How common are lower color grades in nature?

[glitterata]

I know this has been discussed before, but I''ve never seen a satisfying answer. Maybe the problem is that nobody knows the answer, even miners? Could that possibly be true?

Anyway, now that I''m the thrilled owner of an S color diamond Cut by Infinity, I''m wondering how rare or common S and similar colors are. When I discussed this with Wink he said they were very rare--he doesn''t come across them very often. But I wondered whether that was just because they''re considered undesirable and therefore not cut and sold, not because miners don''t often find them.

I''ve heard that Ds are rare and fancy yellows are rare, while Js, Ks, and Ls are more common. (I''m talking about in the mines, not in stores.) Where does the graph start moving up again? Are Os, Ps, and Qs more common than JKLs or less common? Are Ss more common than Ds or less common?

Is it even true that Ds are more rarely found in nature than, say, Gs, or is that just a marketing myth?

 

[strmrdr]

The darker colors are more common in nature in most mines but it varies mine to mine.
Not many cutters want to cut them because it is hard to find a buyer but they are more popular than they once where.
The exact mix a mine produces is considered proprietary information and not released to the public that I have found.

My feeling is they are far more common than is reflected on the market.

Many if they don't have a brown undertone will be cut into radiants to try and get a fancy grade.

 

[Moh 10]

I was led to believe rarity decreased as you went down in color.

Sales numbers for diamonds probably peaks at about color I or so.

Above I nature establishes rarity of what we see for sale.
Well below I I''d think that lower market demand increases rarity of not what nature provides but of what is for sale.

My guess.

 

[BCEagle03]

I do not know about the lower colors but when we were looking at diamonds I was told that less than 3% of diamonds are D or E in color.

 

[glitterata]

Well, I assume Fancy Vivid Yellow diamonds are rare in nature and Ks are common. But where does that curve hit its bottom? Are Ts common but not often cut because they''re considered unattractive? Or are they rare in nature? Are Fancy Light Yellow Diamonds more rare in nature than Ws, or are they just more expensive because they''re considered more attractive?

Does anyone know?

I''m hoping David of Diamonds by Lauren will chime in, since he has lots of experience with these colors.

 

[strmrdr]

What makes then rare is the lack of a brown under or over tone once you get into the fancy yellow colors.
Brown is the kiss of death on value.

 

[Lorelei]

Also you can get TTLB ( top tinted light brown or top top light brown) or TLB ( top light brown) which from what I understand are cheaper diamonds which face up whitish but have a distinct brown tint from the side.

 

[glitterata]

So are yellow S, T, U colors without any brown in them rare?

Leaving aside the question of brown or brownish diamonds, how common are the pure yellow versions of the lower end of the color scale, before you hit fancies?

Assuming that there''s really a curve that''s high at D and high again at fancy yellow grades but low in the middle, where is that low point? I''m just talking about yellow stones, without any brown in them.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/15/2009 4:59:44 PM
Author: glitterata
So are yellow S, T, U colors without any brown in them rare?


Leaving aside the question of brown or brownish diamonds, how common are the pure yellow versions of the lower end of the color scale, before you hit fancies?


Assuming that there''s really a curve that''s high at D and high again at fancy yellow grades but low in the middle, where is that low point? I''m just talking about yellow stones, without any brown in them.

I don''t think anyone knows outside of the mine owners and maybe rough buyers.
It will vary a lot mine to mine

 

[geoffreysnow]

i''m wondering too maybe GIA S''s are rare because not many are submitted for grading knowing that they are the low in color and the demand is less than the typical range. Perhaps diamonds that low in color are submitted to EGL or sold ungraded.

Also how much does it cost to facet a stone when typically going through a parcel? It might be that lower colors are commonly mined, just they less commonly reach the faceting wheel.

but I have no idea, i''m not an expert.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Everyone!
Glitterata, CONGRATULATIONS!
I''m sure the stone is stunning in person!

If we are discussing GIA terminology, there is no "S" color- the grade is "S-T" color.

I can''t speak for the mines, but I am quite familiar with the polished market in NYC, and Israel.
I used to work for a South African Siteholder that polished large quantities of "cape" stones. However the parcels of colorless and near colorless they polished were similar in size.
I can''t say if that was nature, or DeBeers.....

