How does a non diamond cutter "invent" a diamond cut

[Rockdiamond]

Hi All,
I think that the participants of PS are largely committed to accurate, and balanced info about diamonds- many of us work on a daily basis to dispense advice- and help consumers looking for a diamond.
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It seems to me that a dealer can encourage, envision, even finance a new design- however it's up to someone who actually knows how to cut diamonds to "invent" the design specifics.
There are so many minute details- as well as the skill of the diamond cutter herself ( or himself) that go into cutting any given diamond.
I think all the readers who may be confused by this terminology are entitled to an explanation.

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I have great interest in the answer myself having also had an idea about a new type of a diamond, which was then cut in partnership with Yoram. I came up with an idea- but it was Yoram who had to find the rough diamonds, and polish them to achieve what I had in mind.
Am I also entitled to claim authorship- that I invented it?

I'm very interested in everyone's opinion about ownership, and authorship of diamond designs. Maybe it's only a question of semantics- but I think it's still an interesting topic based on discussions of late.

 

[Circe]

I dunno, David - I think of it more or less the same way I think of designers vs. bench-people. A good designer - or bench! - can be both, but that's not to say that the monomaniacs don't make incredible contributions to the field. That said, bless CAD and the other technologies that permit it to be so: it's opened the door for a lot of mathematically savvy people with a great sense of spatial relations, like Jon and Karl, to enter a field that's still very insular. Far as I'm aware, if you don't apprentice young, usually with family, diamond-cutting is still a hard profession to crack ....

 

[JulieN]

So who is the designer of a Tom Ford tuxedo, Tom Ford or the tailor?

 

[Karl_K]

I really wish you had posted this without using names.... that said..

My 2c
Taking an existing design and modifying the angles/placement is designing not inventing.
I designed Octavia not invented it.

That said a non-cutter can be a diamond cut inventor, I have a folder with several hundred designs I invented and I am not a cutter.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I dunno, David - I think of it more or less the same way I think of designers vs. bench-people. A good designer - or bench! - can be both, but that's not to say that the monomaniacs don't make incredible contributions to the field. That said, bless CAD and the other technologies that permit it to be so: it's opened the door for a lot of mathematically savvy people with a great sense of spatial relations, like Jon and Karl, to enter a field that's still very insular. Far as I'm aware, if you don't apprentice young, usually with family, diamond-cutting is still a hard profession to crack ....

Great points Circe- but part of why I am asking is I believe Jon and Karl did not participate to the same degree if we're talking about Octavia versus AVC- and neither of them is a diamond cutter, as far as I know.

Julie- good point about tuxedos- but not totally comparable.
If the designer sources the material, that in itself gives them more involvement in production. Mass production, which is possible in clothing, is not in diamond cutting outside RBC- which is down to a formula basically.
The aspect of buying the rough diamond is a large element in the cutting of a particular design.
But it's a good point overall- if Edison had the idea, but hired someone else to implement, who "invented" it?
Still, it seems to me that diamonds present unique challenges- and furthermore, in a forum like this, as opposed to "general discussion" specifics are important.

 

[Karl_K]

Here is where I think the cutoff is:
You say to the cutter I want a diamond to do this and they produce it then you are not a designer they are.

You give the cutter a cutting diagram of an existing design and ask them to cut it to these specific angles your a designer. A lot of designs end up being co-designed because the cutter comes back with improvements based on years of experience or it could have been based on their design with modifications. Yoram has co-design rights to Octavia for this reason and that without him developing the cutting procedure it would have never been produced in any number.

You create a brand new cut your an inventor.

A cutter can be a designer and an inventor all 3 rolled into one.

That is why I do not like this thread being specific.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

So who is the designer of a Tom Ford tuxedo, Tom Ford or the tailor?

I was going to use this exact analogy. The dress is not a new invention, but fashion designers design new dress styles all the time. The seamstresses who make them do so with a pattern and instructions from the designer. It is absurd to say that the designer shouldn't get credit for the design just because they didn't sew the dress. yet the designer certainly needs an expert seamstress to make the item.

My hat is off to designers like Karl and Jonathan who had the vision to design beautiful diamonds with precision cut and great light return. In Karl's case, his cut is similar to asscher shape and Jon's is similar to antique stones. But I don't think you'd find any asschers anything like Karl's and I don't think you'd find hardly any old OEC's/OMC's with the precision cut and light return of AV stones. And Yoram absolutely has to be greatly admired for his amazing craftsmanship.

And diamonds can certainly be designed before rough is obtained just as dresses can be designed before any fabric is obtained.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It is up to the patent office to determine if his designs are unique enough to grant him a patent. But I think he designed it all by himself (unless Yoram gave input as Karl mentioned). Maybe others have designed similar stones. But as far as I know, he was the first to have an antique cushion graded for ideal light performance by AGS. I don't think you'd be able to turn up many OMC's that have been granted that grade.

 

[Ella]

Vendors, please remember our policies. Posts have been edited to make the discussion general. Please remember our policies about vendors discussing other vendor merchandise.

