How did the "cultural" preference for high color/clarity begin?

[Lorelei]

This is a great thread.

 

[LLJsmom]

I’m Chinese as is my wife. After our super ideal purchases, my wife is not totally averse to stones in the G-K colour ranges now. While she wouldn’t turn away if I did purchase her a D-F IF-VVS stone, she’d more than likely slap me in the face for “wasting” that much money on a stone when we could use it for other more pressing concerns (ie my bubba boy).

If pushed to purchase a stone she would probably prefer to buy quality (ie eye clean [VS1-SI1], well proportioned stones in near colourless colours) over something she (and many of her friends and relatives) can’t see the difference with compared with a “lower” quality stone (like the superideals she has now are at least in terms of colour).

Last year, we went back to China and as I mentioned in a post on another thread while I was back there, I spent an inordinate amount of time in jewellery stores there just to see what was available and potentially buying my wife a present (if the price was right). Was shown at least 100 stones with their grading reports and found 5 stones that would fit within the PS community’s preferred range of specs (so pretty poor hit rate). But the prices were between 50-80% more expensive than on our PS community recommended vendors (so while gold and the labour cost to make a piece was cheap there, the price differential wouldn’t have made up for the ridiculous markup on stones).

The number of comments she got from the salesgirls at those stores about her BG Blue solitaire was quite astounding as the vast majority hadn’t seen a superideal stone before (those that had had seen HoF stones when they were sent for training in Hong Kong).

A large number of them also rubbished “lower” colour grades as being inferior stones (main reason given: lower colour meant stones were not going to sparkle and be brilliant compared with colourless stones). I asked a few of them what colour they thought her BG Blue was and all said between F-H.

The looks on their faces when I told them it was a K and showed them the PDF of the AGS report I have on my phone (I’m that sick to carry them around with me) was priceless.

I hear you @bmfang I have gone to Hong Kong as well and randomly diamond shopped and saw the same lack of well cut stones. And if course the same D blah blah blah VVS1 blah blah blah. I don’t necessarily fault these people. They were never taught and don’t have the emotional and mental fortitude to make their own decision. I’m not without bias and taint. I had issues allowing myself to fall in love with a K diamond. It was a big deal for me, going against everything that I had been told in the previous 20 years. But being a big girl now , I decided to go with what my eyes and heart wanted, knowing I would have to explain to everyone in my family why I bought a K stone. Cause of course they would ask for all the gory details about my diamond. And I wasn’t gonna lie. They all started with “I saw your diamond from far away and it was s sparkly!!” I’m thinking, “uuhhhhh yeah!! It’s an OEC and it is huge!!” But said nothing. They wear some big diamonds too but they weirdly try to hide them at the same time. Then they said “how big is it?” “Is it real?” And “how much did it cost?” Lastly they ask about color. I don’t know what my point of sharing this is. But interesting to note that they appreciate the size and the sparkliness. But then once I go into it’s an OEC that’s when the education part starts. I can see in their heads what they’re thinking about a “K”. Well that’s their issue and not mine, (much anymore anyway...). I so have to admit I would not kick an icy white emerald cut out of the bed. Forgive my rambling. I’m in busy season and this is just stress relief st this point. I think I want to try a blind test. I may go to my jeweler and ask her to bust out 3/4 MRBS in the same size and varying color, clarity and cut. And I will just choose without knowing anything which I like best. I am interested in what my eyes would choose without any mental bias. @JDDN and @LaylaR wouldn’t that be fun?
And I’m not joking about it being a priority to be able to see it. Deteriorating eyesight is real. Wait until you young uns hit your forties. Can you say “multi focal”? If I am paying so much damn money, I better not have to strain my eyes to see that sucker. And yes, I wanna see the facets too. For me, bigger is the only logical option.

