals under the table (especially clusters that appear as one crystal).
Perhaps you could consider one that isn''t eye clean if the large inclusions could be hidden under a prong or bezel.

While I have no doubt that FB''s experiences were as he represents, I do want to reassure readers that there are many SI2 stones that do not appear hazy or dull.

I am an avid fan of SI2 stones, and I own several of them. None of the stones I own exhibit haziness or dullness; they are as bright and lively as my SI1 and VS stones.

Also, placement under the table in and of itself isn''t necessarily to be avoided. Many of the regular trade participants have said that it''s actually more difficult to appreciate inclusions located under the table than those located near the edges.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/20/2009 12:16:03 AM
Author:frosty81
What is the best method to achieve this.

Buy from a dealer you trust and who actually has the merchandise in hand and can look at it. If it passes their evaluation, arrange to look at it yourself.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 10/20/2009 6:27:14 AM
Author: FB.


The only way to be sure that an SI2 is eye clean is to see it - or get someone reliable to check it for you.



But bear in mind that if the stone is an eye clean SI2, there must still be some large inclusions inside - perhaps clouds that are spoiling light transmision, even though you can''t see them. I''ve seen some ''eye-clean'' stones in SI2 and lower, but they were hazy and slightly dull due to clouds.

I definitely agree with this comment.

Then I wish to politely suggest that they were not properly graded, perhaps graded as such by EGL or IGI.

A stone that is visually hazy or dull should not be graded higher than I1 at best. I have seen, own and sold, far too many SI2 diamonds to accept this comment as stated, it is simply not in line with my observations over nearly 35 years in the trade.

Wink

 

[oldminer]

It is likely that you will need to pay more for a truly eye-clean SI2 than a slightly not eye-clean SI2. Your budget is best managed by staying at the very lowest weight uyou will accept and then deal only with a vendor who has the diamond in-house and who agrees to examine the stone for this attribute BEFORE sending it to you. You may find that "nearly eye-clean" is good enough for your purpose if you remain open minded.

 

[HVVS]

How eye clean does it have to be? That gets much harder to accomplish with larger diamonds. Will you or she really be disgusted if you can see anything at all? SI diamonds and the links in it show some great SI2s.

 

[FB.]

Allison D.

I don''t doubt that you have some very nice SI2''s, but according to your signature, you''re in a perfect position to view many stones and to intercept the very best one''s.

 

[FB.]

Wink

I'm fairly sure that I've seen a small number of GIA SI2's that were slightly hazy and dull - you could even see a slightly brownish tint to the pink areas, and less-than-sharp appearance, through an idealscope.
They are only a minority of SI2's with troublesome clouds, though and I have a bit of an eye for detail (I work as a scientist). In fact, I recently saw a vyer nice J/SI2 with clouds as the grade-setters, but the clouds were two dense one's about 1-1.5mm across (as a guess). The stone was eye-clean, but with a lens you could see the clouds easily.
My statement mentioned "in SI2 and lower" - I agree that it's the I grades where the cloud-induced haziness can become almost a frosted appearance.

I would certainly bow to your experience.
Perhaps my definition of hazy was a bit harsh?
I didn't mean to imply that the stones would look like frosted glass. Merely that there would be a slightly visible (but not too serious) loss of brilliance when compared with a high-clarity stone - more along the lines of comparing and seeing the difference in diamonds from the colourless and near-colourless grades.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Everyone!
FB- It''s such a common misconception that it''s quite important to draw the distinction.
Being an SI2 in no way indicates a stone will be cloudy.... or even have imperfections visible to the naked eye.

In fact, it is highly unlikely that an SI2 sized imperfection/imperfections would cause cloudiness in a stone. I agree that there are a few out there- but it''s very rare.

Another important aspect in this case is that the SI2 grade was issued by EGL- in all likelihood such a stone would grade I1 by GIA.

Many SI2s make amazing values- but as others have mentioned- they need to be purchased from a company that can offer first hand, personal observation.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 10/20/2009 12:48:22 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Everyone!
FB- It''s such a common misconception that it''s quite important to draw the distinction.
Being an SI2 in no way indicates a stone will be cloudy.... or even have imperfections visible to the naked eye.

In fact, it is highly unlikely that an SI2 sized imperfection/imperfections would cause cloudiness in a stone. I agree that there are a few out there- but it''s very rare.

Another important aspect in this case is that the SI2 grade was issued by EGL- in all likelihood such a stone would grade I1 by GIA.

Many SI2s make amazing values- but as others have mentioned- they need to be purchased from a company that can offer first hand, personal observation.

Well said!

 

[elle_chris]

As with any SI2, I think it goes back to the viewer. What someone might call eye clean based on their eyesight but not be to someone else. I have a VS2 that WF said was eye clean, that I think is eye clean, that my husband thinks is eye clean. But I had a jeweler at William Barthman (for those new yorkers that may know the store), spot the inclusion after looking at the stone for a few seconds.

I think it''s important for whomever is purchasing the stone to see it in person.

