How important are The Numbers on colored diamonds?

[Dee*Jay]

*** I accidentally started a thread on this in Hangout, but it obviously belongs over here. Sorry for the double thread! ***


I want to make sure I''m going down the "yellow brick road" in the right frame of mind. How important are The Numbers when it comes to yellow diamonds?

For instance, there is a radiant stone available to me with a 66.4 depth and a 74 table. That seems *bad* just in looking at David''s cut grade chart, and if it were a colorless stone I''d run from this thing like the hounds from hell were snapping at my heels, but maybe I''m missing the boat here with a colored stone...

So, to what degree do I need to worry about the cut specs along with all of the other myriad of factors that go into selecting a yellow diamond?

Any advice here will be much appreciated!

 

[JohnQuixote]

You're on the right track. The goal with these stones is to entrap and exaggerate body color. This can be accomplished by leaking light & bouncing color back into the center of the stone, so they're often cut to configurations we'd consider too steep or shallow for diamonds in the D-Z scale.

 

[Dee*Jay]

John, thanks for replying! So in a light fancy yellow radiant a 74% table may still be considered "acceptable" (depending of course on how other things play out)? I guess I don''t understand how a large v. small table *works* on a colored diamond.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/10/2007 11:00:32 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
You''re on the right track. The goal with these stones is to entrap and exaggerate body color. This can be accomplished by leaking light & bouncing color back into the center of the stone, so they''re often cut to configurations we''d consider too steep or shallow for diamonds in the D-Z scale.

it is my understanding that dee jay is looking in the d-z scale, just under Q...

While I understand the desire to enhance the color, I still think a light yellow stone cut for fire would be really beautiful LIke a modern cushion (not a modified) cut for white light return but then in a lovely u/v shade Oops, I''m on my OWN fantasy here... hehe sorry dee jay!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 5/10/2007 11:02:49 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
John, thanks for replying! So in a light fancy yellow radiant a 74% table may still be considered 'acceptable' (depending of course on how other things play out)? I guess I don't understand how a large v. small table *works* on a colored diamond.

It's more about angles and how the total configuration combines to entrap color. A smaller table might entrap more color but, like fancy shapes, numbers are nearly useless with fancy colored stones. They must be seen to be assessed. Diamonds of the same color can have different properties. To that end, I hope you don't mind a question Dee*Jay: Do you have a specific reason for seeking fancy light yellow? It's kind of a pseudo-color (not quite D-Z and not quite fancy).

I'd encourage you to consider moving to fancy yellow unless you have a specific reason for FLY.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Sara, I *thought* was looking in the W/X, Y/Z range, but a lot of the options that are coming to me are go into the fancy category. The one that I''m thinking of in particular is a "light yellow" according to GIA, so a little darker than the just-under-Zs that I started out with.

 

[Dee*Jay]

John, I was trying to do two things: 1. avoid the premium price that goes along with the fancy label, and 2. get a diamond that is really very light yellow because with my skintone (and I blame my Irish ancesters for this!) the deeper yellow don't look very nice on my skin.

One more question since I've got ya! How does fluorescence impact yellow diamonds? For instance, I came across a fancy light yellow but with strong blue fluorescence. Wouldn't that make it looking kinda "green"? Would it wash out the color to just make it less yellow? And in what lighting conditions would the fluorescence be most noticeable?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 5/10/2007 11:18:59 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
John, I was trying to do two things: 1. avoid the premium price that goes along with the fancy label, and 2. get a diamond that is really very light yellow because with my skintone (and I blame my Irish ancesters for this!) the deeper yellow don't look very nice on my skin.

One more question since I've got ya! How does fluorescence impact yellow diamonds? For instance, I came across a fancy light yellow but with strong blue fluorescence. Wouldn't that make it looking kinda 'green'? Would it wash out the color to just make it less yellow? And in what lighting conditions would the fluorescence be most noticeable?

I understand both #1 and #2 completely. Spoken like a true Pricescoper!

Just remember that diamond cutters are clever.They will send a diamond for the best paper it can possibly get to make a profit, so the most attractive colored diamonds will often be submitted for grading as ‘fancies,’ not as dark cape colors (S-Z).

The answer on the fluor question is...yes...no...maybe…

Here again, with just about any aspect we apply to white stones we can’t do the same with fancy colors.Blue fluorescence of med+ strength may influence what you see in a yellow diamond but it will appear differently depending on how strong the fluorescence is measured against the specific balance of hue, tone & saturation and the lighting the diamond is in.Under UV it could be pretty radical - or nothing much to talk about at all.Strong yellow fluorescence in a yellow diamond may help its intensity but, again, it depends on the mix of ingredients nature cooked up in that specific stone over millions of years of formation.They are like snowflakes.

