How to buy from over the water

[Manks]

Hi there

I live in the UK and am very tempted by the good deals I can get on stones in the US. Trouble is, flying over for one stone seems impractical, so it would be good to be able to to it all by post.

Can anyone suggest a good process for buying a stone from one of the Internet dealers and having it shipped. I ask for a "good process" because I need someone to physically inspect the stone and confirm that it behaves in the way I expect it to, given its dimensions on paper.

I also need to understand your sales tax system.

I THINK that, technically, I get to buy without tax, but that I have to pay import duty and Value Added Tax at this end. Perhaps someone could confirm this, if they have any experience of the game.

Many thanks

Manks

 

[chris-uk04]

Flying actually might be more cost effective. I'm in the UK now and was going to have my ring shipped to me from the US, but I then remembered the British love of taxes. If you import your ring from the US you are likely to face 17.5% VAT + about 5% customs duties.... so you are looking at 22.5%. If your ring is more than $4000, it'd be cheaper to fly.

Interstate Internet sales in the States aren't taxed (yet). So if you buy a diamond from a company in New York over the internet and you live in any other state than New York, you won't get taxed. Similarly, if you bought overseas, you shouldn't have to pay sales tax, but then you have to worry about British taxes. However, it would be best to ask the prospective jeweler.


(Btw, VAT is value added tax or sales tax for any confused Americans. can any American image a 17.5% sales tax?)

 

[Stephan]

You can buy in Europe, at the same price.
Look at this link.

 

[Manks]

Stephan

Yes, but you still have to pay UK tax I believe.

Manks

 

[Stephan]

I don't think so.
You can allways make a 1-2 day trip in Belgium.
E-mail to Paul, he will answer you.

 

[Manks]

Stephan

Its a thought.

Do you know though, I have heard some reports that buying from Antwerp is not that safe a bet for the inexperienced - and I am inexperienced. My understanding is that its more difficult to get fleeced in the US. Not saying that your friend is dishonest in any way, just Antwerp's reputation with some people.

Manks

 

[wallace]

Hi -

As far as I understand, even if you fly your stone to England in person, you cannot avoid taxes as you will still be entering the country with the stone. If you do not declare the stone - you face more trouble than VAT!

The advantage of flying here is that you will be able to see a larger variety of stones at once. You could stay in NYC, for example, and buy from a dealer in NJ - he can ship the stone to you in another state before you leave to avoid local sales tax here. Or just order from the internet directly, no tax, and have the particular stones you are interested in FedExed to you wherever you are staying - for your approval.

YOu will have to determine, depending on how much you want to spend for your stone, which route is more cost-effective - current currency exchange rate, shipping fees with hefty insurance to and from UK with included customs headaches and import duties (payable even if the stone is returned). It might be too much of a hassle for a smaller stone- but in the end it might just be to fly here since the prices are so low.

Unless you buy in the duty-free shop - you still have to bring that puppy back onto English soil! CUSTOMS.

Doesn't one of the dealers here work in BE, too?

 

[bears rock]

What about this for a suggestion?

Arrange for the stone to be set in a cheap or whatever setting. Fly with your fiancee/partner to New York for the weekend then propose or whatever and give her the ring and you both walk back thru Customs green channel.

Of course your fiancee etc will then be your partner in crime but maybe it would be romantic - at least proposing in New York would be!

 

[fire&ice]

Paul in Antwrep, a poster here on PS, is affinity diamonds & if you do a search Stephan has just had Paul cut a 3 carat stone for him. Worth checking out.

Just a thought, you could have the diamond set in an antique (prior to 1904) setting & thus declaring an antique. Some people just wear the diamond through customs.

 

[wallace]

F&I - Yes, but you just do not want to get caught!!! (I hate to admit experience) - heads up - the end of the month is the worst time to travel with "items" as the douane has a quota to reach and will be looking extra hard.... and you never heard it from me!

Funny how only a few years ago we used to have do the same, but fly to Europe, in order to get good prices. I enjoy irony.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/15/2004 10:04:08 AM wallace wrote:

F&I - Yes, but you just do not want to get caught!!! (I hate to admit experience) - heads up - the end of the month is the worst time to travel with 'items' as the douane has a quota to reach and will be looking extra hard.... and you never heard it from me!

Funny how only a few years ago we used to have do the same, but fly to Europe, in order to get good prices. I enjoy irony.----------------

I know that Wallace. I just said *some* people do.