 

[coda72]

Frosty, Eyeclean SI2 stones do exist; I have owned a couple of them. I think that you probably have to buy a GIA or AGS stone to get an accurately graded SI2. In addition, buying from a vendor that has the stone in hand is the best way to do it. You may have to pay more for such a stone, but I think it''s worth it. Also, just to clear up some misinformation, SI2 stones are not all cloudy. My current SI2 stone has just crystals in it, no clouds, and it''s nowhere near dull. I get comments and people staring at it all the time. My stone also has some scattered crystals under the table which cannot be seen with the naked eye. I can see one inclusion from the side about 6 inches from my eye, but no one gets close enough to see this but me. So, basically good SI2s exist, but it is definitely better to have the vendor inspect it for you, so you don''t have to send it back.

 

[FB.]

I just re-read my earlier post and maybe it gave the impression that all eye-clean SI2's are cloudy, which is not the case at all.
I'd like to clarity that - in my experience....

An eye clean SI2 doesn't necessarily suffer from being hazy - in fact, neither does an "eye dirty" SI2 appear cloudy if it only has a few large crystals. But many eye clean SI2's do have significant clouds which need some careful checking.
Judge each SI2 stone - get a trusted professional opinion, or see it for yourself.
If an SI2 stone has clouds as grade setters (listed first below the inclusion plot), or has the comment "clarity grade based on clouds that are not shown", then you need to be sure that it's not cloudy and losing brilliance. It might be a problem - or it might not.
If an "eye clean" SI2 doesn't have any mention of clouds, then it is unlikely to be cloudy.

Basically, what I'm saying is that VS clarity virtually guarantees eye clean. SI clarity is often - but not always - eye clean.

Here's my "take" on GIA-cert clarity, when looked at from normal viewing angles:

VVS2 or higher ought to always be eye clean, no matter how hard you look.
VS1 ought to have 99% of stones eye clean at six inches.
VS2 ought to see 99% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 95% eye clean from six inches.
SI1 is about 70% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 50% eye clean from six inches.
SI2 is about 40% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 20% eye clean from six inches.

I'm willing to negotiate a bit on the percentages - if more experienced PS-ers would like to add their views. - Now edited after GH's comment below.

In the estimates above, I'm assuming that you'll be examining the stone far more thoroughly than any person that you'll meet in public. Therefore, to the average "casual admirer", you could effectively assume that an SI1 to your trained eyes will look like an VS2 to them - with the inclusions much harder to see because they don't know where they are. Even specks of fluff and dust that inevitable gather on the surface can look like inclusions until you wipe it.

Eyesight, lighting conditions, viewing angle, knowledge of the inclusion location and the amount of time spent looking will make a difference.
I have a GIA-cert VS2 that I can see the black crystals under the table. But I know where to look and I need to be at six inches, from the perfect angle and in bright light to see the crystals. The stone *is* eye clean as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/20/2009 3:31:41 PM
Author: FB.
SI1 is about 85% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 70% eye clean from six inches.
SI2 is about 70% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 50% eye clean from six inches.

I''m willing to negotiate a bit on the percentages - if more experienced PS-ers would like to add their views.

I think that # is way too high FB.
Of GIA 1ct stones (size is very very important - bigger the stone the easier it will be to see SI''s).
I think less than 30% of SI2 1ct GIA graed diamonds would be eye clean.

This article was written specifically for this purpose
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/78/1/What-is-an-Eye-Clean-Diamond--.aspx

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 10/20/2009 12:15:40 PM
Author: FB.
Allison D.

I don''t doubt that you have some very nice SI2''s, but according to your signature, you''re in a perfect position to view many stones and to intercept the very best one''s.

Ah, but FB.....when I bought all of those SI2 stones stones, I was a PS consumer only and had no trade connection.

Just like every shopper here, I examined the paperwork and images, contacted the vendors, and asked questions. I let their trusted eyes be mine, and I wasn''t disappointed.

I actually visited a vendor or two during my consumer days and had the chance to see a wide array of inventory, too. I can confidently say that most SI2s I saw that were AGS/GIA graded were not only lively but eyeclean too.

 

[Steel]

Date: 10/20/2009 12:16:03 AM
Author:frosty81
I have been researching my diamond purchase for the past 2 years. I feel like I’ve learned a lot and am ready to buy. Recently I had a diamond shipped for $70 to the online vendor’s location (Abazais). It was an EGL USA, H, SI2, 2.1ct for $9,500 and scored extremely well on the HCA. To my disappointment, the inclusion was right in the middle of the table. I need to find a better way to pick out a diamond. Not the guess and check method. My budget is $10,000 and I’m looking for a round brilliant, clarity SI2 eye clean, sized between 1.8ct and 2ct. The ring that the diamond is going into has 1.37cts of G-H colored pave stones so I probably can’t go beyond I in color. This may fall into the “value” category but cut is also very important. There are so many online vendors I''m kind of at a stand still. Do I pay more for GOG services? Do I trust my own eyes and use the virtual loupe on James Allen? When it comes to SI1 and SI2 diamonds it is important to know if black is in the table or it''s eye clean. What is the best method to achieve this. Many of you have bought already so please let me know what worked best.