If you wish to have this conversation please do so within our policies.

 

[AnneinGA]

Does Edison get less credit for inventing the phonograph because he gave the plans to an underling to produce the pieces to make it?

If the Wright Brothers took plans for their airplane to an carpenter for assembly, do they lose historical title of “inventors of the
aircraft?” because they didn't actually build it?

Invent, from dictionary.com: to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance: to invent the telegraph.

And here’s another excellent definition that applies to this thread:
Urbandictionary.com
Stir the pot : Someone who loves to proliferate the tension and drama between 2 or more feuding people/groups in public to get a raise of people in hopes of starting a $hitstorm of drama and uncomfortable conflict, sometimes for personal gain but oftentimes just for the thrill of confrontation.

 

[Rockdiamond]

If Edison actually conceptualized it, designed it, drew the plans and had someone implement them, that would indeed qualify for not only design, but also invention.
If Edison was posting here, and claiming invention of something that was in question, it would be correct to ask for qualifications as well.
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In the diamond business, there's a real demarcation between cutters and dealers. Besides Karl, I have never heard of a non cutter actually doing specific design work.
Maybe Jon has- but he's not been specific about what his involvement is.
When one publicly claims to have invented something, it begs the pragmatic questions.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Does Edison get less credit for inventing the phonograph because he gave the plans to an underling to produce the pieces to make it?

If the Wright Brothers took plans for their airplane to an carpenter for assembly, do they lose historical title of “inventors of the
aircraft?” because they didn't actually build it?

Invent, from dictionary.com: to originate or create as a product of one's own ingenuity, experimentation, or contrivance: to invent the telegraph.

And here’s another excellent definition that applies to this thread:
Urbandictionary.com
Stir the pot : Someone who loves to proliferate the tension and drama between 2 or more feuding people/groups in public to get a raise of people in hopes of starting a $hitstorm of drama and uncomfortable conflict, sometimes for personal gain but oftentimes just for the thrill of confrontation.

 

[ascari_2]

Invention and reduction to practice are two separate things.

 

[bigdiamondtinygal]

This is definitely a question that should be directed to an intellectual property attorney. You ask an excellent question but really only a qualified intellectual property attorney licensed in the jurisdiction at issue can advise you re: these questions and concerns. There may also be some patent questions involved here as well.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you bigdiamondtinygal
There's actually no legal question here at all.
If a patent was in place, and the owner decided to litigate to attempt to protect it, there's certainly legal ramifications.
But this is more about a forum designed to educate consumers about diamonds- and although it's clearly a thorny issue, I do devote a lot of time here. So if I see what I perceive to be an incorrect usage of terminology, leading to a lot of misconception, I can either just look the other way, or simply ask a question that's very easy to answer.
I honestly wish more professionals would contribute here.
Maybe a discussion like this will encourage more transparency encouraging more trade participation.
I apologize to anyone made uncomfortable by me asking.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I really think most people here are intelligent enough not to be confused by the terms designer/inventor and understand the role of a person who plans out the specs of a diamond that once cut will produce a certain end result. This is an issue of sematics and perhaps one word is better than the other. But in no way am I confused if someone uses one word or the other in saying that a particular vendor was responsible for planning/designing/creating/inventing/conceiving the design of a particular line of ideal cut antique cushions, for example.

 

[bigdiamondtinygal]

I'm not normally one to debate here, but just to be clear, I happen to be an intellectual property lawyer. Though I am certainly not going to give my legal advice here, your question as to who "invented" the cut...the designer or the cutter, is, indeed a legal question.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'm not normally one to debate here, but just to be clear, I happen to be an intellectual property lawyer. Though I am certainly not going to give my legal advice here, your question as to who "invented" the cut...the designer or the cutter, is, indeed a legal question.

The cutter can't possibly be the inventor if they are hired to cut according to specific specs provided by the designer, can they???

 

[TC1987]

...

And here’s another excellent definition that applies to this thread:
Urbandictionary.com
Stir the pot : Someone who loves to proliferate the tension and drama between 2 or more feuding people/groups in public to get a raise of people in hopes of starting a $hitstorm of drama and uncomfortable conflict, sometimes for personal gain but oftentimes just for the thrill of confrontation.

^ LMBO!

Allow me to add this about $hiftstorms, as well as tempests in teacups:
2. have bigger fish to fry
To have other things to do, to have more important things to do, to have more interesting things to do.
"I can't spend a lot of time on the problem. I have bigger fish to fry."
http://www.urbandictionary .com/define.php?term=bigger fish to fry

 

[Christina...]

I'm not normally one to debate here, but just to be clear, I happen to be an intellectual property lawyer. Though I am certainly not going to give my legal advice here, your question as to who "invented" the cut...the designer or the cutter, is, indeed a legal question.

The cutter can't possibly be the inventor if they are hired to cut according to specific specs provided by the designer, can they???

This would be a sweet deal for the cutter! Simply following someone else's idea, plan, model, design and they get rights of invention?? Absolutely doesn't seem right. Why would any inventor then have someone else actually build, or create what they conceptualized?