The exchange rate here is so favorable to Manks that it's worth the trip. I'm speakin out of the side of my mouth - but, if he bought the ring in the US, proposed to the girl - the ring is now hers - wouldn't that technically void having to go through declaration?

I have taken jewelry through customs. I've never been stopped, especially if I am wearing it. I can say that I do have the paperwork stating an item is 100 years old, just in case.

 

[niceice]

We ship three to four packages per week to the U.K., the process is simple enough. Any vendor can ship a selected diamond for you via Fed Ex international priority service. Trying to avoid the U.K. tax is tempting, but the legal repercussions of doing so if you get caught are not worth the potential savings - we're only talking about 17% and you're still going to save substantially over what a comparable diamond would cost you in the U.K.

Not directed at anybody in particular, just a general statement:
It always amuses us that people expect honesty from the vendors here on PS, but so many people are willing to break the law when it comes to paying specific excise taxes... People ask us all the time to issue their sales receipt for an amount less than they are actually paying for a diamond so that they can pay less in tax, it seems to us that IF we were willing to do that, we'd be willing to bend the rules on other things like the selection of our diamonds... Please don't suggest that, or ask people to break the law when you expect them to have integrity in the rest of their dealings with you and expect that integrity to be "real".

 

[GratefulReader]

Someone mentioned that if you do interstate commerce, you don't need to pay state taxes.

You're not required to pay sales tax at time of purchase.
But when you do your taxes, you're "supposed" to declare it on your state tax form.

It's called a "Use Tax". True that most people don't know about it, and few states "enforce" it, but technically you're supposed to pay.
(Someone correct me here if Im wrong!!)

So you know that $12.99 book you bought tax free from Amazon.com?
Technically you need to declare a 9 cents on your tax return.
Probably about 5% of the people who do internet shopping has ever heard of one. And Im guessing about 0.1% of the people really pay it.

Anyone else heard of this?

 

[limey]

Use tax varies state to state. We have it in Michigan. If you do not itemize out-of-state purchases you are supposed to pay a minimum.

 

[wallace]

Hi - F&I - yes, sorry, you did say "some"!

I merely wnated to be remindful of the risks, no matter how infrequently problems occur, the risk is very real.

Technically, the fact that she is wearing the ring does not void the duty to declare. In the US by law, they cannot remove jewlery from your person, i.e. confiscate the property you are wearing, but they can still charge you and investigate. That is, if one states that they have receipts or proof of antiquity, it will have to be submitted to the gov. and duties paid even if you leave the airport wearing that same questioned property. I do not know the laws regarding this scenario entering England.

One would be wise to carry provenance documents on them while traveling with newly acquired antique pieces - but if the document does not account for the stone, one is at risk for not having declared the stone itself. It is easier to pay VAT and be free! As Nice Ice states - for what you save, its worth it. Same as we used to do buying in Europe - becuase we were exempt from VAT we could pay the customs duty on the way home and still save...

It would be unlikely for level of scrutiny - It's just not impossible - all it takes is one guy who had his coffee!

I have been stopped wearing jewelry - new and old (I seem to fit a profile)! Maybe One of the attorneys is more up to date on the current laws but that was the law ten years ago. You're lucky!

GR - thanks for the reminder - I am so used to automatically paying tax - I forgot that it was optional at the time of purchase! I made the interstate commerce suggestion - please excuse me for not being clear! Good reminder.

NiceIce - Excellent point. This thread does point out a critical difference between how save the most money and how to spend the least amount.

Anyway - I did not mean to stir the pot - just a reminder!

I still think it is a great idea for you to come here to save money - I just cannot suggest a legit way to avoid VAT. Like I said, it seems you will just have to decide which option is more economically viable according to what you seek to buy.Good Luck!

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/15/2004 4:30:42 PM wallace wrote:

Hi - F&I - yes, sorry, you did say 'some'!

I merely wnated to be remindful of the risks, no matter how infrequently problems occur, the risk is very real.

Technically, the fact that she is wearing the ring does not void the duty to declare! ----------------

Yes, one should be prepared for the risks. I think the technicality here isn't the fact she is simply wearing the ring. It was a gift given to her in the states. I don't know for sure; but, it makes some sense.

I probably did not make myself clear. I buy/sell/collect jewelry from the turn of the century. Britain is a hotbed for picking. I've never had a problem. Never been asked even though I have the appropriate paper work. I know if I sell to a Brit. I must write a ca. date on the receipt. American stuff is nearly impossible to prove age within a certain time period. We never hallmarked our stuff for date.

