How closely are you following Trump's trial, and aftermath?

[AGBF]

Because I would not expect ANY administration to keep a subversive who reports to political opponents within its ranks. To say otherwise is partisan sour grapes.

Frankly I'm amazed that anyone is surprised or upset about it. He is the POTUS and can have the staff he wants in his administration. He is the CIC of the military btw.

One reason I am upset about it, although not a bit surprised, is that Lt Colonel Vindman was given multiple promises, some in writing, by the Secretary of Defense (Mark Esper) and by the army that they would not effect any retribution for his truthful testimony.

But a much more important one would be that what he did by giving clarity to the president's offense was a service to the country: he protected the United States from a president that was betraying it for personal reasons. He is also a decorated war veteran. Surely someone should be able to stop an impeached and treacherous president from continuing to dishonor his office.

 

[House Cat]

The president behaves unlawfully....people possess knowledge of the president’s unlawful actions...those people are called to testify...they do so and tell the truth about the president’s actions...now they are being punished by the president?

I see a very big flaw in this string of events. This president is out of control and is being supported by people who are blinded by partisan politics...plain and simple.

 

[Tekate]

Who in God's name said he was subversive, he was a whistle blower. There is no mention anywhere that I read that he was 'subversive' what's your idea of being an American?

I know that the jerk who's become our king/fuhrer can hire and fire, what I don't think any president should so is to retaliate against a decorated officer who found what cheetoh said as possibly a high misdemeanor and I think a HIGH crime, whether a president was a democrat or republican, if I voted a human into the presidency by my one man one vote and he/she did this stuff I'd want them impeached and OUT. We are not a oligarchy although republicans act as we are.

What's up next for Trump? shoot someone who he thinks is a 'subversive'.. we are on a bad bad road to hell.

Because I would not expect ANY administration to keep a subversive who reports to political opponents within its ranks. To say otherwise is partisan sour grapes.

Frankly I'm amazed that anyone is surprised or upset about it. He is the POTUS and can have the staff he wants in his administration. He is the CIC of the military btw.

 

[Calliecake]

@AGBF Deb, Mark Esper stated yesterday the Pentagon protects it’s service members from retribution and that Vindman and his brother will be welcomed. Trump also fired Lt. Col. Vindman’s brother yesterday.

Ask yourself for one moment @Redwood how you would feel if Trump were a democrat? At what point do you put the country first? What would have to happen for you to say what he is doing is wrong?

 

[redwood66]

I would expect ANY administration to reassign such a person and already said that. Why do any of you think he should be allowed to remain in his position when there are obvious differences of opinion on foreign policy? Why would he want to stay? Why is this such a big deal? Do you think anyone will trust him again? Trump should keep him because Democrats say he should? Would Obama have kept him if Rs said he should? Come on now.

@Tekate Trump's not out so now everyone has to move on from here.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Meanwhile, more good news for our country means more bad news for the Dems.

US adds 225,000 jobs in January, unemployment rate rises slightly to 3.6%

The U.S. economy added a solid 225,000 jobs in January, according to the latest jobs report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics released Friday.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Matata]

Meanwhile, more good news for our country means more bad news for the Dems.

Low-wage work is more pervasive than you think, and there aren’t enough “good jobs” to go around | Brookings

Even as the U.S. economy hums along at a favorable pace, there is a vast segment of workers today earning wages low enough to leave their livelihood and families extremely vulnerable.

www.brookings.edu

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

Col. Vindman was a first hand witness. He was on the call to Zelenski. He does help make foreign policy. He sits on the NSC.

However, I agree with Red, why would anyone expect someone who testified against them to be kept on.? This was to be expected. He is reassigned. Which is what they should have done with Yovonovitch (Ambass).

Trump not shaking hands with Pelosi should also be expected. Pelosi tearing his speech also should be expected. Harmless drama.

No business person would do less.

Annette

Yes df. It is now 3.6 unemployment, but he didn't create more jobs than Obama.

 

[bludiva]

I would expect ANY administration to reassign such a person and already said that. Why do any of you think he should be allowed to remain in his position when there are obvious differences of opinion on foreign policy? Why would he want to stay? Why is this such a big deal? Do you think anyone will trust him again? Trump should keep him because Democrats say he should? Would Obama have kept him if Rs said he should? Come on now.

@Tekate Trump's not out so now everyone has to move on from here.

the reassignment itself would not be surprising and i don't think it would be a big deal if it had been done properly.

instead, you have don jr bragging on twitter about firing people; col. vindman escorted out - underscoring that he's been fired for bad behavior, not reassigned; his brother is also fired/reassigned; an army of bots attacking vindman online ....it's a bad look for trump.

i watched his testimony and what i saw was someone who looked very uncomfortable being there, not someone seeking to do an end run around the president. anyway, shabby treatment for someone who served the country for many years, even if people dislike his testimony.