Depending on how specific you want to be I suggest you have an expert assist you; one who has his/her hand in the pond.Ideally you can communicate precisely what you’re looking for (tone, intensity, etc) and he/she will have the resources to pull in enough diamonds with the appropriate report that you get a winner which matches your vision (and your skin tone).

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 5/10/2007 11:18:59 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
John, I was trying to do two things: 1. avoid the premium price that goes along with the fancy label, and 2. get a diamond that is really very light yellow because with my skintone (and I blame my Irish ancesters for this!) the deeper yellow don''t look very nice on my skin.

One more question since I''ve got ya! How does fluorescence impact yellow diamonds? For instance, I came across a fancy light yellow but with strong blue fluorescence. Wouldn''t that make it looking kinda ''green''? Would it wash out the color to just make it less yellow? And in what lighting conditions would the fluorescence be most noticeable?

DEE JAY

It''s a stone by stone call. POTENTIALLY if the FL is very visible in UV - POSSIBLY, but POSSIBLY NOT TOO as far as taking on a greenish color.

Cutters PRIMARILLY attempt to bring out the color in a fancy color diamond..... but THIS DOESN"T MEAN TO THROW PROPORTIONS "OUT THE WINDOW". It is still a diamond and liveliness, sparkle, dispersion color, brilliance would be considered when analyzing a stone too, rather than be ignored.

AS John wrote above the stone has to be SEEN!

If you want a very light yellow stone, look for XYZ colors. Those will be priced less if price is part of the mix. You''ll possibly get a bargain, but it still needs to be checked out. Just cause a grading report says it doesn''t have modifiying colors, you really need to check that. On that issue - I concur completely with Richard S.

Rockdoc

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/10/2007 11:56:31 PM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 5/10/2007 11:18:59 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
John, I was trying to do two things: 1. avoid the premium price that goes along with the fancy label, and 2. get a diamond that is really very light yellow because with my skintone (and I blame my Irish ancesters for this!) the deeper yellow don''t look very nice on my skin.

One more question since I''ve got ya! How does fluorescence impact yellow diamonds? For instance, I came across a fancy light yellow but with strong blue fluorescence. Wouldn''t that make it looking kinda ''green''? Would it wash out the color to just make it less yellow? And in what lighting conditions would the fluorescence be most noticeable?

DEE JAY

It''s a stone by stone call. POTENTIALLY if the FL is very visible in UV - POSSIBLY, but POSSIBLY NOT TOO as far as taking on a greenish color.

Cutters PRIMARILLY attempt to bring out the color in a fancy color diamond..... but THIS DOESN''T MEAN TO THROW PROPORTIONS ''OUT THE WINDOW''. It is still a diamond and liveliness, sparkle, dispersion color, brilliance would be considered when analyzing a stone too, rather than be ignored.

Exactly!!! Imagine two Fancy colored Diamonds of the same intensity/hue of a certain color..., Diamond A has proportions and a cut made to "capture" the color grade..., and Diamond B is cut to excellent proportions but still posseses the same color intensity/hue as Diamond A....

Diamond B will be worth perhaps twice or more than Diamond A. (even with the same weight/color/ clarity!!!)

AS John wrote above the stone has to be SEEN!

If you want a very light yellow stone, look for XYZ colors. Those will be priced less if price is part of the mix. You''ll possibly get a bargain, but it still needs to be checked out. Just cause a grading report says it doesn''t have modifiying colors, you really need to check that. On that issue - I concur completely with Richard S.

Rockdoc

 

[oldminer]

You''ve gotten some excellent advice here from a couple folks who know the subject. Craftsmanship does have a substantial effect on value, but there is no question with colored diamonds that first gaining intensity of color is extremely important in the process. You find wide differences in cut parameters and craftsmanship in colored diamonds because sometimes the right thing to do in accomplishing the best l;ook and best value don''t exactly fit into convenient zones of parametric design. It takes a lot of cutting knowledge to make many fancy colored diamonds beautiful. There are many tricks of cutting, nothing crooked, but technically demanding, which can be employed. This makes parametric screening of cut cut quality far more likely of benefit in coloress diamonds than in colored ones.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Thank you all very much for your replies!