Another thing, talking out loud again, I would be interested in a definitive answer about the stone set in an antique setting. It has been my experience that the gems aren't an issue. It is the "whole" piece. If one imports furniture from UK and the drawers have been replaced with new, it's still considered old.

I'm not trying to break the law. But, I do feel like there are ways to be more accomodating. Hey, it's tax day - We need a loophole!

 

[wallace]

Oh - I know your not trying to break the law!! I know you're in the business and I really value your experience! I do not know what may be different about individuals and business importation. It so interesting what some of these scenarios bring up... all this info. serves to protect, too becuase sometimes someone may not know they are infringing...

I like your analogy about the drawers. But a drawer has no individual value like the stone. I will call my customs attorney to ask him this scenario because it is interesting to see if they would identify the stone as a separate declasrable item if it is not included in the statement of the setting = it may be one piece but if the setting doc's describe and value the setting alone then the stone would be a saparate issue... I'll PM you when I find out - if you're interested...

But, a gift is a gift! GOtta declasre gifts, too - I know that fer sure - that was my Achilles heel!

Tax day!!!! Yuck!

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/15/2004 5:06:05 PM wallace wrote:

But, a gift is a gift! GOtta declasre gifts, too - I know that fer sure - that was my Achilles heel!

Tax day!!!! Yuck!----------------

Doncha think there is something wrong with that. I mean someone gives you a gift & *you* have to pay duty on it. I'm really surprised that you had an unfortuante incident. Quite frankly, customs seem more concerned about agriculture entering in and out of the country. Also, drugs. I've never been stopped. I must not be their profile.

And, yeah, I would be interested in the antique setting/ring thing.

 

[niceice]

Customs Agents are idiots... That is our "official opinion" and we've told it to them many times over... The latest delay with our packages seems to stem from their misunderstanding of the Kimberly Diamond Act which applies only to rough, uncut diamonds. We'll get these phone calls from the various customs agencies asking for a Kimberly Certificate for the diamond we've sent over and we respond by telling them that there is no certificate becasue the package contains a polished diamond and thus the K.D.A. is not applicable and they will insist that we're wrong... So we fax them over a copy of the description of the K.D.A. from the Jewelers Vigilance Committee web site and then they say "oh" and let the package go through... Recently we told a customs agent who wanted to open up one of our boxes to verify the contents "This is ridiculous! You have no understanding of the law... First off, the K.D.A. applies to rough, uncut diamonds which this clearly isn't since it is accompanied by a diamond grading report from the GIA which we provide you with a copy of in the customs packet attached to the outside of the box along with a copy of our sales receipt and a copy of the K.D.A. guidelines as described by the J.V.C. but what we really want to know is do you really think that the Al Quida (sp?) is getting rich off of sending a single diamond through Fed Ex and 'declaring' the contents? How freaking stupid are you?!?! According to our Fed Ex security representative they seize about a zillion packages a year that contain undeclared cash and drugs... Those are the packages that you should be looking for, they're not declared as diamonds... Besides that, why do you need to open the package? Didn't we just pay a couple of Billion dollars in taxes to buy you people G-D--- x-ray machines? Like the diamond won't show up in the x-ray, but you can sure as sh-t figure out that it's not contraband!" and not quite being satisfied we woke our Fed Ex security representative up at home and said "here you deal with these idiots" and thirty minutes later our package was sailing through customs

 

[wallace]

Customs Regulations - entering the US -

Shipping -http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/import/infrequent_importer_info/internet_purchases.xml

Basically, any item shipped over 2,000.00 enters as an import.
Examples on jewlery used in the link.

Personal entry - Antiques
http://www.cbp.gov/ImageCache/cgov/content/laws/informed_5fcompliance_5fregs/icp061_2epdf/v1/icp061.pdf
Harmonized Commodity and Description Encoding System
Chapter 97 - "However, Chapter 97 does not include...
Harmonized Tariff Schedule -
"1. c. This article does not cover pearls, natural or cultured, or precious or semi-precious stones (7101-7103)".

ANTIQUES - Article 9706 -
"Antiques are classified under the heading 9706. in oreder to qualify as an antique for Customs purposes, the article must be over 100 years of age at the time of importation. Whenever the article is entered for sale under heading 9706, and later determined not be over 100 years of age, a duty of 6.6 percent ad valorem for articles subject to culumn one- general treatment, free of duty for goods origingating in the territory of Canada or a duty of 25 percent ad valorem for articles sunject to column 2 treatment will be assessed in addition to any other duty or penalty imposed on that article under the tariff
schedule. Normally, theatrical scenery, studio backdrops or the like, of painted canvas must be classified under the heading 5907, not chapter 97. However, if such items are over 100 years old, they are classifiable under this provision. Articles, such as original paintings (9701), engravings (9702), or sculptures (9703), and stamps or collections (9704 and 9705) and precious or semi-precious stones (7103) are not classifiable under heading 9706, even if over 100 years old.