Today, there are not a whole lot of stones in the S-T range on the market.
Another aspect which has not been mentioned: Stones in the light cape ranges make great candidates for those who irradiate diamonds.
TTLB''s in particular have practically disappeared from the market ( they were common in the ''80''s) as if you want to get a treated blue, you need to start with a brown.

IMO the price difference between a D, and an S-T is more about established market preference than rarity.

 

[glitterata]

Thank you for posting, David! I knew your experience would give you insight into the question. Would you surmise that D-F rough is, in fact, rarer than S-T rough? I know you can''t say for sure, but what''s your guess?

Your point about brown stones being irradiated is very interesting. Has that raised the price of brown/brownish diamonds? That is, do irradiated blue diamonds sell for more money than they would have if they''d stayed their natural color? Or are they the same price, just easier to sell?

My stone was graded by AGS, not GIA. Its color is described as "(S) AGS 7.5." It has strong blue fluorescence, which makes it look a teeny bit green sometimes in bright indirect sunlight.

If rough the color of my new diamond is common, I''m surprised people don''t cut it into gems like this more often. It really is amazingly attractive. I find this S much prettier than the mid-range colors--the J, K, L, M''s. I''m sure the cut makes a big difference, but it really surprises me that material for this beautiful stone exists out there but is so rarely made into gems like this. I would expect to pay MORE for a diamond this attractive than for, say, a J--not much, much less, the way I did. (Not to rain on Js or anything--I have nothing against Js--but this S is just breathtaking.)

 

[diagem]

As a buyer of high quality rough..., D colored rough is not easy to come by.... (actualy..., its hard
And..., the larger you go..., the rarer it becomes!

Must also take into consideration that the majority of rough coming out of the ground is industrial grade...

Hope this helps...

 

[Rockdiamond]

You''re welcome Glitterata- and thank you!
I did not know that AGSL separated the grades into single letters down there- interesting....
It''s unusual to see AGSL report on Fancy Colors- or near facny colors. I know they exist- but in a minscluepercentage as compared to AGSL Colorless, and near colorless RBC reports....

HI Diagem-You''re correct- I suppose using D versus anything other than Intense yellow or some other fancy colors in rarity is inaccurate.
If we made it more general ....would you say near colorless ranges are less common than Cape Color ranges in 2-5ct Octahedrons- or other shaped rough?
I''m glad you stopped in as this is interesting to me!

 

[John P]

Date: 7/15/2009 6:19:57 PM
Author: glitterata

If rough the color of my new diamond is common, I'm surprised people don't cut it into gems like this more often. It really is amazingly attractive. I find this S much prettier than the mid-range colors--the J, K, L, M's. I'm sure the cut makes a big difference, but it really surprises me that material for this beautiful stone exists out there but is so rarely made into gems like this. I would expect to pay MORE for a diamond this attractive than for, say, a J--not much, much less, the way I did. (Not to rain on Js or anything--I have nothing against Js--but this S is just breathtaking.)

Your rarity question is a good one and the answers can be different depending on who you speak to.

On the question of "why aren't these colors made into gems," I recalled this post from a while ago (de ja glitterata?)

- it's cool that you've continued to pursue this line of thinking, to the point of seeing what's possible firsthand.

I replied there and would mention again in this thread that, in addition to cape and below as color prospects, some cutters will look to cut a shape and configuration which will enhance body color enough to grade as fancy.

I'm reminded of another thread DG started, which I found very engaging.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-light-yellow-fancy-or-cape.66898/

 

[glitterata]

Aha! Am I repeating myself? Am I repeating myself? Am I repeating myself?

Thanks for reminding me of that thread, John.

 

[John P]

But of course my lady - it was a fun thread. And your current question is a great one (getting myself some popcorn).

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Hi Glitterata,

I think you have purchased a very stunning and remarkable diamond. You are asking a very intriguing question, one that reaches to the very heart of the diamond business. I think the only people suitable to really answer the question would be a company like DeBeers. They see the production of many mines all over the world and would be one of the few organizations to be able to answer it based on actual data, versus the speculation we can do here. Something tells me though, that they wont be to forthcoming with the info, as the inner details of the industry are generally kept on a need to know basis...

