shape
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How closely are you following Trump's trial, and aftermath?

How closely are you following Trump's trial, and aftermath?

  • Not at all

    Votes: 17 25.8%
  • Very little

    Votes: 17 25.8%
  • Little

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Averagely

    Votes: 11 16.7%
  • Much

    Votes: 3 4.5%
  • Very much

    Votes: 10 15.2%
  • As much as possible

    Votes: 4 6.1%

  • Total voters
    66
  • Poll closed .

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
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Okay not impeachable (which you say but I don't get but okay) what is the proper punishment for what Trump did?

I have never said he should have done this. I have always said it was wrong/bad form but not impeachable IMO.

Edit - what does that have to do with not being surprised or upset that he reassigned Vindman anyway?
 

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
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And we all know about the word 'hearsay'' and 'jealousy'. Peole say things because they are jealous. Happens quite a lot actually.

Thank you @MollyMalone for your perspective. Nice contacts you have there. ;))

Edit - Your friend does also know that not all verbal counseling is recorded or taken further as well though. Happens quite a lot actually.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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I'd much prefer that someone who thinks I'm being dishonest would call me out for making it up than couching their disbelief in winking-face innuendo.

I wasn't doing that at all and sorry you feel that way. It was an actual compliment and thanks.

It's unfortunate for the conversation you would assume this. I always appreciate your input and do not think you would lie about anything.
 
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redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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Okay not impeachable (which you say but I don't get but okay) what is the proper punishment for what Trump did?

Voting him out? Which I also said as well. The voters will decide in Nov.
 

MissyBeaucoup

Brilliant_Rock
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I am deeply concerned about how our country can come back together and heal from the divisions we’ve suffered. There is disinformation that keeps people from working with the same set of facts. I normally trust the collective wisdom of the voters, because we are not stupid. But social media tribalism, cable “entertainment-news”, and pathological liars have really changed the landscape.

I have hope that our country can survive this, but I fear we are slipping into voter supression.
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
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I wasn't doing that at all and sorry you feel that way. It was an actual compliment and thanks.

It's unfortunate for the conversation you would assume this. I always appreciate your input and do not think you would lie about anything.
I really appreciate this, red. I wouldn't have composed a compliment as you did, but your reply is a very good reminder to me of how, as kenny says, "people vary." And that online conversations have the built-in handicap of not being face-to-face.

Again, big thanks ~ me, Molly
 

redwood66

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I really appreciate this, red. I wouldn't have composed a compliment as you did, but your reply is a very good reminder to me of how, as kenny says, "people vary." And that online conversations have the built-in handicap of not being face-to-face.

Again, big thanks ~ me, Molly

Thank you.
 

Dancing Fire

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I have hope that our country can survive this, but I fear we are slipping into voter supression.
Only white people can vote in 2020? :confused: My Chinese vote doesn't count?
 

jaaron

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The Tennesse
He says that if Hickman's allegations about Vindman's remarks at Atlas Vision 2013 (computer-based training in Germany for a small group of US and Russian army troops) are true, one would expect that Hickman and/or Thomas Lasch, Hickman's commanding officer would have documented them, and his reprimand, at the time. Further, he would expect such a report , if verified, would mean that Vindman would not have been assigned in September 2018 to NSC.

Thank you, Molly Malone, for your well-considered post. Additionally, I know I'm not the only person to think that it defies logic that Vindman, a fluent Russian speaker, would have denigrated the US in English, to Russians, in front of his colleagues.
 

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
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That isn't punishment, he's got the electoral college on his side. Not enough. He is disgusting and unAmerican. History will deplore him. He will be reported as the worst president ever.


Voting him out? Which I also said as well. The voters will decide in Nov.
 

JPie

Ideal_Rock
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@Tekate that reminds me of what I was thinking earlier about how voters already decided in 2016. I don’t know if the founding fathers had realized when they came up with the Electoral College that it would leave us with tyranny of the minority.
 

Karl_K

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@Tekate that reminds me of what I was thinking earlier about how voters already decided in 2016. I don’t know if the founding fathers had realized when they came up with the Electoral College that it would leave us with tyranny of the minority.
It worked exactly as intended to protect the smaller states from the tyranny of the larger states.
 

JPie

Ideal_Rock
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It worked exactly as intended to protect the smaller states from the tyranny of the larger states.

That’s oversimplifying the original intent a bit. For example, Hamilton thought that the Electoral College would prevent someone with “talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity” from being elected, but he was pretty wrong about that. How could he have predicted Trump’s weaponization of social media and Fox News as a propaganda mill?

Regardless, the point is that the majority of voters did choose Clinton over Trump in 2016.