 

[LLJsmom]

So to go back to the original question of how it began, I don’t know. How it perpetuates is because in Asia, people are always worried about what other people think of them. That “saving face” thing. Most people can’t even imagine thinking for themselves, let alone buck the social norm. There would be something to buck if you knew about alternatives. But if you’re not even open to the possibility of alternatives it’s gonna be D VVS1s forever. Unless the change comes from above, like some big corporate re-education program that is wide spread, starting the change at a generational level and the old farts dying out I don’t see much change coming.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

For most of my family and my wife’s family, the concept of diamonds being a “flight currency” or an item of “stored value” doesn’t ring as true as items like 22k (SE Asia “standard”) gold (or 24k gold and more recently pure unalloyed platinum in China) and jade (primarily jadeite, though I have a soft spot for nephrite as well as jadeite). They always see these two items as being more inherently sellable at short notice rather than diamonds (or any type of gemstones). It’s probably only my generation where gemstones have started to come into play as a measure of stored value (but the bias towards gold still remains).

Jadeite! Yes, indeed. The stone of heaven. Revered as the ultimate gemstone by millions upon millions of people. And top quality is very liquid among those who understand it. What a complicated and fascinating gemstone. It is what got me into the gem business in the 1970's

 

[JDDN]

@LLJsmom yes! I always find it a great time comparing stones and seeing what my eyes love vs specs. Just too much fun, let's do this!

 

[KaeKae]

This thread reminded me of my grandmother's engagement ring, which was left to me. It was bought around 1927. I was too young when she passed to remember anything. My aunt told me that Grandma always said her ring was a half carat, "blue white" diamond. From what my aunt said, I know that she believed the ring to be of highest quality, regarding color. I had it appraised about 20 years ago. I don't have the appraisal handy, but recall it to be a .35ct H SI1 OEC.

I can't find the link now, I once had a chart that showed the old terms used to describe diamond colors bookmarked. I don't recall if Grandma was on the mark, regarding her stone's color.

ETA, I have checked for florescence, but found none. The stone is clear, not milky or hazy at all.

 

[KaeKae]

I found this chart. Let's see if I can manage to post it.
Doesn't actually have "blue white" though

 

[Texas Leaguer]

'Blue white' was a term used originally to indicate top quality. But the term was abused so much that the FTC eventually had to put regulation on its use in commerce.

The case of the grandmother's H Si1 OEC is an example of how it was being indiscriminately used in marketing.
http://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=2154&ArticleTitle=Blue+White

 

[KaeKae]

@Texas Leaguer
Thank you for the information. You have confirmed my thoughts on the matter. It's a shame how the consumer can be sold a bunch of nonsense, I think having such lingo come to be doesn't help, does it? People like labels, though.

Interesting, the stone and the ring are really lovely, if fragile from wear over many, many years. I treasure it, no matter what, as I hope we all do our sparklies

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

This is easily my favorite thread going right now. It is always great to hear the personal stories from individual PSers.

 

[WinkHPD]

This is easily my favorite thread going right now. It is always great to hear the personal stories from individual PSers.

Many moons ago I was a pilot, private type, one each. I was taking courses for my commercial license and had to make some cross country trips. One of my favorite trips was a flight to San Fransisco. It was a magnificent flight, VFR on top. (Visual flight rules, on top of heavy clouds but in clear blue sky up top.)

I remember the flight as being exhilarating as it was my first solo instrument landing. I entered the soup and was in it for four to five minutes before I popped into the rainy, dreary weather, final approach to the Oakland airport. Being blind in the soup for that long scared the poop out of me, much different than having an instructor with you to take over should you mess up!

Once I arrived in San Fransisco and checked into my hotel I headed straight to Gump's. I had read Richard Gump's wonderful book Jade: Stone of Heaven. (Available here at Amazon.) and could not wait to see the Jade department at Gump's. I had hoped also to meet Mr. Gump, but it was a hope that did not happen. He had retired and was no longer there.

What treasures I saw that day. Some magnificent carvings and a true imperial jade cabochon that transformed the light around it into a green glow. I dreamed of bringing treasures like that to Boise, but soon after I opened my store in Boise I discovered that the market for Jade in Boise was VERY slim. I brought in a couple of Jade shows and sold a few magnificent pieces, but never enough to pay the cost of bringing the shows to town. I sadly limped out of the Jade trade, but always love to see fine pieces whenever the opportunity presents itself.

A few years later I took Resa to San Fransisco and the first place I took her was to Gump's, only to discover they had a few nice pieces, but nothing like the magnificent display in the "by request only" room they had when I first visited. I think that when Mr. Gump retired and sold his store that the personal dedication that he brought to the jade department was also retired.

