How to grade milkyness in diamonds

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There are many threads discussing this topic.
(Anyone want to try to list some given the frustrating search engine?
There would be some worthwhile content to copy and paste)

And I have played with a few ideas (mostly proprietary) and have built a collection of milky stones.
They should all of course be the same cut and color, but I only have one reliable source that offers stones accurately graded.

You need not be a gemologist to help out in this project - you could be a graphic designer for example.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

There are many threads discussing this topic.
(Anyone want to try to list some given the frustrating search engine?
There would be some worthwhile content to copy and paste)

And I have played with a few ideas (mostly proprietary) and have built a collection of milky stones.
They should all of course be the same cut and color, but I only have one reliable source that offers stones accurately graded.

You need not be a gemologist to help out in this project - you could be a graphic designer for example.

Garry I'm sorry I know very little about this topic.
The first source for information I would ask would be GIA. How do they do it?

 

[Regular Guy]

There are many threads discussing this topic.
(Anyone want to try to list some given the frustrating search engine?

Yes, unfortunately, working with Search here takes more than patience...it takes a willingness to experiment, maybe.

The success I had with Advanced Search recently, now found differently than before, is no longer working.

But, if we even only looked at the threads you were in Garry, where Advanced search should and seemed to use to work, it again, seems to no longer. But, if you instead go the to a post of yours, and select to the left of your name, and then, do a search in that space, the hits seem to work, resulting in 1 1/3 pages of results, three of which are these:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fluoresence.3428/#p154018

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...lor.93688/#post-1504657?hilit=milky*#p1504657

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...one.97617/#post-1586306?hilit=milky*#p1586306


Ira Z.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There are many threads discussing this topic.
(Anyone want to try to list some given the frustrating search engine?
There would be some worthwhile content to copy and paste)

And I have played with a few ideas (mostly proprietary) and have built a collection of milky stones.
They should all of course be the same cut and color, but I only have one reliable source that offers stones accurately graded.

You need not be a gemologist to help out in this project - you could be a graphic designer for example.

Garry I'm sorry I know very little about this topic.
The first source for information I would ask would be GIA. How do they do it?

Please ask CCL.
I hope they will reply.

 

[diagem]

They should all of course be the same cut and color, but I only have one reliable source that offers stones accurately graded.

I think there is a problem consistently grading milky Diamonds..., they (the Diamonds) dont like artificial light..., actually they dont like light period. I find they appear their best in shadows!

Doesnt Venus have an internal system for grading them?
I know quite a few people that market these milky Diamonds while using GIA grading as a favored tool for the purpose.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting topic Garry. I remember an incredibly milky 1carat stone I saw one time- it was free of carbon and crystals, yet it was $100 per carat. I passed on it.
Are we looking at inert, or fluorescent milky stones in your photo?
Are any of the stones in the photo graded by GIA?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DiaGem Venus is the source of most of the stones.
They are the only company I know of who provide this service (they also run the best lab in the world IMO).

RD my marquise in another thread, and the large very milky round are about Medium Blue, but the fluoro is not the source because I can screen UV out with Lexan and they are still milky.
Also not all the other stones are fluoro, and none is cause by white graining issues that I can detect.

 

[diagem]

DiaGem Venus is the source of most of the stones.
They are the only company I know of who provide this service (they also run the best lab in the world IMO).

Then what is their system? Or is it proprietor's info?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DiaGem Venus is the source of most of the stones.
They are the only company I know of who provide this service (they also run the best lab in the world IMO).

Then what is their system? Or is it proprietor's info?

They have a master stone set similar to color grading DiaGem

 

[diagem]

DiaGem Venus is the source of most of the stones.
They are the only company I know of who provide this service (they also run the best lab in the world IMO).

Then what is their system? Or is it proprietor's info?

They have a master stone set similar to color grading DiaGem

And in which lighting? The main problem which results in grading inconsistency is different light reactions.
Super subjective IMO.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DiaGem Venus is the source of most of the stones.
They are the only company I know of who provide this service (they also run the best lab in the world IMO).