The Federalist Papers no. 68
The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications. Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States
 

JPie

Ideal_Rock
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As apposed to the liberal propaganda mills of cnn, mbc, and abc?

There’s a difference between having a liberal bias vs spewing outright lies as facts.
 

bludiva

Ideal_Rock
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That isn't punishment, he's got the electoral college on his side. Not enough. He is disgusting and unAmerican. History will deplore him. He will be reported as the worst president ever.

He's already taking his place with GWB at the bottom of the rankings for modern presidents.

If you look historically, we've had a lot of doozies (see: Andrew Johnson), and we've recovered, and that gives me hope for the future.
 

bludiva

Ideal_Rock
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There’s a difference between having a liberal bias vs spewing outright lies as facts.

I agree 100% but feel that a lot of news outlets have done themselves a disservice in the big picture by mixing news shows with opinion shows in an effort to fill 24 hours of programming a day. Left and right (esp Fox)
 

JPie

Ideal_Rock
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I agree 100% but feel that a lot of news outlets have done themselves a disservice in the big picture by mixing news shows with opinion shows in an effort to fill 24 hours of programming a day. Left and right (esp Fox)

Absolutely. I can’t stand to watch any news networks and prefer to read The Guardian, NPR, and BBC when I want the news. Even then, I rarely read opinion pieces unless it’s about something trivial like entertainment.
 

Tekate

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So? now we have tyranny of a minority over a majority, that's not fair either. the majority pays more taxes and uses less public funds. Pffft.


It worked exactly as intended to protect the smaller states from the tyranny of the larger states.
 

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
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It worked exactly as intended to protect the smaller states from the tyranny of the larger states.

States that pay the most federal taxes 2019:

taxes.png

States that use the most federal aid.


States that Trump carried in electoral college


Houston, we have a problem. I do not want to be governed by a minority of voters. The people who pay more federal taxes should have a say in how their money is spent. Tired of MY American money funding war, rich people, and the elite.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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States that pay the most federal taxes 2019:

taxes.png

States that use the most federal aid.


States that Trump carried in electoral college


Houston, we have a problem. I do not want to be governed by a minority of voters. The people who pay more federal taxes should have a say in how their money is spent. Tired of MY American money funding war, rich people, and the elite.

Perhaps the answer is less federal government involvement and more state. Then your state can spend its funds how its taxpayers see fit. ;-) Just a little poke back at you.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Houston, we have a problem. I do not want to be governed by a minority of voters. The people who pay more federal taxes should have a say in how their money is spent. Tired of MY American money funding war, rich people, and the elite.
I'm tired of my tax $$$ funding the entitlists.
 

jaaron

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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Perhaps the answer is less federal government involvement and more state. Then your state can spend its funds how its taxpayers see fit. ;-) Just a little poke back at you.

At this point, I suspect NY and California would be relatively happy with that arrangement. In a bit of turnabout on Republican tradition, this administration has been very happy to meddle in state issues when it suits...er, I mean, when they want to administer paybacks for insults to the bloviating tangerine. Car emissions in CA, trusted traveller in NY, come to mind.

Sorta like how all these dyed in the wool 'originalists' have suddenly developed a waaaay different view of constitutionally mandated powers...
 

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
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I've never complained about my taxes Red, we've paid a lot to the feds and I most times do not concern myself with how it's spent.. I don't like my money spent on war. In an ideal world yup each state could tax their constituents as they see fit, but I see our country as a country, what's the use of us being united states? what does that mean, the united states of america? we are no longer united that is very clear. I wouldn't mind if we split up into country(states) like Europe, I'm perfectly fine with that. In my view I think we are(were) a community and we all throw our money into the big bucket and we spend it fairly and we give helping hands to those in need, we fund the military, we have national standards for education, if we want to believe in a deity, we can but keep it out of schools and public funded places.. I don't think of myself as a socialist, I think of myself as a social democrat, different from a socialist.

:cool2::wavey:


Perhaps the answer is less federal government involvement and more state. Then your state can spend its funds how its taxpayers see fit. ;-) Just a little poke back at you.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Trump has been empowered by his Senate acquittal to abuse his office and to act corruptly even more. Read the article excerpted below. He is interfering in the case of Roger Stone, his stalwart ally as he calls for Lt Colonel Vindman, who committed no crime, to be punished.


"Prosecutors Quit Roger Stone Case After Justice Dept. Intervenes on Sentencing"

"President Trump had complained that the recommendation of seven to nine years in prison for his former adviser and longtime friend was a 'miscarriage of justice.'”


"WASHINGTON — Four prosecutors abruptly withdrew on Tuesday from the case of President Trump’s longtime friend Roger J. Stone Jr. after senior Justice Department officials intervened to recommend a more lenient sentence for crimes he committed in a bid to protect the president.

