How does a non diamond cutter "invent" a diamond cut

[onthinice]

Interesting post.... I'm not getting into the debate, but was the patent granted ?
Is this what this post is all about ?

 

[Tiffany223311]

Interesting subject as I've been searching for an antique cushion diamond myself AND I actually have a family member who is a patent attorney.
Honestly, shopping around at some of my local jewelers here that carry estate jewelry I don't really see much of a difference between the branded diamond that seems to be the topic of debate here and diamonds that were polished decades sometimes a hundred or more years earlier. My grand mother has a gorgeous, lowered colored old mine cushion which I would love to inherit one day. I think she bought it in the 50s and she told me that it was an old diamond even then. I can't see the reason to even try to patent something that's been around for how many years now? And, my uncle defends patents that come up against litigation all the time. Even if a patent is granted by the government, it doesn't mean that it's an invention. Usually litigation after the patent is granted makes that determination. You can't believe the obvious things that people have tried to and have received patents for.
It would have been one thing if a completely new diamond was invented that's new and unique but this isn't the case here. Some diamonds like the Crisscut comes to mind which I saw at a jeweler's and it was very nice.

Juts the 2ct of a jewelry lover.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, find 100 OMC's and check and see how many are graded ideal cut by AGS. There are tons of wonky cut antique diamonds out there, especially cushions (OMC's). Very few have excellent symmetry and polish. Newly cut antique cushion diamonds are being sold by multiple vendors and some are being cut to ideal light performance standards.

Perhaps some designers will apply for a patent with the specs that make an ideal cut cushion or other style cuts. We don't know whether these patents will be granted or not. Maybe they won't. But that does not change the fact that someone besides a diamond cutter CAN design a diamond!

 

[Tiffany223311]

There are definitely some wonky old cushions out there! I've seen this firsthand. I kind of like that though in a weird way. It adds character to these stones just like a person.

I'm confused. So the invention here is that an old mine cut is polished better???

What I don't understand though, is that on the other hand there are also wonky old modern round brilliants polished 20-30 years ago. Nobody goes out and patents modern round brilliants that get perfect symmetry and performance because of advances in technology. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't even think the modern round brilliant has been around as long as old mine cushions.

 

[Karl_K]

Well, find 100 OMC's and check and see how many are graded ideal cut by AGS.

I have seen near 100 year old omcs that would get ags0 light performance under the same criteria as AVC and others.
They were cut by chance, that is what the rough supported.
They are rare but they do exist.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

There are definitely some wonky old cushions out there! I've seen this firsthand. I kind of like that though in a weird way. It adds character to these stones just like a person.

I'm confused. So the invention here is that an old mine cut is polished better???

What I don't understand though, is that on the other hand there are also wonky old modern round brilliants polished 20-30 years ago. Nobody goes out and patents modern round brilliants that get perfect symmetry and performance because of advances in technology. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't even think the modern round brilliant has been around as long as old mine cushions.

You are correct that modern round brilliants followed OEC's which were around early in the 20th century. I honestly have no idea what patents currently exist for diamond cuts. That would be interesting to know! And I have no idea whether a patent will be granted for ideal cut antique cushions. But David is questioning whether a non-diamond cutter can create/design the specs for a diamond, period. I certainly believe they can due to the technology that exists today. The secondary question is whether a diamond designer can take credit for designing an ideal cut stone that already exists as an antique stone yet was never ideal cut by today's standards. And ideal cut generally means ideal light performance, ideal polish, ideal symmetry. I think they should get credit for doing so just as an architect can have credit for designing new houses based on old homes.

 

[Karl_K]

ideal polish, ideal symmetry.

Is solely a function of the cutter, the designer or inventor has 0 to do with that, other than picking a cutter who can cut to that level.
A lot of it has to do with the process designed to cut them which is something only a master cutter can do combined with modern equipment.
A non-cutter can design a diamond or invent a diamond cut I have done both, but only a cutter can design the cutting process to execute the design in diamond rough.