All I can say, is that each mine is different, and the mix of stones that come out can vary widely.

Back to your pretty diamond...

Interesting enough, when I was in Vegas, I was lucky enough to have dinner with the Infinity crew, and I remember them asking me if I would consider an SI1 diamond. Of course I said yes, but then they made sure restate that it was an S I1 diamond, it definitely threw me for a loop, to say the least. I think your diamond might have very well been the stone in question. Glad to see it is being fully appreciated!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/15/2009 9:27:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
You''re welcome Glitterata- and thank you!
I did not know that AGSL separated the grades into single letters down there- interesting....
It''s unusual to see AGSL report on Fancy Colors- or near facny colors. I know they exist- but in a minscluepercentage as compared to AGSL Colorless, and near colorless RBC reports....

HI Diagem-You''re correct- I suppose using D versus anything other than Intense yellow or some other fancy colors in rarity is inaccurate.
If we made it more general ....would you say near colorless ranges are less common than Cape Color ranges in 2-5ct Octahedrons- or other shaped rough?
I''m glad you stopped in as this is interesting to me!

I believe my writing in the above post answered your ''more general'' question...

Obviously (IMO)..., the more colorless and free of inclusions the material..., the rarer it is..., doesnt matter if rough or polished...
In regards to yellows..., (IMO)..., the genuine fancy colored yellows (saturated Intenses and darker hue''s in regular colorless cuts) are less common than just the Cape''s (which are the majority of (light) fancy cut yellows on the markets these days) colored material.

We are not talking special (pink, blues, reds, greens etc...) natural colors now..., right?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

The ''logical'' idea is that D-colour is the rarest, and that rarity declines with colour going down.

However, when buying rough, this does not appear to be confirmed. Depending on the origin, you have another colour-distribution, and somewhere down the line in colour, rarity seems to go up again.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/17/2009 8:43:28 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
The ''logical'' idea is that D-colour is the rarest, and that rarity declines with colour going down.

However, when buying rough, this does not appear to be confirmed. Depending on the origin, you have another colour-distribution, and somewhere down the line in colour, rarity seems to go up again.

Live long,

True..., but it depends on the intensity and of the color in its rough stage...

Yellow/Cape rough transformed into "fancy colored" Diamonds dont apply!

 

[Lula]

Intereting topic, Glitterata!

Paul, DiaGem, I have wondered about the relationship between lower color (M and below) and higher clarity (VS1 and above). It seems like some of them most beautiful stones posted here have the lowerer color-higher clarity combos (think of the O VVS2 Infinity Wink made a video of =540&src=loupe:2o8h065d]link to O and Good Old Gold's O IF GOG).

To me, these stones are extraordinary and seem to be as rare (at least in the marketplace) as D IF's.

Perhaps it's because the lower colors are most often seen in poorly cut maul stones with I3 clarity that these examples stand out?

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/17/2009 11:20:22 AM
Author: sarap333
Intereting topic, Glitterata!

Paul, DiaGem, I have wondered about the relationship between lower color (M and below) and higher clarity (VS1 and above). It seems like some of them most beautiful stones posted here have the lowerer color-higher clarity combos (think of the O VVS2 Infinity Wink made a video of =540&src=loupe:2o8h065d]link to O and Good Old Gold''s O IF GOG).

To me, these stones are extraordinary and seem to be as rare (at least in the marketplace) as D IF''s.

Perhaps it''s because the lower colors are most often seen in poorly cut maul stones with I3 clarity that these examples stand out?

Not quite as rare by nature as D-Fl''s..., but rare in the huge polished markets...

There are three options when cutting this type of material...

A) What mostly happens is they are cut in mass-production houses for fast and huge sales/turnovers.... (the majority!)

B) As John P. mentioned (above) and I elaborated..., they are cut to ''tricky'' cuts and (mass) marketed as RARE (light or) fancy yellows (full reports for the high clarity and color-only reports for the included ones).

C) Boutique cutting houses (like the ones you mention above) cut them to superior cuts and market them as an ''added value - lower price'' point Diamonds which are reachable to the ones who dont want to spend big $$$ on beautiful Diamonds.