One thing that I have noticed is that many of the stones that are offered to me in the yellow (either fancy or U-Z range) don''t even have table info (but they do provide a depth #). My feeling, based on what you''ve told me, is that that is not simply an oversite, but rather than the table number is not as relevant on a colored stone. Hmmm... an interesting concept.

I think the biggest problem I have getting my arms around all this is that I think (now) of diamonds first in terms of numbers and then in terms of my eyes*, but with fancies the eyeballs come first and then you might (or might not!) then consider the numbers.

(*BTW, I''m not saying this is the right way or the wrong way to evaluate a stone, it''s just that I''ve come to look at numbers now as a starting point and then go from there. I don''t automatically discount stones without "ideal" numbers though--as a matter of fact I own a non-ideal round that is stunning.)

It''s hard to teach an old dog new tricks!

 

[yellowsparkles]

Dee Jay,
Please keep us posted on your yellow quest. I am following it and I look forward to see what you end up buying. I bought my yellow stone pre-pricescope when I knew nothing about numbers. It was difficult finding a yellow fancy that had all the right criteria (color/cut/price). In my limited search though, most stones were radiant shaped. Even after looking at many many radiants, I still don''t know what is ideal. Anyway - I just wanted to wish you luck. Why are the Fancy colored stones so difficult to pin down?

 

[Dee*Jay]

In half an hour I''m heading over to the jewler who had the setting that I originally fell in love with because she was going to get at least one yellow stone in for me to look at. Hopefully she''ll actually have more than one and I can make some sort of comparison, which would be very educational for me. Of course I forgot my camera today...

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/11/2007 10:16:40 AM
Author: Dee*Jay
Thank you all very much for your replies!

One thing that I have noticed is that many of the stones that are offered to me in the yellow (either fancy or U-Z range) don''t even have table info (but they do provide a depth #). My feeling, based on what you''ve told me, is that that is not simply an oversite, but rather than the table number is not as relevant on a colored stone. Hmmm... an interesting concept.
In what I call ''cut for color'' diamonds..., the face-up effect comes from the pavilion..., the larger the table..., the more color you see.
Notice that the color on the crowns of these type of stones always seem of a lighter shade than the center of the stone.

In Diamonds with genuine body color... (stones that dont have to be trickly cut to capture color), the table will be a normal size and the whole stone will have the same body-color!!!

That is the difference!!! and it is a HUGE difference. But it all depends of you budget!!!

I think the biggest problem I have getting my arms around all this is that I think (now) of diamonds first in terms of numbers and then in terms of my eyes*, but with fancies the eyeballs come first and then you might (or might not!) then consider the numbers.


(*BTW, I''m not saying this is the right way or the wrong way to evaluate a stone, it''s just that I''ve come to look at numbers now as a starting point and then go from there. I don''t automatically discount stones without ''ideal'' numbers though--as a matter of fact I own a non-ideal round that is stunning.)

It''s hard to teach an old dog new tricks!

I never look at numbers as a starting point!!!

 

[elmo]

Date: 5/11/2007 10:16:40 AM
Author: Dee*Jay
One thing that I have noticed is that many of the stones that are offered to me in the yellow (either fancy or U-Z range) don''t even have table info (but they do provide a depth #).

One reason for this is when the stone has a color/identification-only report from the GIA which is fairly common for colored diamonds...even more common when the stone is inexpensive or when there is some issue with clarity

. Such a report lists the color and dimensions (depth can be determined). No table, clarity, etc., although I often see vendors list a clarity in their description which is their call not the GIA''s.

Definitely train and use your eyes. For me, a strong yellow diamond with real life and not just color is a particularly rare and beautiful thing.

 

[Dee*Jay]

I just went and looked at three stones.

One was an EGL L color (not even sure why they brought this in; it was far outside of the parameters I gave them... ) and even set in a yellow basket with yellow prongs it was not nearly yellow enough.

One was a fancy light yellow (as graded by Pro Gem Services, which I trust as much as GIA) but it had a brown modifying undertone and it was not a good color for me.

HOWEVER, there was one fancy light yellow (again, per PGS) that was GORGEOUS. It was a radiant 8 mm X 6.6 mm and I swear if it had been a *smidge* bigger I'd be wearing the thing right now!

This was a great bit of hands-on education and I'm so glad I got to see some things for real. Now I'm VERY excited about this project!

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/11/2007 2:38:40 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
I just went and looked at three stones.