 

[ascari_2]

Whether a person is an "inventor" or not in view of the word's legal definition is a legal question. Whether a person is an "inventor" in view of your own definition, that's a completely arbitrary and subjective issue which can be as wrong or as right as you want it to be.

There is no reason for an inventor to discuss legal matters on a public forum.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, find 100 OMC's and check and see how many are graded ideal cut by AGS.

I have seen near 100 year old omcs that would get ags0 light performance under the same criteria as AVC.
They were cut by chance, that is what the rough supported, rather than by design like the AVC.
They are rare but they do exist.

I'd love to have a few! How about posting them when you see them! I don't doubt this at all. And maybe ideal cut antique cushions won't be granted a patent. But I think finding a true antique cushion with ideal light performance might require a lifelong hunt (unless you are going to provide your sources!), and I am thankful when people can figure out how to produce them new for those who would love to have one!

I've seen a lot of mediocre new cushions on here and on vendors sites, and I am just glad there are some ideal cut antique style cushions available today. I do appreciate the time and expertise required to design a well cut diamond, period. And that includes YOU, Karl! Just curious since we are on this topic, did you and Yoram apply for a patent on Octavia (or are we allowed to ask that?)?

Just saw your most recent post. Yes, I understand that the cutter is the one who makes the stone have ideal polish and symmetry. The stone won't meet AGS ideal cut standards without that.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Whether a person is an "inventor" or not in view of the word's legal definition is a legal question. Whether a person is an "inventor" in view of your own definition, that's a completely arbitrary and subjective issue which can be as wrong or as right as you want it to be.

There is no reason for an inventor to discuss legal matters on a public forum.

+1

 

[Karl_K]

I'd love to have a few! How about posting them when you see them! I don't doubt this at all. And maybe ideal cut antique cushions won't be granted a patent. But I think finding a true antique cushion with ideal light performance might require a lifelong hunt (unless you are going to provide your sources!), and I am thankful when people can figure out how to produce them new for those who would love to have one!

Sit down at a large wholesaler who has a lot with an ASET scope and you might find a few

I've seen a lot of mediocre new cushions on here and on vendors sites, and I am just glad there are some ideal cut antique style cushions available today.
Me too, even though they are not the only beautiful cushions on the market.

I do appreciate the time and expertise required to design a well cut diamond, period. And that includes YOU, Karl!
Yoram's process and cutters deserve just as much credit and his advise was priceless. The story of the first one is on pricescope for those interested. I redesigned it for production and Yoram designed the process to cut it which is just as important.

Just curious since we are on this topic, did you and Yoram apply for a patent on Octavia (or are we allowed to ask that?)?
No, the facet diagram which is what traditionally was patented is already patented and expired. I very strongly disagree with "looks" patents which is the only patent that MIGHT be available.

edited for factual clarity.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I have never stated that it's impossible for a dealer to design, or even invent a diamond.
A dealer could even be a cutter- but I've never heard of it. And I've been working with cutters and dealers since 1976.
Karl has a real grasp on what goes into this- but most participants here do not. I say this with all due respect- many particiapnts here are incredibly well acquainted wth other aspects of diamonds- moreso than many people working in jewelry stores. But diamond cutting, adn what goes into designing a diamond are aspects that are less well understood here.
Being a cutter and a dealer are two totally separate, full time professions. Each can take a lifetime to master- well.... being a dealer not so much, but to become a cutter capable to producing stones to OMB stones routinely to EX/EX can be a life's work.


This is a forum about diamonds, for consumers.
Here's a completely GENERAL question:
Say there's misconception being spread by a trades-person, which then gets is being re-enforced by consumer participants, who would have no reason to be familiar with the technicalities.
What's the correct action to take to correct the misconception?

This really has nothing to do with being an inventor as much as it does being a diamond cutter.

 

[ascari_2]

If a person invents a particular cut then that person may qualify as an inventor of that cut. If a person invents a method of cutting then that person may qualify as an inventor on that method.

An engineer that designs a circuit can be an inventor of that circuit design even though he has no ability to make that circuit board without the help of other people/machinery. Likewise a person who invents a new method of making circuit boards can be an inventor on that method even though he might have no clue how the electrical components interact with one another.