I have to say that I agree that this thread is uncomfortable and in poor judgement. Had the issue been raised by someone not in the trade, I would feel differently, but as it's been presented it feel's unprofessional and yes...pot stirring. This isn't the place for this conversation as most here can only speculate as to how the law reads and whether or not a person has the right to claim they 'invented' or 'designed' or 'created' something. Perhaps asking Jon himself would have resulted in the answers that RD seeks.

 

[Rockdiamond]

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Clearly consumers are not able to question such claims which leaves only someone with knowledge- someone in the trade to ask this question
for example- DS - with the amount you post I'd think you want correct info posted
The cutter is indeed the one who invented the cut
We who are not diamond cutters do not know the specific actions to take to produce a given result- the cutter does.
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[diamondseeker2006]

I thought of a better analogy. An architect designs a house and creates all the specs. The design is his intellectual property. The contractor and construction workers build the house. Did the architect tell them where every nail goes? No. Did the architect buy the materials to build the house? No. Do the construction people get credit for doing a good job building the house and even maybe suggest some alterations during construction? Sure thing. There are lots of houses and many architects. This architect didn't invent the first house. But he designed or invented this particular design.

 

[Ella]

Ladies and gentlemen, last warning or this thread will be closed and offenders will be asked to take a time out.

NO calling out of vendors by other vendors. Keep the conversation GENERAL or this thread will be closed.

 

[CopperTop]

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Clearly consumers are not able to question such claims which leaves only someone with knowledge- someone in the trade to ask this question
for example- DS - with the amount you post I'd think you want correct info posted
The cutter is indeed the one who invented the cut
We who are not diamond cutters do not know the specific actions to take to produce a given result- the cutter does. Do you think Jon told Yoram what angles to use? Facet size? Facet placement ?
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I am a consumer and if I desired clarification I would contact the inventor and ask how involved they were in the process. Your assumption that I'm being misled because I'm ignorant of diamond cutting techniques is offensive and overreaching.

Your entire argument is based on your own personal definition of the word 'invent' and opinions on specific designer/manufacturer relations.

So the correct answer is I don't agree because its a matter of semantics. Also I just don't care.

Perhaps your questions would best be answered by an inventor directly and then you can stop urging consumers to do your legwork.

 

[Rockdiamond]

This is about diamond cutting- especially as it relates to a forum devoted to information about diamonds
If people are under the impression that a dealer can instruct a master diamond cutter the specifics on how to assess the rough, saw the diamond, block it, how to shape the facets, where to place the facets and at what angles- its a misconception
diamond dealers don't know these specific aspects. This is not necessarily common consumer knowledge
What Karl did was design in cooperation with a cutter- but this is generally unheard of to be done by diamond dealers

 

[JulieN]

I'm not sure why you think people cannot wear two hats. You think because someone is a great engineer, they cannot make amazing pizza?

Garry just posted a cut designer that Octonus makes. Garry posted the free version for consumers to play with, so it is a read-only/viewer, but if one wanted to buy the products that they use to assess the rough they are available.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I will pose another question to add confusion to the mix. Why is it that when a consumer designs a ring(as in the case of Brad Pitt
, and goes thru the careful process of making a one of a kind piece for his beloved, the jeweler may claim the ring design as his own, and sell that design to others.

I understand there are two types of patents-utility and??? that one could apply for. On HSN and QVC, two new desigs have received patents for diamond cuts, One 104 facets, the other ????. I think even Tacori has one. They are usually selling CZ's, but they refer to them as diamond cuts. If Victoria Weick , Tacori and QvC can get patents, perhaps the AVC, AVR. and the Octavia are candidates.
What kind of patents they have I can't say, but they always annouce they have a patent Check fpr yourself with a patent attorney.
The other day you did try to engage Jon in this discusson. He didn't bite. Yes, you do want to put him down. I don't know the answer, and no one here does, so why continue.

Annette

 

[Rockdiamond]

I don't want to "pick on anyone" All parties involved can speak for themselves I'd think
Isn't part of what we do here give information to "Debunk' myths jewelers tell to consumers?
Should vendors be allowed to make any claim unquestioned?
Yes this did come up in the thread referenced above. Specific claims were made, which I questioned - and there was an answer given that did not address the issue

 

[justginger]

David, as someone who has never had an issue with you in the past, just stop. You're not going to receive a legitimate answer from anyone who is not a legal professional. You're pushing the envelope with the mods and are alienating potential customers. If you're truly interested in the TOPIC, not the individuals behind specific cuts, you need to post in generalities.

 

[Laila619]

David, as someone who has never had an issue with you in the past, just stop. You're not going to receive a legitimate answer from anyone who is not a legal professional. You're pushing the envelope with the mods and are alienating potential customers. If you're truly interested in the TOPIC, not the individuals behind specific cuts, you need to post in generalities.

Ditto. I too have never had any issues with the way you post before, but really this just seems unnecessary and like stirring the pot.