Shortly after my trip I opened my store in Boise and gave up flying. I did not have time to do both well, and if you are not flying well, then you should leave it to someone who is.

That is my story about Jade, and I am sticking to it.

Wink

 

[cflutist]

@Wink,

Some jade from my late mother. Have not worn any of the rings, the brooch, or bracelets, but have worn the pendants. I prefer HPD CBI rings instead

 

[Yimmers]

This is all pretty interesting. I am Korean and my husband is Chinese. I recall my MIL once mentioning to her daughter that higher clarity meant a better cut diamond. Ehhhhhhh...I ended up walking her then-fiance (now husband) into getting her 1.5 H color MRB vs a 1.3 F MRB (which happened to be what I had at that time). I know her mother would be comparing the two, so I told him to go for the bigger one, and that she wasn't going to notice the color difference and because both were ideal cut. They were priced approximately the same. I think her mom liked it until she heard it was an H, to which I pointed out that side by side, could anyone really tell the difference? Plus, her diamond was super sparkly. Her mother was really surprised as it went against the traditional notions of what constituted a "quality" diamond.

My mom has never had a large diamond. Her original engagement ring was probably a 20 pointer, at best. It was stolen, but my mom never wore it so there wasn't much sentimental value behind it. She prefers gold, the higher the better. It's still not really my jam.

Then there's my friend, a Korean gal who married a Korean fellow. 1 carat D IF, because it was perfect, just like her. Super sweet sentiment . She was thrilled until her younger sister had a 1.5 carat stone, lower color/clarity. Let me tell you, DSS set in for her!

Now, I went from a F to a J. Granted, MRB vs. AVR, so it's comparing apple to oranges. The F always seemed steely gray to me, while the J, even with a slight tint, faces up incredibly white. I would have to look at a lower colored MRB to see if I could handle it.
As to the issue of inclusions, my eyes, which were nearsighted, are now going farsighted, so I guess that works for my SI2 stone. Most people don't notice the inclusion in the vast number of circumstances.
I guess I find that now, as I am getting older, I lean more towards the warmer colors. Part of me still regrets not going for the L VVS2 AVC, even if it would have faced up smaller. I think I just lean towards that cushion cut.

 

[luvsparkles]

Curious why some cultures seem to value high color and/or clarity grades that might not be visible. I get "mind-clean" but it seems silly to me to pay huge premiums for differences that aren't visible IRL.

Seems like there are a lot of first time posters on this site that come seeking D-F color and VVS-IF clarity grades.

I've learned that in some Asian cultures the clarity choice is a matter of superstition. Most buy in the VVS range and some search out IF. Flaws in a diamond are considered to possibly cause bad luck in a marriage. So for the best wishes of the marriage, they search out vvs stones for good luck. Superstition.
Then color choice is just because, in their minds, it is the best and will make a whiter brighter stone.

 

[scarsmum]

'Blue white' was a term used originally to indicate top quality. But the term was abused so much that the FTC eventually had to put regulation on its use in commerce.

The case of the grandmother's H Si1 OEC is an example of how it was being indiscriminately used in marketing.
http://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsItem.aspx?ArticleID=2154&ArticleTitle=Blue+White

There is one true blue white diamond for sale on eBay atm. If you search for Golconda diamond it will show up. Blue white actually refers to type iia diamonds, which are indeed rare.

 

[scarsmum]

There is one true blue white diamond for sale on eBay atm. If you search for Golconda diamond it will show up. Blue white actually refers to type iia diamonds, which are indeed rare.

Oops, I meant to reply to pp not you @Texas Leaguer !

 

[scarsmum]

Turns out, there’s a few possibly. I was talking about this one https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/401270114117

 

[WinkHPD]

Turns out, there’s a few possibly. I was talking about this one https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/401270114117

Out of curiosity I went to the Ebay listing you gave us and could find no reference to fluorescence in the listing.