Provided they retain their original character, the heading includes antique articles that have been repaired or restored. For example, the heading includes antique furniture incorporating parts of modern furniture. However, if the essential character is changed, or more than 50% of the item has been repaired or restoredthe item is no longer considered an antique and is subject to duty".

 

[wallace]

Heading 9602 -
"By definiton, this article does not include...articles of jewelry and parts thereof precious metal or metal clad with precious metal of heading 7113 or of imitation jewlery of heading 7117".


CHAPTER 6810 - Stone and Agglomerated Stone -
"Merchandise generally classified under Heading 9602 [Antique Items] generally consists of... when precious or semi-precious metal, perals, or precious or semi-precious stones constitute more than minor constituents the merchandise must be classified in Chapter 71, not Heading 9602". That is, despite its age.


Thus, an item comprised wholly of precious, semi-precious stones, metal, pearls (cultured and uncultured) - as is most jewlery - cannot be declared, despite its age, as anything but under the provisions of Chapter 71 - Jewlery. Imititation jewlery is also covered in Chapter 71. Jewlery not made of the listed items will fall under imitation jewlery (see article 7117 - definition of imitation jewlery) by virtue of the dfiniton of jewlery:

CHAPTER 71 - Articles of Wax, Artificial Stone, and Jewelry
http://www.cbp.gov/ImageCache/cgov/content/laws/informed_5fcompliance_5fregs/icp016_2epdf/v2/icp016.pdf
"For the purposes of Heading 7113, the expression "articles of jewlery" means:(a)any small object of personal adornment, for example, rings, bracelets, necklaces, brooches, earrings, watch chains, fobs, pendants, tie pins, cuff links, dress studs, religious or other medals and insignia.
(b)articles of personal use of a kind normally carried in the pocket, in the handbag, or on the person such as cigarette cases, powder boxes, chain purses, or pill boxes.




This is a very important document for any American traveling to read!!! It details the IMPORTER'S RESPONIBILITIES, i.e. what information excactly should be provided and how.

Thus, in short, antique jewlery cannot be declared as antique even if it is over 100 years old. That has been my experience with antique jewlery, too. Obviously, this depends on the particular agent you get, if he cares of knows... that is a personal choice. Metal and stones do not count as antique.

 

[wallace]

What You Must Declare:
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/leavingarrivinginUS/vacation/know_brochure/declare.xml

You Must Declare
Items you purchased and are carrying with you upon return to the United States.
-Items you received as gifts, such as wedding or birthday presents.
-Items you inherited.
-Items you bought in duty-free shops or on the ship or plane.
-Repairs or alterations to any items you took abroad and then brought back, even if the repairs/alterations were performed free of charge.
-Items you brought home for someone else.
-Items you intend to sell or use in your business.
-Items you acquired (whether purchased or received as gifts) in the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, or in a Caribbean Basin Economic Recovery Act country (please see section on $600 exemption for a list of these countries) that are not in your possession when you return. In other words, if you acquired things in any of these island nations and asked the merchant to send them to you, you must still declare them when you go through Customs. (This differs from the usual procedure for mailed items, which is discussed in the section on Sending Goods to the United States.

You must state on the Customs declaration, in United States currency, what you actually paid for each item. The price must include all taxes. If you did not buy the item yourself - for example, if it is a gift - get an estimate of its fair retail value in the country where you received it. If you bought something on your trip and wore or used it on the trip, it's still dutiable. You must declare the item at the price you paid or, if it was a gift, at its fair market value.

 

[wallace]

DUTY-FREE EXEMPTIONS Gifts:
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/leavingarrivinginUS/vacation/know_brochure/dutyfree_exemption.xml

Gifts you bring back from a trip abroad are considered to be for your personal use. They must be declared, but you may include them in your personal exemption. This includes gifts people gave you while you were out of the country, such as wedding or birthday presents,and gifts you've brought back for others.

Gifts intended for business, promotional, or other commercial purposes may not be included in your duty-free exemption.

Gifts worth up to $100 may be received, free of duty and tax, by friends and relatives in the United States, as long as the same person does not receive more than $100 worth of gifts in a single day. If the gifts are mailed or shipped from an insular possession, this amount is increased to $200. When you return to the United States, you don't have to declare gifts you sent while you were on your trip, since they won't be accompanying you.