 

[Lula]

A very helpful and illuminating answer, Diagem, thanks. I am such a fan of these boutique cut, lower color-high clarity RB''s that I may choose one for my upgrade. I guess they are rare in the marketplace because they do go against everything the diamond industry has marketed to consumers about what a beautiful diamond should look like; maybe that''s why I like them so much

 

[Rockdiamond]

Diagem- In my experience, radiant and cushion cuts in the S-Z ranges are not mass marketed at all.
It's true that some of the sellers disregard the accurate GIA report, in lieu of a substandard report calling a W-X an Intense Yellow. The term "mass market" makes it sound like there's a lot of these goods on the market. Compared to commercial colorless and near colorless , ranges from S-Z are not all that common. It makes most sense to a lot of cutters to use this rough as radiant or cushion which will allow the color to show better.

My experience is that some of the best cutters of fancy colors in the world also polish gorgeous stones in the lighter ranges. One example might be a large octahedron which is sewn so that the larger piece is a Fancy Yellow, while the smaller "top" may come out as a W-X.
Or, when the goods are purchased at tender, it is more feasible to buy the capes along with the fancy colors. IN essence, to get the rough for intense yellow they may have to purchase some of the S-Z range rough.
Most of these companies do not cut many rounds- it's a different specialty. Therefore the goods are cut into attractive light yellow stones ( in the best case scenario)


Maybe Infinity will start a trend towards more of this rough being cut into rounds....they certainly are beautiful!

 

[Amethyste]

When I had my lemony pear appraised, she said that to find a VVS2 clarity, W to X color in the 5+carat range like mine would be TRULY an impossible task to fill. She suggested me to never loose it... lol

I don''t see much lower colors for sale on websites... its a shame, they are so beautiful.

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/17/2009 11:06:50 PM
Author: Amethyste
When I had my lemony pear appraised, she said that to find a VVS2 clarity, W to X color in the 5+carat range like mine would be TRULY an impossible task to fill. She suggested me to never loose it... lol

I don''t see much lower colors for sale on websites... its a shame, they are so beautiful.

I take it your pear is cut to a standard colorless brilliant cut...
Most cutters will recut your 5+ ct into a 4ct *hoping* for fancy color tricky modified pear...

The calculation=

5 ct lemony W-Y is worth *A* on the open market...
4 ct fancy yellow (face up) is worth *A* x 2 or more....

 

[Amethyste]

Date: 7/18/2009 1:28:00 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 7/17/2009 11:06:50 PM

Author: Amethyste

When I had my lemony pear appraised, she said that to find a VVS2 clarity, W to X color in the 5+carat range like mine would be TRULY an impossible task to fill. She suggested me to never loose it... lol


I don't see much lower colors for sale on websites... its a shame, they are so beautiful.

I take it your pear is cut to a standard colorless brilliant cut...

Most cutters will recut your 5+ ct into a 4ct *hoping* for fancy color tricky modified pear...


The calculation=


5 ct lemony W-Y is worth *A* on the open market...

4 ct fancy yellow (face up) is worth *A* x 2 or more....

My pear was cut in a modified brilliant cut already.
Besides, even if they tried to cut it into something else until the cows come home,
my pear would NEVER get the fancy yellow color grade: You cannot trick a strong fluorescence.

 

[glitterata]

My Infinity S also has strong blue fluorescence. I wonder whether that had anything to do with the decision to cut it as an Infinity rather than try for a fancy yellow in a fancy cut?

Paul/John/Wink, thoughts?

BTW, Amethyste, I love your yellow pear!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/18/2009 1:28:00 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 7/17/2009 11:06:50 PM
Author: Amethyste
When I had my lemony pear appraised, she said that to find a VVS2 clarity, W to X color in the 5+carat range like mine would be TRULY an impossible task to fill. She suggested me to never loose it... lol

I don''t see much lower colors for sale on websites... its a shame, they are so beautiful.

I take it your pear is cut to a standard colorless brilliant cut...
Most cutters will recut your 5+ ct into a 4ct *hoping* for fancy color tricky modified pear...

The calculation=

5 ct lemony W-Y is worth *A* on the open market...
4 ct fancy yellow (face up) is worth *A* x 2 or more....

that''s the magic word...add the word "fancy" to a diamond it makes the diamond sound more rare.