Then what is their system? Or is it proprietor's info?

They have a master stone set similar to color grading DiaGem

And in which lighting? The main problem which results in grading inconsistency is different light reactions.
Super subjective IMO.

DG I have used these stones at a few seminars asking appraisers and gemo's to examine them under a diamond light (fluoro tube and in shaded daylight. they have had a UV light source supplied and strangely many seemed more interested to play with the stones under UV than really learn to detect the milkyness levels.
I believe very few gemologists even consider transparency when they examine a diamond. They just loupe and look for inclusions, grade the color and report the table size. Some go looking for facet alignment. Very few really observe well.

 

[diagem]

DiaGem Venus is the source of most of the stones.
They are the only company I know of who provide this service (they also run the best lab in the world IMO).

Then what is their system? Or is it proprietor's info?

They have a master stone set similar to color grading DiaGem

And in which lighting? The main problem which results in grading inconsistency is different light reactions.
Super subjective IMO.

DG I have used these stones at a few seminars asking appraisers and gemo's to examine them under a diamond light (fluoro tube and in shaded daylight. they have had a UV light source supplied and strangely many seemed more interested to play with the stones under UV than really learn to detect the milkyness levels.
I believe very few gemologists even consider transparency when they examine a diamond. They just loupe and look for inclusions, grade the color and report the table size. Some go looking for facet alignment. Very few really observe well.

I agree..., thats why you have plenty of milky GIA SI's through I1's (lightly included although not fully transparent)floating the common market.

Its a business!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

And in which lighting? The main problem which results in grading inconsistency is different light reactions.
Super subjective IMO.

DG I have used these stones at a few seminars asking appraisers and gemo's to examine them under a diamond light (fluoro tube and in shaded daylight. they have had a UV light source supplied and strangely many seemed more interested to play with the stones under UV than really learn to detect the milkyness levels.
I believe very few gemologists even consider transparency when they examine a diamond. They just loupe and look for inclusions, grade the color and report the table size. Some go looking for facet alignment. Very few really observe well.

I agree..., thats why you have plenty of milky GIA SI's through I1's (lightly included although not fully transparent)floating the common market.

Its a business!

Which is why I continually warn consumers and try to get the message through to the helpful educated enthusiasts here who very often guide new shoppers - never, never ever, try to find a VS eye clean SI2. The labs do not ever make that mistake - and you end up not getting what you paid for. No stone owner is going to sell a VS stone with paper that calls it an SI2 grade.

 

[diagem]

No stone owner is going to sell a VS stone with paper that calls it an SI2 grade.

Common sense..., no??

 

[Regular Guy]

Not entirely sure I'm following this discussion exactly, and I think a continuum is being discussed.

But, Yoram, certainly eye clean SI diamonds are discussed and being sought after all the time. Definitely including SI2.

With respect to the narrow topic of avoiding SIs with at least some clouds (= milkiness?), because of effects on light performance, Garry has been front and center on this for some time, and some have criticized him as scaring shoppers off unnecessarily.

Ira Z.

 

[diagem]

Not entirely sure I'm following this discussion exactly, and I think a continuum is being discussed.

But, Yoram, certainly eye clean SI diamonds are discussed and being sought after all the time. Definitely including SI2.

With respect to the narrow topic of avoiding SIs with at least some clouds (= milkiness?), because of effects on light performance, Garry has been front and center on this for some time, and some have criticized him as scaring shoppers off unnecessarily.

Ira Z.

If I understand you correct...., there is a difference between eyeclean (faceup) SI and a VS clarity with an SI grading report...

 

[Regular Guy]

I remember an incredibly milky 1carat stone I saw one time- it was free of carbon and crystals...

Not sure. I would presume VS is defined specifically consistent with inclusions. And that the language used here..."milky"....may leave some question as to the cause?