In an extraordinary decision overruling career lawyers, the Justice Department recommended an unspecified term of incarceration for Mr. Stone instead of the prosecutors’ request of a punishment of seven to nine years. The move coincided with Mr. Trump’s declaration on Twitter early Tuesday that the government was treating Mr. Stone too harshly.

The development immediately prompted questions about whether the Justice Department was bending to White House pressure. The gulf between the prosecutors and their Justice Department superiors burst into public view the week before Mr. Stone was to be sentenced for trying to sabotage a congressional investigation that had posed a threat to Mr. Trump.

The prosecutors — one of whom resigned from the department — were said to be furious over the reversal of their sentencing request, filed in federal court late Monday. The Stone case was one of the most high-profile criminal prosecutions arising from the nearly two-year investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III.

The development added to the sense of turmoil in Washington that has followed Mr. Trump’s acquittal by the Senate six days ago on charges of abuse of power and obstructing Congress. With the impeachment case behind him, Mr. Trump fired an ambassador while his national security adviser dismissed an aide; both had testified against the president in the impeachment hearings.
The president added to the sense of unease late Tuesday, taking aim at Judge Amy Berman Jackson of the Federal District Court in Washington, who is scheduled to sentence Mr. Stone on Feb. 20.

In one post, he suggested she would treat Mr. Stone even worse than what 'even mobster Al Capone had to endure.'

He added, 'All starting to unravel with the ridiculous 9 year sentence recommendation!'"

 

OboeGal

Brilliant_Rock
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Trump has been empowered by his Senate acquittal to abuse his office and to act corruptly even more. Read the article excerpted below. He is interfering in the case of Roger Stone, his stalwart ally as he calls for Lt Colonel Vindman, who committed no crime, to be punished.


"Prosecutors Quit Roger Stone Case After Justice Dept. Intervenes on Sentencing"

"President Trump had complained that the recommendation of seven to nine years in prison for his former adviser and longtime friend was a 'miscarriage of justice.'”


"WASHINGTON — Four prosecutors abruptly withdrew on Tuesday from the case of President Trump’s longtime friend Roger J. Stone Jr. after senior Justice Department officials intervened to recommend a more lenient sentence for crimes he committed in a bid to protect the president.

In an extraordinary decision overruling career lawyers, the Justice Department recommended an unspecified term of incarceration for Mr. Stone instead of the prosecutors’ request of a punishment of seven to nine years. The move coincided with Mr. Trump’s declaration on Twitter early Tuesday that the government was treating Mr. Stone too harshly.

The development immediately prompted questions about whether the Justice Department was bending to White House pressure. The gulf between the prosecutors and their Justice Department superiors burst into public view the week before Mr. Stone was to be sentenced for trying to sabotage a congressional investigation that had posed a threat to Mr. Trump.

The prosecutors — one of whom resigned from the department — were said to be furious over the reversal of their sentencing request, filed in federal court late Monday. The Stone case was one of the most high-profile criminal prosecutions arising from the nearly two-year investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III.

The development added to the sense of turmoil in Washington that has followed Mr. Trump’s acquittal by the Senate six days ago on charges of abuse of power and obstructing Congress. With the impeachment case behind him, Mr. Trump fired an ambassador while his national security adviser dismissed an aide; both had testified against the president in the impeachment hearings.
The president added to the sense of unease late Tuesday, taking aim at Judge Amy Berman Jackson of the Federal District Court in Washington, who is scheduled to sentence Mr. Stone on Feb. 20.

In one post, he suggested she would treat Mr. Stone even worse than what 'even mobster Al Capone had to endure.'

He added, 'All starting to unravel with the ridiculous 9 year sentence recommendation!'"


This had several of my hubby's closest friends and family in Europe - all well-educated, responsible, productive, disciplined, and civic-minded people - stating today that the US has gone banana republic.
 
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Tekate

Ideal_Rock
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@OboeGal They are right, we are a banana republic and many of us are so proud of it.. better to be a fascist, kleptocracy than what we once were, a group of many peoples but all had each other's back.. hey hey not now, now it's ME and my taxes, me and what I want, me and my god, it's disgusting, the lack of compassion that is supported by 'americans', we are viewed as liars, pathetic, useless, uncaring humans by others, not far off the mark.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
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This had several of my hubby's closest friends and family in Europe - all well-educated, responsible, productive, disciplined, and civic-minded people - stating today that the US has gone banana republic.

Yes, OboeGal, I agree with their assessment. We currently have a banana republic which is a dictatorship or an absolute monarchy; that is the problem. But what is the solution? Many of us are unwilling to accept a banana republic as a permanent way of life and would like to return to Constitutional norms. In other words, we would like to keep the republic that Benjamin Franklin challenged us to keep.
 
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