When I entered the diamond trade in 1975 I was taught at GIA that a Blue White was a colorless diamond that fluoresced a bluish color out of doors. While doing a google search to remind myself when in the 1930's that it was that the FTC banned the use of the term in selling diamonds I found this interesting article by Martin Rapaport written in April of 1998. I am posting just the first two paragraphs as they directly apply to this conversation.

Quote:

Once upon a time before the diamond industry standardized to GIA color grading terminology the term Blue White (Blauweiss) was used to describe the finest color white diamonds. The original Blue White diamonds came from South Africa's Jagersfontein mine. The best Jager stones were highly transparent (clear and colorless) with a bluish tint due to fluorescence. Ironically, during the early part of the 20th century fluorescence was seen as something that had a very positive impact on top colors. The extra sparkle fluorescence provided when the diamond was seen face up in sunlight was accepted as verification of the diamonds high color. Blue White diamonds were avidly sought out by the trade and consumers who paid higher prices for diamonds with fluorescence. Contrary to current market conditions, fluorescence added value to high color diamonds.

Now the history of what happened to fluorescence is very interesting and informative. The trade had something very good going with fluorescent Blue White diamonds, but they blew it. Instead of maintaining consumer confidence in Blue White the trade began selling all types of lower color diamonds as Blue White. The term Blue White and the underlying concept that blue (i.e. fluorescence) added value to white (colorless) diamonds was so abused by the trade that in 1938 the U.S. Federal Trade Commission outlawed the use of the term Blue White for anything but blue diamonds.

End Quote.

Mr. Rapaport does not talk about one of my pet theories as to why fluorescence is now normally a negative in the pricing of a diamond. In 1975 I would often pay a premium for fluorescent diamonds. The more beautiful and bluish the diamond was out of doors, the higher the premium I would have to pay.

Then when the diamond investment craze hit the public in the late 70's, people who knew nothing about diamonds were hired to sell diamonds as investments from telephone sweatshops. They did not know, nor did they have the time to learn that a small percentage of the fluorescent diamonds might be ugly out of doors. Since everything sold by the sweat shops had to have a diamond grading report and last weeks lady's shoe salesmen did not understand what fluorescence was and its possible additional beauty, or detriment, the buyers for the sweatshops just would not buy fluorescent diamonds and they became a hard item to sell.

It needs to be further understood, that at this time, most retailers did not need or use Diamond Grading reports. They were trusted members of the community and expected to be knowledgeable about the items they were selling. As a recent GIA Graduate Gemologist, I had been appalled at the low level of expertise of not only many of the retailers, but of the wholesalers, who consistently graded diamonds from one to three color and clarity grades than I did. I quickly started buying only GIA documented diamonds, as even though they cost more per carat, they saved me a lot of postage and arguing with vendors about their inaccurate grading.

I personally feel that one of the few good things to come out of the investment craze was the increase in the popularity and knowledge of the existence of Diamond Grading reports. Of course, most of the labs being used at the time were bogus sweatshops their own sweet smelly selves and were quickly exposed as frauds, although nothing was ever done about them by the government. GIA, of course, was the preeminent laboratory and was the one that rose above the others in reputation and quality. AGS would not create their own lab until many years later. (They only did it because GIA would not institute a good cut grade for their reports.)

Just a few thoughts about Blue Whites and lab grading reports.

Wink

 

[scarsmum]

Out of curiosity I went to the Ebay listing you gave us and could find no reference to fluorescence in the listing.

When I entered the diamond trade in 1975 I was taught at GIA that a Blue White was a colorless diamond that fluoresced a bluish color out of doors. While doing a google search to remind myself when in the 1930's that it was that the FTC banned the use of the term in selling diamonds I found this interesting article by Martin Rapaport written in April of 1998. I am posting just the first two paragraphs as they directly apply to this conversation.

Quote:

Once upon a time before the diamond industry standardized to GIA color grading terminology the term Blue White (Blauweiss) was used to describe the finest color white diamonds. The original Blue White diamonds came from South Africa's Jagersfontein mine. The best Jager stones were highly transparent (clear and colorless) with a bluish tint due to fluorescence. Ironically, during the early part of the 20th century fluorescence was seen as something that had a very positive impact on top colors. The extra sparkle fluorescence provided when the diamond was seen face up in sunlight was accepted as verification of the diamonds high color. Blue White diamonds were avidly sought out by the trade and consumers who paid higher prices for diamonds with fluorescence. Contrary to current market conditions, fluorescence added value to high color diamonds.