One was an EGL L color (not even sure why they brought this in; it was far outside of the parameters I gave them... ) and even set in a yellow basket with yellow prongs it was not nearly yellow enough.

One was a fancy light yellow (as graded by Pro Gem Services, which I trust as much as GIA) but it had a brown modifying undertone and it was not a good color for me.

HOWEVER, there was one fancy light yellow (again, per PGS) that was GORGEOUS. It was a radiant 8 mm X 6.6 mm and I swear if it had been a *smidge* bigger I''d be wearing the thing right now!

This was a great bit of hands-on education and I''m so glad I got to see some things for real. Now I''m VERY excited about this project!

Who are they? Tell us some more on PGS...

 

[widget]

DJ...so glad you got to see some IRL. Now I''m getting excited, too! I''ve just subscribed to this thread so I won''t miss any of your process.

Yeah...who''s PGS???

widget

 

[Dee*Jay]

DiaGem, PGS runs what I think of as a very "techincal" operation. They are great with the scientific analysis of stones, although I wouldn't think of them as a warm fuzzy appraisal set-up. They can run you a sarin in no time flat, and take a stone and tell you everything about it (the good the bad and the ugly) in a very professional factual manner. Down on Wabash Street, I've had vendors offer to send a stone to GIA rather than take it up to PGS because PGS can be more strict than GIA in some instances.

I was at one point considering a stone with an EGL cert (not for this current mission, but another proejct I was working on a while ago). I told the seller the only way I would consider it was if they were willing to let me take it to PGS first. The seller flat out told me No Way--His exact works were "They are more stringent than GIA" and he had no interest in the transaction any longer.

Here is a 7/27/06 quote from Richard Sherwood, "Professional organization of high integrity with excellent grading standards." And I've also seen them referred to in favorable terms by other experts on this board.

Hopefully some other our other resident gurus will chime in and describe PGS's services because I'm not doing a very good job of it!


Oh no WIDGET--subscribed to the thread? Now the pressure's on for me to do something *fabulous*!

 

[widget]

Did you get a chance to sneak a picture of the mounting you fell in love with??

widget

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/11/2007 3:21:21 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
DiaGem, PGS runs what I think of as a very ''techincal'' operation. They are great with the scientific analysis of stones, although I wouldn''t think of them as a warm fuzzy appraisal set-up. They can run you a sarin in no time flat, and take a stone and tell you everything about it (the good the bad and the ugly) in a very professional factual manner. Down on Wabash Street, I''ve had vendors offer to send a stone to GIA rather than take it up to PGS because PGS can be more strict than GIA in some instances.

I was at one point considering a stone with an EGL cert (not for this current mission, but another proejct I was working on a while ago). I told the seller the only way I would consider it was if they were willing to let me take it to PGS first. The seller flat out told me No Way--His exact works were ''They are more stringent than GIA'' and he had no interest in the transaction any longer.

Here is a 7/27/06 quote from Richard Sherwood, ''Professional organization of high integrity with excellent grading standards.'' And I''ve also seen them referred to in favorable terms by other experts on this board.

Hopefully some other our other resident gurus will chime in and describe PGS''s services because I''m not doing a very good job of it!


Oh no WIDGET--subscribed to the thread? Now the pressure''s on for me to do something *fabulous*!

I realy never heard of them...
So I cant comment...

But "more stringent"...., doesnt mean anything!!!

 

[Dee*Jay]

Widget, of course being senile at 36 I forgot my damn camera this morning!

But it doesn''t matter anyway becuse I''ve seen the light and now I realize I''ll have to have something specially made for whatever stone I end up with. Who knows, maybe I can pick up a colored stone at the gem show in two weeks to put in that setting.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 5/11/2007 3:33:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/11/2007 3:21:21 PM

Author: Dee*Jay

DiaGem, PGS runs what I think of as a very ''techincal'' operation. They are great with the scientific analysis of stones, although I wouldn''t think of them as a warm fuzzy appraisal set-up. They can run you a sarin in no time flat, and take a stone and tell you everything about it (the good the bad and the ugly) in a very professional factual manner. Down on Wabash Street, I''ve had vendors offer to send a stone to GIA rather than take it up to PGS because PGS can be more strict than GIA in some instances.



I was at one point considering a stone with an EGL cert (not for this current mission, but another proejct I was working on a while ago). I told the seller the only way I would consider it was if they were willing to let me take it to PGS first. The seller flat out told me No Way--His exact works were ''They are more stringent than GIA'' and he had no interest in the transaction any longer.