Ira Z.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

DG I have used these stones at a few seminars asking appraisers and gemo's to examine them under a diamond light (fluoro tube and in shaded daylight. they have had a UV light source supplied and strangely many seemed more interested to play with the stones under UV than really learn to detect the milkyness levels.
I believe very few gemologists even consider transparency when they examine a diamond. They just loupe and look for inclusions, grade the color and report the table size. Some go looking for facet alignment. Very few really observe well.

Garry,

It is no surprise and nothing new that when you give a few diamonds to a random group of professionals to study, that they seem to pay most attention to the least important aspects.

You have been on the forefront of examining cut-quality, but still 90% or more of all trades-people judge cut-quality at the same time that they are trying to assess clarity, with very often the stone being lit from the back.

But now, you seem to be infering that a cloud in a stone graded SI always creates a milky effect as in your original picture. That sounds seriously exaggerated to me, I fear.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

But now, you seem to be infering that a cloud in a stone graded SI always creates a milky effect as in your original picture. That sounds seriously exaggerated to me, I fear.

Live long,

I didnt read it as you did Paul.
I read it (and as per my experience) as there are basically two possibilities;

a) a stone is graded SI and possesses inclusions & a cloud of which the inclusion is the grade setting factor.
b) a stone which is free of eyevisible inclusions but possesses significant cloud'iness which is the grade setting factor.

I have seen plenty of both floating around....

 

[Rockdiamond]

I don't recall seeing a lot of stones GIA graded SI1 or Si2 that exhibited milkiness that was cloudy from girdle to girdle.
Has anyone seen a lot of GIA graded SI stones that showed pervasive cloudiness?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I don't recall seeing a lot of stones GIA graded SI1 or Si2 that exhibited milkiness that was cloudy from girdle to girdle.
Has anyone seen a lot of GIA graded SI stones that showed pervasive cloudiness?

Yes, I have.

What Yoram and I agree on is there are stones which would be VS or even Flawless that recieve an SI grade. They are eye clean.
But they are cloudy.
Yoram I have not seen a lot, but they should 'float around' because no one should buy them. They are dogs.

 

[diagem]

I don't recall seeing a lot of stones GIA graded SI1 or Si2 that exhibited milkiness that was cloudy from girdle to girdle.
Has anyone seen a lot of GIA graded SI stones that showed pervasive cloudiness?

Yes, I have.

What Yoram and I agree on is there are stones which would be VS or even Flawless that recieve an SI grade. They are eye clean.
But they are cloudy.
Yoram I have not seen a lot, but they should 'float around' because no one should buy them. They are dogs.

With the direction the industry is moving, a lot of wholesalers are finding themselves in an unwanted war of existence.
Prices are moving (rather fast) forward and it is becoming a specialized market cutting loads of wholesalers that dont (or dont know how to) add value to the Diamonds they were used to dealing in. Diamond centers are full of dealers that used to earn their living simply trading hands within the centers. And IMO that sort of business (non-added value trading) is History.

Because of these (and other) reasons, dealers find loopholes within the mass, as one example; these milky Diamonds surface into the market regularly (part of the nature of mass-production) and are marketed by the manufacturers at very low prices as most dealers dont want to invest capital in them. Then you find dealers that do purchase them in large lots and simply submit them to labs for grading. The results of these movements allow a constant flow of milky (usually higher colored material) GIA et-al graded Diamonds into a market that got used to trade in papers (eg Lab Reports) more than in the Diamonds themselves...

Rapid changes are transforming our industry..., naturally dealers will attempt everything in their powers to survive.
Milky Diamond have a place in the industry at the right value, De Grisogono made a fortune setting them (and black Diamonds) in his designs, but having a retailer selling a milky G-SI1 Diamond as a regular transparent G-SI1 Diamond is simply unjust.

Thats where I cant help but think Lab's should play a more responsible role when grading these.