Now the history of what happened to fluorescence is very interesting and informative. The trade had something very good going with fluorescent Blue White diamonds, but they blew it. Instead of maintaining consumer confidence in Blue White the trade began selling all types of lower color diamonds as Blue White. The term Blue White and the underlying concept that blue (i.e. fluorescence) added value to white (colorless) diamonds was so abused by the trade that in 1938 the U.S. Federal Trade Commission outlawed the use of the term Blue White for anything but blue diamonds.

End Quote.

Mr. Rapaport does not talk about one of my pet theories as to why fluorescence is now normally a negative in the pricing of a diamond. In 1975 I would often pay a premium for fluorescent diamonds. The more beautiful and bluish the diamond was out of doors, the higher the premium I would have to pay.

Then when the diamond investment craze hit the public in the late 70's, people who knew nothing about diamonds were hired to sell diamonds as investments from telephone sweatshops. They did not know, nor did they have the time to learn that a small percentage of the fluorescent diamonds might be ugly out of doors. Since everything sold by the sweat shops had to have a diamond grading report and last weeks lady's shoe salesmen did not understand what fluorescence was and its possible additional beauty, or detriment, the buyers for the sweatshops just would not buy fluorescent diamonds and they became a hard item to sell.

It needs to be further understood, that at this time, most retailers did not need or use Diamond Grading reports. They were trusted members of the community and expected to be knowledgeable about the items they were selling. As a recent GIA Graduate Gemologist, I had been appalled at the low level of expertise of not only many of the retailers, but of the wholesalers, who consistently graded diamonds from one to three color and clarity grades than I did. I quickly started buying only GIA documented diamonds, as even though they cost more per carat, they saved me a lot of postage and arguing with vendors about their inaccurate grading.

I personally feel that one of the few good things to come out of the investment craze was the increase in the popularity and knowledge of the existence of Diamond Grading reports. Of course, most of the labs being used at the time were bogus sweatshops their own sweet smelly selves and were quickly exposed as frauds, although nothing was ever done about them by the government. GIA, of course, was the preeminent laboratory and was the one that rose above the others in reputation and quality. AGS would not create their own lab until many years later. (They only did it because GIA would not institute a good cut grade for their reports.)

Just a few thoughts about Blue Whites and lab grading reports.

Wink

Hmm, I had come to think that 2a was the true blue white, regardless of fluorescence. But I have probably taken onboard the wrong piece of information. Could it be though that both 2a and D with sbf was the true blue white?

 

[theredspinel]

I love the fact people think diamonds are rare when most of the population has atleast one

 

[HappyNewLife]

Turns out, there’s a few possibly. I was talking about this one https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/401270114117

wow. $22k/carat!

 

[WinkHPD]

Hmm, I had come to think that 2a was the true blue white, regardless of fluorescence. But I have probably taken onboard the wrong piece of information. Could it be though that both 2a and D with sbf was the true blue white?

Not according to the article by Martin Rapaport, and it certainly is not what I was taught at GIA back in 1975. I do not believe there would ever have been enough Golconda diamonds on the market to have developed a clamoring for them.

Wink

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I believe that the mythical "blue white" may have also been associated with the type IIa Golconda stones. The idea being that they were rare, highly transparent and colorless stones with fluoro that made them look like 'C' color in sunlight. However, I am not sure what the mechanism of fluor would have been since type IIa have almost no nitrogen.

Richard Wise writes about the Golconda diamonds in his book about Tavernier and his voyages to India. Maybe he will pop in here and give us a history lesson.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Mr. Rapaport does not talk about one of my pet theories as to why fluorescence is now normally a negative in the pricing of a diamond. In 1975 I would often pay a premium for fluorescent diamonds. The more beautiful and bluish the diamond was out of doors, the higher the premium I would have to pay.