 

[redwood66]

the reassignment itself would not be surprising and i don't think it would be a big deal if it had been done properly.

instead, you have don jr bragging on twitter about firing people; col. vindman escorted out - underscoring that he's been fired for bad behavior, not reassigned; his brother is also fired/reassigned; an army of bots attacking vindman online ....it's a bad look for trump.

i watched his testimony and what i saw was someone who looked very uncomfortable being there, not someone seeking to do an end run around the president. anyway, shabby treatment for someone who served the country for many years, even if people dislike his testimony.

I watched his testimony and saw a smug bureaucrat irritated that his opinion on policy was being questioned. People he worked with didn't think much of his opinion of America either.

Retired Army Officer Remembers Lt. Col. Vindman as Partisan Democrat Who Ridiculed America - Tennessee Star

Retired Army Officer Remembers Lt. Col. Vindman as Partisan Democrat Who Ridiculed America

tennesseestar.com

 

[Tekate]

Of course I think someone would trust him again, there are people in this world that believe in honesty. No, Trump should keep him because he's a proud, honest, truthful, decorated veteran. I don't think you get it Red. He did nothing wrong, he's not a traitor, he's not a subversive, he's a Lt Col who heard what to most people except Trump lovers, a president pressuring a country to start an investigation into a political opponent. That is wrong. Whether one is repub or demo.

Obama would never have done what Trump did, the guy was a decent, honest, reliable, intelligent American, all things Trump lacks.

It's over but it won't be forgotten.

I would expect ANY administration to reassign such a person and already said that. Why do any of you think he should be allowed to remain in his position when there are obvious differences of opinion on foreign policy? Why would he want to stay? Why is this such a big deal? Do you think anyone will trust him again? Trump should keep him because Democrats say he should? Would Obama have kept him if Rs said he should? Come on now.

@Tekate Trump's not out so now everyone has to move on from here.

 

[redwood66]

Of course I think someone would trust him again, there are people in this world that believe in honesty. No, Trump should keep him because he's a proud, honest, truthful, decorated veteran. I don't think you get it Red. He did nothing wrong, he's not a traitor, he's not a subversive, he's a Lt Col who heard what to most people except Trump lovers, a president pressuring a country to start an investigation into a political opponent. That is wrong. Whether one is repub or demo.

Obama would never have done what Trump did, the guy was a decent, honest, reliable, intelligent American, all things Trump lacks.

It's over but it won't be forgotten.

Get what? That we have a completely different opinion of this guy. I get that and so should you.

 

[Tekate]

a smug bureaucrat? how many people who are bureaucrats can have this in their resumes?

During his Army career, Vindman earned the Ranger Tab, Combat Infantryman Badge, Expert Infantryman Badge, and Parachutist Badge, as well as four Army Commendation Medals and two Defense Meritorious Service Medals.[2]

I too saw a man who was nervous, uncomfortable and well aware that his career was probably ending. Hopefully a company with integrity and values will hire him, he has a MA in Russian, Eastern European and Central Asian studies.[3]

He'll go on the a great career and Trump will be nothing but a footnote in history as a malignant narcissist.

I read that 'people didn't think much of him either' yet read above, somebody thought he was a pretty good soldier, and the people I read about were no longer in the service and they themselves were not stellar. ugh.

I watched his testimony and saw a smug bureaucrat irritated that his opinion on policy was being questioned. People he worked with didn't think much of his opinion of America either.

Retired Army Officer Remembers Lt. Col. Vindman as Partisan Democrat Who Ridiculed America - Tennessee Star

Retired Army Officer Remembers Lt. Col. Vindman as Partisan Democrat Who Ridiculed America

tennesseestar.com

 

[Tekate]

I don't get HOW you could have such a different opinion. ugh again.

Get what? That we have a completely different opinion of this guy. I get that and so should you.

 

[bludiva]

I watched his testimony and saw a smug bureaucrat irritated that his opinion on policy was being questioned. People he worked with didn't think much of his opinion of America either.

Retired Army Officer Remembers Lt. Col. Vindman as Partisan Democrat Who Ridiculed America - Tennessee Star

Retired Army Officer Remembers Lt. Col. Vindman as Partisan Democrat Who Ridiculed America

tennesseestar.com

The Tennessee Star - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

i don't know much about the guy but that would be more compelling coming from an unbiased source. both of his brothers in the army and a boatload of commendations, seems like a family that has served the country well. even if he was smug and biased, the president isn't handling it appropriately.

 

[redwood66]

I don't get HOW you could have such a different opinion. ugh again.

Oh that's the beauty of us.

 

[Tekate]

I don't get HOW you could have such a different opinion. ugh again.

and I don't need an explanation of differences of opinions, I know all about that.