By federal law, alcoholic beverages, tobacco products, and perfume containing alcohol and worth more than $5 retail may not be included in the gift exemption.


Gifts for more than one person may be shipped in the same package, called a consolidated gift package, if they are individually wrapped and labeled with each recipient's name. Here's how to wrap and label a consolidated gift package:


Be sure to mark the outermost wrapper with:

the words "UNSOLICITED GIFT" and the words "CONSOLIDATED GIFT PACKAGE";
the total value of the consolidated package;
the recipients' names; and
the nature and value of the gifts inside (for example, tennis shoes, $50; shirt, $45; toy car, $15).

Packages marked in this way will clear Customs much more easily. Here's an example of how to mark a consolidated gift package:Unsolicited gift-consolidated gift package- total value $135
To John Jones-one belt, $20; one box of candy, $5; one tie, $20
To Mary Smith-one skirt, $45; one belt, $15; one pair slacks, $30.
If any item in the consolidated gift parcel is subject to duty and tax or worth more than the $100 gift allowance, the entire package will be dutiable.


You, as a traveler, cannot send a "gift" package to yourself, and people traveling together cannot send "gifts" to each other. But there would be no reason to do that anyway, because the personal exemption for packages mailed from abroad is $200, which is twice as much as the gift exemption. If a package is subject to duty, the United States Postal Service will collect it from the addressee along with any postage and handling charges. The sender cannot prepay duty; it must be paid by the recipient when the package is received in the United States. (Packages sent by courier services are not eligible for this duty waiver.)


For more information about mailing packages to the United States, please contact your nearest Customs office and ask for our pamphlet International Mail Imports.

 

[wallace]

Duty-free Exemption
(same link as above)

The duty-free exemption, also called the personal exemption, is the total value of merchandise you may bring back to the United States without having to pay duty. You may bring back more than your exemption, but you will have to pay duty on it. In most cases, the personal exemption is $800, but there are some exceptions to this rule, which are explained below.


Exemptions
Depending on the countries you have visited, your personal exemption will be $600, $800, or $1,200. (The differences are explained in the following section.) There are also limits on the amount of alcoholic beverages, cigarettes, cigars, and other tobacco products you may include in your duty-free personal exemption.

 

[wallace]

In short, if one is traveling form Europe or England with jewlery, antique or not, it must be declared - gift or not - and is only duty-free to the value of $800.00 If one is traveling with a spouse or children, then the family exemption can help one bring in more valuable items by sharing the individual allotment.

This information, in fact, renders our question moot! I guess I did not notice about the antique pieces I brought in becuase after my skirmish with Customs, I over-declared! THere is one antique pair of earrings that I now remember preparing to bring in - and the jewler explained this to me - and then at the last minute we brought the earrings to Europe and they stayed there. That was my only exposure to antiques before I started over-declaring. It's just good to be aware to the policies.

I have confirmed this with US Customs Information. THe only way to protect yourself from having your own jewelry that belonged to you before you left the country not taxed and possibly seized is to register it with US Customs - otherwise, if asked, you have no way to prove that it was not purhcased abroad:

Register Items Before You Leave the United States
"If your laptop computer was made in Japan - for instance - you might have to pay duty on it each time you bring it back into the United States, unless you could prove that you owned it before you left on your trip. Documents that fully describe the item - for example, sales receipts, insurance policies, or jeweler's appraisals - are acceptable forms of proof. To make things easier, you can register certain items with Customs before you depart - including watches, cameras, laptop computers, firearms, and tape recorders - as long as they have serial numbers or other unique, permanent markings. Take the items to the nearest Customs Office and request a Certificate of Registration (Customs Form 4457). It shows Customs that you had the items with you before leaving the U.S. and all items listed on it will be allowed duty-free entry. Customs inspectors must see the item you are registering in order to certify the certificate of registration. You can register items with Customs at the international airport from which you're departing. Keep the certificate for future trips".

In most cases, this is nothing to worry about - but especially with heightened security and travelling with electronics - it could make one's life a lot easier! Unless one wants to carry one's jewlery or insurance receipts with them when travelling (NO WAY!) then this is the best thing to do to protect oneself and one's persoanl belongings - the tax has already been paid!

(I use the cumbersome form of "one" beucase for some reason, although common in colloquail usage, when I write "you" on this forum, someone invariably percieves it, mistakenly, to be directed at them. I find this strange since it is a forum).