Then when the diamond investment craze hit the public in the late 70's, people who knew nothing about diamonds were hired to sell diamonds as investments from telephone sweatshops. They did not know, nor did they have the time to learn that a small percentage of the fluorescent diamonds might be ugly out of doors. Since everything sold by the sweat shops had to have a diamond grading report and last weeks lady's shoe salesmen did not understand what fluorescence was and its possible additional beauty, or detriment, the buyers for the sweatshops just would not buy fluorescent diamonds and they became a hard item to sell.

It needs to be further understood, that at this time, most retailers did not need or use Diamond Grading reports. They were trusted members of the community and expected to be knowledgeable about the items they were selling. As a recent GIA Graduate Gemologist, I had been appalled at the low level of expertise of not only many of the retailers, but of the wholesalers, who consistently graded diamonds from one to three color and clarity grades than I did. I quickly started buying only GIA documented diamonds, as even though they cost more per carat, they saved me a lot of postage and arguing with vendors about their inaccurate grading.

I personally feel that one of the few good things to come out of the investment craze was the increase in the popularity and knowledge of the existence of Diamond Grading reports. Of course, most of the labs being used at the time were bogus sweatshops their own sweet smelly selves and were quickly exposed as frauds, although nothing was ever done about them by the government. GIA, of course, was the preeminent laboratory and was the one that rose above the others in reputation and quality. AGS would not create their own lab until many years later. (They only did it because GIA would not institute a good cut grade for their reports.)

Just a few thoughts about Blue Whites and lab grading reports.

Wink

I agree that the "craze" during end of 70's early 80's, with regard to D IF traded by paper to "investors" contributed to the stigma associated with fluorescence. It was a very, very unusual time and phenomenon in the industry. D IF 1.00ct diamonds spiked from like 12K to 75K in a very short period of time. Completely out of step with the rest of the diamond market. It was a very specific demand driven spike and dealers could sell any DIF they could get your hands on almost immediately. So, like a hot stock on the stock market, buyers kept bidding up the price WAY past rational levels just to be able to get the stones. Every DIF was in play, including the approximately 30% of stones that fluoresce. So, hazy strong fluoro stones were being sold as investment stones along with the rest. And for a while they all looked like they would just keep going up. But, like the stock market a correction was just a matter of time.

When the market started going down and there were plenty of stones to buy, dealers suddenly became very selective and fluoro stones became especially difficult to liquidate. So, lots of 'investors' took losses as DIF came back to earth, but none more so than those that bought the fluoro stones.

While there are other factors that contributed to the stigmatization of fluoro, I think the DIF investment craze was a major inflection point.

 

[WinkHPD]

Agreed my friend.

Were you part of the trade back then? Those were "interesting" times.

I have some stories from then, but this is the wrong thread to tell them in.

Wink

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Agreed my friend.

Were you part of the trade back then? Those were "interesting" times.

I have some stories from then, but this is the wrong thread to tell them in.

Wink

I had just entered the business, so I did'nt have much of a frame of reference at the time. It was not until years later that I started to understand just how crazy that time was. There was a time in the mid 80's that I had weekly visits from individuals bringing in the gemstone 'investment' parcels that they had purchased and were trying to unload. Almost invariably the packaging was worth more than the gemstones. (I kid you not). And these victims were sophisticated professionals. The boiler room operations would get phone lists of doctors, accountants, etc (even lawyers), and the salespeople were real sharks. The packages were tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was essentially pure theft wrapped in the illusion and romance of gemstones.

At first I felt very bad for the people. Then I started to lose sympathy because many of these folks bought because somebody told them what they wanted to hear, while those of us in the business of NOT stealing from people told the truth, that there is no free lunch. And so we did NOT get their business. Overall, I got very angry with the perpetrators knowing that they were doing untold damage to my profession. These folks, and all there friends, will never buy a gemstone again. And there were lots and lots of victims.

 

[WinkHPD]

I had just entered the business, so I did'nt have much of a frame of reference at the time. It was not until years later that I started to understand just how crazy that time was. There was a time in the mid 80's that I had weekly visits from individuals bringing in the gemstone 'investment' parcels that they had purchased and were trying to unload. Almost invariably the packaging was worth more than the gemstones. (I kid you not). And these victims were sophisticated professionals. The boiler room operations would get phone lists of doctors, accountants, etc (even lawyers), and the salespeople were real sharks. The packages were tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was essentially pure theft wrapped in the illusion and romance of gemstones.