Here is a 7/27/06 quote from Richard Sherwood, ''Professional organization of high integrity with excellent grading standards.'' And I''ve also seen them referred to in favorable terms by other experts on this board.


Hopefully some other our other resident gurus will chime in and describe PGS''s services because I''m not doing a very good job of it!



Oh no WIDGET--subscribed to the thread? Now the pressure''s on for me to do something *fabulous*!

I realy never heard of them...

So I cant comment...


But ''more stringent''...., doesnt mean anything!!!

DiaGem, you''re correct, and I didn''t mean to imply too much with that statement.

What I guess I''m really trying to convey is that if a stone has PGS paper, and since I am buying this item for my own personal use with no intention of trying to sell it in the future, I would be satisfied with a PGS opinion.

Sorry if my statement was not entirely accurate or didn''t get the right message across.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/11/2007 3:33:42 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/11/2007 3:21:21 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
DiaGem, PGS runs what I think of as a very ''techincal'' operation. They are great with the scientific analysis of stones, although I wouldn''t think of them as a warm fuzzy appraisal set-up. They can run you a sarin in no time flat, and take a stone and tell you everything about it (the good the bad and the ugly) in a very professional factual manner. Down on Wabash Street, I''ve had vendors offer to send a stone to GIA rather than take it up to PGS because PGS can be more strict than GIA in some instances.

I was at one point considering a stone with an EGL cert (not for this current mission, but another proejct I was working on a while ago). I told the seller the only way I would consider it was if they were willing to let me take it to PGS first. The seller flat out told me No Way--His exact works were ''They are more stringent than GIA'' and he had no interest in the transaction any longer.

Here is a 7/27/06 quote from Richard Sherwood, ''Professional organization of high integrity with excellent grading standards.'' And I''ve also seen them referred to in favorable terms by other experts on this board.

Hopefully some other our other resident gurus will chime in and describe PGS''s services because I''m not doing a very good job of it!


Oh no WIDGET--subscribed to the thread? Now the pressure''s on for me to do something *fabulous*!

I realy never heard of them...
So I cant comment...

But ''more stringent''...., doesnt mean anything!!!

One more tip...
Only a small and limited group of Laboratories are renowned in this field called Fancy Colored Diamonds...

It is much more sophisticated than grading colorless Diamonds.

 

[kcoursolle]

Out of curiousity dj, what size and shape are you looking for? I''m excited for your new project!!

 

[whatmeworry]

DeeJay, I too am excited about your project. I''m learning about colored diamonds from all your questions. Don''t forget the camera!

DiaGem,
Which labs do you think are renowned in grading fancy colored diamonds?

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 5/11/2007 4:13:32 PM
Author: kcoursolle
Out of curiousity dj, what size and shape are you looking for? I''m excited for your new project!!

I''m *thinking* radiant, 8 X 10 mm (give or take). Although it''s possible I might run across "the winning" oval or cushion, and then all bets are off. And I want to set it in a relatively simply pave halo with a pave band (no side stones), but want it to be simpler and different enough from my e-ring that it doesn''t look like I just ran out of ideas and did the same thing all over again, LOL.

 

[kcoursolle]

Date: 5/11/2007 4:22:46 PM
Author: Dee*Jay

Date: 5/11/2007 4:13:32 PM
Author: kcoursolle
Out of curiousity dj, what size and shape are you looking for? I''m excited for your new project!!

I''m *thinking* radiant, 8 X 10 mm (give or take). Although it''s possible I might run across ''the winning'' oval or cushion, and then all bets are off. And I want to set it in a relatively simply pave halo with a pave band (no side stones), but want it to be simpler and different enough from my e-ring that it doesn''t look like I just ran out of ideas and did the same thing all over again, LOL.

It sounds lovely!!! How about a pave split shank like this? That would make it a little "different" looking and you don''t really need to wear a wedding band with it. I think this look would be even more awesome with a yellow stone and yellow split prongs.

 

[yellowsparkles]

Date: 5/11/2007 3:43:45 PM
Author: DiaGem
One more tip...
Only a small and limited group of Laboratories are renowned in this field called Fancy Colored Diamonds...

It is much more sophisticated than grading colorless Diamonds.

Am I missing something? I would love to know the specifics on the "small and limited group of laboratories". Who are they? GIA, AGS, HRD????
Dia Gem, I respect your post the most and I bow down to you. Sometimes I just wish you could share a little bit more of your knowledge.