I agree Garry..., transparency should become a grading factor with Lab's.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree with a lot of what Yoram wrote. It's extremely difficult for a lot of businesses that used to simply "flip" goods to survive today.
It's very true that to survive today, a cutter, or a dealer must have a lot of "value added" to the stones to compete with the low margin list sellers.
Another aspect of this is that the cutters end up owning a lot of less desirable stones, as the better looking ones get sold to dealers.


Still, I don't find that milky stones are prevalent here in NYC, in either dealer's or cutter's inventories. At least not a lot of such stones with GIA reports.
I'm sure if I asked for $500 four grainers ( one carat sizes) I'd see a lot more.

I'll be keeping an eye open for such stones now that you put a bug in my ear Garry

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I agree with a lot of what Yoram wrote. It's extremely difficult for a lot of businesses that used to simply "flip" goods to survive today.
It's very true that to survive today, a cutter, or a dealer must have a lot of "value added" to the stones to compete with the low margin list sellers.
Another aspect of this is that the cutters end up owning a lot of less desirable stones, as the better looking ones get sold to dealers.


Still, I don't find that milky stones are prevalent here in NYC, in either dealer's or cutter's inventories. At least not a lot of such stones with GIA reports.
I'm sure if I asked for $500 four grainers ( one carat sizes) I'd see a lot more.

I'll be keeping an eye open for such stones now that you put a bug in my ear Garry

Without speaking for yoram, I think he is saying the opposite.
There are far more rounds with GIA paper being flipped now than ever before.
I suspect a lot of these stones are winding up in less mature markets, or being sold to unsuspecting people on the web.

I think anytime a consumer on this board mentions they find an eye clean SI2 that we should strongly urge them to use an expert appraiser.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree with the fact a lot of stones are now flipped based on info off GIA reports, as opposed to someone showing the stone to someone else , who subsequently purchases it.
Part of Yoram's post that I agreed with was that there's far less people with the ability to "flip" stones nowadays.
The internet has killed the business for a lot of sellers- mainly because those stones are now sold off websites accessing lists of goods in cutter's inventories.
So, more stones are flipped nowadays, before the buyer has seen them, but by less sellers overall- that would include a lot of B&M sellers that used to move a lot of goods, and now do not.

Buying SI2's sight unseen is a huge risk, we agree.

 

[diagem]

Another aspect of this is that the cutters end up owning a lot of less desirable stones, as the better looking ones get sold to dealers.


Still, I don't find that milky stones are prevalent here in NYC, in either dealer's or cutter's inventories. At least not a lot of such stones with GIA reports.

For mass producers its a non-issue...
For small to medium producers its a matter of staying in business or go bust!

I am a cutter and I dont own one Diamond (rough or polished) that I am sorry I own..., well maybe one .

Bottom line..., you dont want to sit on undesired goods in this environment.

RD, I would strongly suggest for you to take a tour in Mumbai or/and in Surat and you will be shocked at their assortments (in general) in low quality goods..., its out of this world! If you have not seen it you dont understand their power!

Its worth a trip just for the educational aspect!

 

[Rockdiamond]

If you're coming along as a tour guide Yoram, I'm in!!

Seriously - if I was to wade through tonnage of goods at some of the Indian firms that have offices here in NYC, I'm sure I'd see the tip of that iceberg which is so prevalent in Mumbai.
Overall, cutting in India has certainly improved over the past 20 years- but without question, I have seen a lot of cloudy stones when viewing Indian diamond cutters inventories.

As for your inventory- of course a small to medium sized company, having a lot of unsaleable goods is like an ankle weight- in todays; market a fatal flaw.
I know that what you have is indeed, desirable.
I'm pretty lucky in that regard as well- for the most part , I love what I buy....

 

[diagem]

If you're coming along as a tour guide Yoram, I'm in!!

I would much rather take Garry as a guide

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

http://www.google.com.au/images?hl=...gle+guide&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Its rough and tough, and we take no prisoners