At first I felt very bad for the people. Then I started to lose sympathy because many of these folks bought because somebody told them what they wanted to hear, while those of us in the business of NOT stealing from people told the truth, that there is no free lunch. And so we did NOT get their business. Overall, I got very angry with the perpetrators knowing that they were doing untold damage to my profession. These folks, and all there friends, will never buy a gemstone again. And there were lots and lots of victims.

In addition to the overgraded diamonds, I also saw a LOT of colored diamonds come in to my office from 1980 forward and still see an occasional parcel come in from an estate even today.

There was quite a trade in them going on in the barter networks. I remember one time a couple of "gentlemen" came into my office with a large parcel of gems they wanted looked at. They were all in plastic sealed boxes with bogus reports that included stupid high values. $0.25 per carat pale amethyst valued at $40/ct. That kind of junk. I charged them several hundred dollars, collected up front and did some serious research to find the current values.

When I met with them, I told them that the material supposedly worth around $200,000 might bring $1,500 to $2,000 if they were lucky enough to find someone who wanted it for their fish tank gravel.

The older guy looked at the younger guy who shook his head yes and they said that would be good enough to go ahead with the trade. I have no idea what they were trading for, but it sure convinced me I wanted no part of the local barter networks either.

I can not remember the guy's name that was putting out the bogus appraisals, but I commented to my staff that somebody was going to figure out how bad they were being cheated and shoot the guy.

A few months later, my manager came into the office and showed me a newspaper report where someone had gone into his store and opened fire on the guy.

Karma happens...

Wink

P.S. There were a couple of dedicated heroes back then. Antoinette Matlins, Cap Beasley and others were very helpful in chasing down the bad guys whenever possible and I actually was able to get a few people some or most of their money back, but very few. Most of the "investment goods" were sold at prices higher than my retail prices. When I closed my B&M office and went Internet only I put over seventy pounds of fraud files into storage and finally shredded them about seven years later.

I went to an investment opportunity meeting one evening for colored gems and the speaker called me out as a jeweler and asked me what I thought of the gems they were passing around. I said that they were very beautiful imitations, and if their real gems looked this good it might be a good deal, but that it would be impossible to tell by looking at imitations. He got a bit more hostile when I identified the gems as imitations and ended up not selling any at that meeting. I was impressed that this out of towner knew me by sight and real happy that I squelched his deal dead, at least for that evening.

Rambling on about bad things past and I have work to do. If is always nice to talk with another veteran of the "Investment Wars."

Wink

 

[LightBright]

Out of curiosity I went to the Ebay listing you gave us and could find no reference to fluorescence in the listing.

When I entered the diamond trade in 1975 I was taught at GIA that a Blue White was a colorless diamond that fluoresced a bluish color out of doors. While doing a google search to remind myself when in the 1930's that it was that the FTC banned the use of the term in selling diamonds I found this interesting article by Martin Rapaport written in April of 1998. I am posting just the first two paragraphs as they directly apply to this conversation.

Quote:

Once upon a time before the diamond industry standardized to GIA color grading terminology the term Blue White (Blauweiss) was used to describe the finest color white diamonds. The original Blue White diamonds came from South Africa's Jagersfontein mine. The best Jager stones were highly transparent (clear and colorless) with a bluish tint due to fluorescence. Ironically, during the early part of the 20th century fluorescence was seen as something that had a very positive impact on top colors. The extra sparkle fluorescence provided when the diamond was seen face up in sunlight was accepted as verification of the diamonds high color. Blue White diamonds were avidly sought out by the trade and consumers who paid higher prices for diamonds with fluorescence. Contrary to current market conditions, fluorescence added value to high color diamonds.

Now the history of what happened to fluorescence is very interesting and informative. The trade had something very good going with fluorescent Blue White diamonds, but they blew it. Instead of maintaining consumer confidence in Blue White the trade began selling all types of lower color diamonds as Blue White. The term Blue White and the underlying concept that blue (i.e. fluorescence) added value to white (colorless) diamonds was so abused by the trade that in 1938 the U.S. Federal Trade Commission outlawed the use of the term Blue White for anything but blue diamonds.