Hi there,

If you have been studying you know that unless your budget it infinite then something has to give. You can''t ask for near on 2cts for 10k and not expect inclusions. There may be the one jewel in the crown but it will take some hunting and if you pay 70 quid each time you try to draw in a duckling in case it is a swan you could end up spending a small fortune before you know it.

So that said, I think any diamond search is exciting and wish you a big bundle of luck.

Here are a few picks:

GOG 10.7k : 1.61 I SI1 H&A with faint flour LINKY
GOG 6.6k (!): 1.6M SI1 No flour but looks a nice colour ; check on that inclusion LINKY
HighPerformanceDiamonds 11.9k : 1.87 L VS2 but check out the SBflour! Mmmmh LINKY
WF 11k: 2.01 K SI2 no Flour I must say this could be a looker if eye clean LINKY

 

[FB.]

Thanks for your proportion of eye clean SI2 input, Garry. I have merged my percentages with yours to reach a compromise, so as not to risk too badly misleading people.

The numbers came from my observations and from what I see with my favourite jeweller (UK based). The "veteran" jeweller insists that if it isn't eye clean, then it should usually be SI3 or lower. They reckon that only a small proportion of SI2 should have visible inclusions at about 1ft. They don't always cert their stones (but they will if you ask), but I have one of their uncertificated SI2's and it neither has eye-visible inclusions, nor does it have issues with clouds. My jeweller is actually very good and trustworthy; before I was as diamond-wise as now, I paid a slightly higher-than-expected price for a three-stone ring to be built at their discretiion, but after seeing the finished ring and looking at the diamond proportion certificates, the ring had super-ideal stones and it was something very special.
I get the feeling that the strictness of grading has slipped somewhat - and what used to be I1 is now SI2.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 10/20/2009 4:11:59 PM
Author: FB.
Thanks for your proportion of eye clean SI2 input, Garry. I have merged my percentages with yours to reach a compromise, so as not to risk too badly misleading people.

The numbers came from my observations and from what I see with my favourite jeweller (UK based). The ''veteran'' jeweller insists that if it isn''t eye clean, then it should usually be SI3 or lower. They reckon that only a small proportion of SI2 should have visible inclusions at about 1ft. They don''t always cert their stones (but they will if you ask), but I have one of their uncertificated SI2''s and it neither has eye-visible inclusions, nor does it have issues with clouds. My jeweller is actually very good and trustworthy; before I was as diamond-wise as now, I paid a slightly higher-than-expected price for a three-stone ring to be built at their discretiion, but after seeing the finished ring and looking at the diamond proportion certificates, the ring had super-ideal stones and it was something very special.
I get the feeling that the strictness of grading has slipped somewhat - and what used to be I1 is now SI2.

That shows that you have not seen the "real" market FB - you are living in a safe place with trusted eyes workiing for you

Also 12 inches is not where most engagement ring customers look from.
25 year olds mostly look from 6-8 inches.
read my eye sight test at the end of the link journal article I gave

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/78/1/What-is-an-Eye-Clean-Diamond--.aspx

 

[frosty81]

Ah "eye clean", talk about a subjective descriptor. It''s not on any grading certification. I''ve seen what I would call eye clean SI2''s and non eye clean VS2''s both GIA certed. Depends on location and type of inclusion. I''m looking for a diamond that doesn''t have visible black in the table viewed from above at a distance of 18 inches. I''m OK with pin point black on the side, slight gaining, clouding and feathering but not too much that it''s dulled. It still needs to be considered a sparkly and pretty diamond. So I guess I''m looking for "nearly eye clean with little to no visible black.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 10/20/2009 3:45:39 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 10/20/2009 3:31:41 PM
Author: FB.
SI1 is about 85% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 70% eye clean from six inches.
SI2 is about 70% of stones eye clean from twelve inches and 50% eye clean from six inches.

I''m willing to negotiate a bit on the percentages - if more experienced PS-ers would like to add their views.

I think that # is way too high FB.
Of GIA 1ct stones (size is very very important - bigger the stone the easier it will be to see SI''s).
I think less than 30% of SI2 1ct GIA graed diamonds would be eye clean.

This article was written specifically for this purpose
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/78/1/What-is-an-Eye-Clean-Diamond--.aspx

I have no idea about the percentages in GIA-graded stones, and the secondary market of Antwerp is mainly a leftover-market for GIA-reports, so no good source for adequate information.

However, when talking about AGS-reports, I would say that the above figures are way too low, and are close to if not completely 100% in SI1.

Live long,

 

[ct-appr]

Get a stone with a GIA or AGS report. From what you have written, I think you would be happier with an SI1 vs SI2. Some SI2s are not too bad but they will have "noticable inclusions". You could drop your color to an "I" or increase your budget. If you go with an "I", weak fluorescence may help it look better and an ideal or excellent cut will also help.