There are countless othe examples like the ones above.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I have never stated that it's impossible for a dealer to design, or even invent a diamond.
A dealer could even be a cutter- but I've never heard of it. And I've been working with cutters and dealers since 1976.
Karl has a real grasp on what goes into this- but most participants here do not. I say this with all due respect- many particiapnts here are incredibly well acquainted wth other aspects of diamonds- moreso than many people working in jewelry stores. But diamond cutting, adn what goes into designing a diamond are aspects that are less well understood here.
Being a cutter and a dealer are two totally separate, full time professions. Each can take a lifetime to master- well.... being a dealer not so much, but to become a cutter capable to producing stones to OMB stones routinely to EX/EX can be a life's work.

how about Brian Gavin?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have never stated that it's impossible for a dealer to design, or even invent a diamond.
A dealer could even be a cutter- but I've never heard of it. And I've been working with cutters and dealers since 1976.
Karl has a real grasp on what goes into this- but most participants here do not. I say this with all due respect- many particiapnts here are incredibly well acquainted wth other aspects of diamonds- moreso than many people working in jewelry stores. But diamond cutting, adn what goes into designing a diamond are aspects that are less well understood here.
Being a cutter and a dealer are two totally separate, full time professions. Each can take a lifetime to master- well.... being a dealer not so much, but to become a cutter capable to producing stones to OMB stones routinely to EX/EX can be a life's work.

how about Brian Gavin?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'd love to have a few! How about posting them when you see them! I don't doubt this at all. And maybe ideal cut antique cushions won't be granted a patent. But I think finding a true antique cushion with ideal light performance might require a lifelong hunt (unless you are going to provide your sources!), and I am thankful when people can figure out how to produce them new for those who would love to have one!

Sit down at a large wholesaler who has a lot with an ASET scope and you might find a few

I've seen a lot of mediocre new cushions on here and on vendors sites, and I am just glad there are some ideal cut antique style cushions available today.
Me too, even though they are not the only beautiful cushions on the market.

I do appreciate the time and expertise required to design a well cut diamond, period. And that includes YOU, Karl!
Yoram's process and cutters deserve just as much credit and his advise was priceless. The story of the first one is on pricescope for those interested. I redesigned it for production and Yoram designed the process to cut it which is just as important.

Just curious since we are on this topic, did you and Yoram apply for a patent on Octavia (or are we allowed to ask that?)?
No, the facet diagram which is what traditionally was patented is already patented and expired. I very strongly disagree with "looks" patents which is the only patent that MIGHT be available.

edited for factual clarity.

Oh, now that would be extremely fun to go to a wholesaler with a lot of antique stones! I guess I'd have to take you with me, though. I don't think true wholesalers will just let me visit.

I absolutely have the highest regard for Yoram! I have one of his stones saved from years ago because it was one of the most beautiful that I have ever seen. Maybe I should ask if he'd cut one like it for me.

Hmm, that is interesting about your facet diagram. I assume it is based on the asscher? But yours has different faceting than an asscher, right???

 

[Karl_K]

Hmm, that is interesting about your facet diagram. I assume it is based on the asscher? But yours has different faceting than an asscher, right???

Same facet structure as the original asscher design different angles and proportions.
It is not impossible that there is one 100+ years old before the diamond saw cut similar someplace in the world.
That is part of what makes it so unique today it uses the entire rough, no second stone is possible.
Which is what makes it hard to find rough, has to have enough of a top to cut one but not enough to cut 2 regular asschers.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hmm, that is interesting about your facet diagram. I assume it is based on the asscher? But yours has different faceting than an asscher, right???

Same facet structure as the original asscher design different angles and proportions.
It is not impossible that there is one 100+ years old before the diamond saw cut similar someplace in the world.
That is what makes it unique today it uses the entire rough, no second stone is possible.
Which is what makes it hard to find rough, has to have enough of a top to cut one but not enough to cut 2 regular asschers.

Very interesting, Karl! Thank you!