End Quote.

Mr. Rapaport does not talk about one of my pet theories as to why fluorescence is now normally a negative in the pricing of a diamond. In 1975 I would often pay a premium for fluorescent diamonds. The more beautiful and bluish the diamond was out of doors, the higher the premium I would have to pay.

Then when the diamond investment craze hit the public in the late 70's, people who knew nothing about diamonds were hired to sell diamonds as investments from telephone sweatshops. They did not know, nor did they have the time to learn that a small percentage of the fluorescent diamonds might be ugly out of doors. Since everything sold by the sweat shops had to have a diamond grading report and last weeks lady's shoe salesmen did not understand what fluorescence was and its possible additional beauty, or detriment, the buyers for the sweatshops just would not buy fluorescent diamonds and they became a hard item to sell.

It needs to be further understood, that at this time, most retailers did not need or use Diamond Grading reports. They were trusted members of the community and expected to be knowledgeable about the items they were selling. As a recent GIA Graduate Gemologist, I had been appalled at the low level of expertise of not only many of the retailers, but of the wholesalers, who consistently graded diamonds from one to three color and clarity grades than I did. I quickly started buying only GIA documented diamonds, as even though they cost more per carat, they saved me a lot of postage and arguing with vendors about their inaccurate grading.

I personally feel that one of the few good things to come out of the investment craze was the increase in the popularity and knowledge of the existence of Diamond Grading reports. Of course, most of the labs being used at the time were bogus sweatshops their own sweet smelly selves and were quickly exposed as frauds, although nothing was ever done about them by the government. GIA, of course, was the preeminent laboratory and was the one that rose above the others in reputation and quality. AGS would not create their own lab until many years later. (They only did it because GIA would not institute a good cut grade for their reports.)

Just a few thoughts about Blue Whites and lab grading reports.

Wink

Thanks Wink.
That Rapaport article is very interesting to me. My understanding is that Golconda diamonds were also called Blue White, though I thought they lacked flourescence. I have seen several fluorescent diamonds in person. Some were newly cut MRB pieces I purposely bought and were considering. Some were old cuts, therefore stones from old mines. Of all the strongly fluorescent diamonds I’ve seen, most turned violetish blue in sunlight. One Transitional cut stone (old mine) turned medium purple. However, one strongly fluorescent Old Mine Cut turned a light faint pure baby blue in sunlight. In other words the glow this diamond had in direct sunlight was a light baby blue with NO purplish tones. It was magnificent. I actually thought it might be a Golconda, but again, my understanding about Golconda diamonds was that they lacked flourescence. So maybe this Old Mine Cut Stone was from a South African mine? Which meant it truly was old. (The cut certainly indicated that it was.) One thing that is FASCINATING to me is the diversity of the diamond rough from various mines, which, annoyingly, no one ever talks about and consumers are kept in the dark about. Just like the world of regionally mined turquoise, in which I used to dabble, it seems that diamond mines also produce diamonds with slightly different and identifiable internal characteristics. Like flourescence.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I had an eye dr appt yesterday, and took this opportunity to ask her about the earlier-posted concept regarding cones and color sensitivity. She said she supposed that it could play into one’s sensitivity to identifying colors, but that there really wasn’t any way that she knew of to measure how many cones one has (prior to them being deceased) to definitely make that determination in any one individual.

For those who attribute their color sensitivity (ability to see minute differences in color - not a preference for higher color per se) to this reason, I’m curious how you might have come to that conclusion.

 

[redwood66]

I have taken the posted test several times and always score a 1 or 2 but I must be a carrier of the colorblindness as my dad and both my sons are red/green deficient. The optometrist corrects me when I use the term colorblind as it's actually color deficient. That said I like my lower color L diamond because it is the biggest and prettiest I would spend $ on. Any more is too much for me. It is very pretty because it is an extremely well cut antique stone - VS1 doesn't hurt either. It's an added bonus that the Rap value has gone up rather than down. Though it might have been this particular stone because I likely would never have spent as much as I did otherwise. It makes me happy and it also makes DH happy to see me happy. Win win.