 

[redwood66]

The Tennessee Star - Bias and Credibility

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no

mediabiasfactcheck.com

i don't know much about the guy but that would be more compelling coming from an unbiased source. both of his brothers in the army and a boatload of commendations, seems like a family that has served the country well. even if he was smug and biased, the president isn't handling it appropriately.

What does the leaning of the paper have to do with the information in the article? Are you saying he is lying?

 

[Tekate]

@redwood66 you know I have respect for you, but this is amazing. I don't see how anyone can't believe our president should have done this heinous thing. Such is life.

 

[redwood66]

@redwood66 you know I have respect for you, but this is amazing. I don't see how anyone can't believe our president should have done this heinous thing. Such is life.

I have never said he should have done this. I have always said it was wrong/bad form but not impeachable IMO.

Edit - what does that have to do with not being surprised or upset that he reassigned Vindman anyway?

 

[bludiva]

What does the leaning of the paper have to do with the information in the article? Are you saying he is lying?

i don't know if he's lying but b/c the paper tends to be biased they may be more willing to spin it or run with a story that's less well vetted.

 

[redwood66]

i don't know if he's lying but b/c the paper tends to be biased they may be more willing to spin it or run with a story that's less well vetted.

Well at least you admit the media does that. His words are his words beyond the supposed spin. So one believes his account or they don't.

 

[bludiva]

Well at least you admit the media does that. His words are his words beyond the supposed spin. So one believes his account or they don't.

re the media:
so much of what's presented as news is opinion or entertainment imho. and the 1st time i spent a good chunk of time overseas i noticed how differently the same news outlets cover issues in their international vs US editions. i think some outlets do a better job than others about reporting ethically and being apolitical but if i'm trying to learn about something in the news i try to triangulate.

re believing the person quoted in this article
it reads like a couple of guys who didn't like col. vindman's worldview, not that vindman was trying to influence politics or subvert his superiors etc.. if there were multiple media sources showing a pattern bad behavior from vindman, that would lend it credibility. as it stands it doesn't sound like much compared to other reports of his record.

 

[MollyMalone]

Because I would not expect ANY administration to keep a subversive who reports to political opponents within its ranks. To say otherwise is partisan sour grapes.

Frankly I'm amazed that anyone is surprised or upset about it. He is the POTUS and can have the staff he wants in his administration. He is the CIC of the military btw.

Huh? Lt. Col Vindman reported his concerns about (a) the July 10 meetings in Bolton's office with, e.g., Ambassador to the EU Sondland, Rick Perry, Kurt Volker, Ukrainian officials, Kurt Voker -- where Sondland started talking "about Ukraine delivering specific investigations in order secure a meeting with the President", and/or (b) Giuliani (he didn't voice the same concerns to all of the following):

• Sondland
• Kurt Volker
• John Eisenberg, the chief counsel for the National Security Council & Deputy Counsel to the President for National Security Affairs
• NSC's chief ethics officer, Yevgeny Vindman (his brother)
• Ambassador William Taylor --not an Obama "holdover." A West Point grad and Vietnam vet who served in several different defense and foreign service capacities to, e.g., William Howard Taft IV (US Ambassador to NATO) and Secretary of State Colin Powell before being tapped by President Bush as US Ambassador to Ukraine. He left his position as Executive VP at the US Institute for Peace to accept the leadership position in the Ukraine in June 2019 after Marie Yovanovich's departure:
• George Kent, who was named the Deputy Ass't Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs in September 2018.

After Trump's July 25 phone call to Zelensky (Vindman had drafted the "talking points" for the President but those did not include the 2016 election or Burisma), John Eisenberg, Eisenberg's deputy Michael Ellis, and Yvegeny Vindman met with Vindman, who went through his notes of the phone call.

That meeting is what presumably prompted Eisenberg (who refused to comply with the Congressional subpoena & did not testify) to have the transcript memo stored on the more secure, codeword server (although Vindman didn't see that as untoward because he thought it was "sensitive" material); Eisenberger subsequently instructed Vindman to not speak of the phone call. I've seen nothing credible that points to Alexander Vindman violating that admonition... until he was subpoenaed.

Yes, the US President was free to direct the Vindmans' removal from their positions from NCS. There are statutory constraints on presidential powers to remove any and every one from their "administration" (a word that encompasses a helluva lot of terrain, assuming you aren't thinking of just Presidential nominees who are to be confirmed by Congress), but those constraints aren't applicable to the Vindman brothers.

But a POTUS -- and our country -- are ill served by a President who surrounds him/herself with slavering sycophants. And that goes in spades for this alarmingly ill-informed, shallow egoist.

 

[bludiva]

molly malone raises a good point, a stong leader welcomes people who will push back, not just yes men.

 

[AGBF]

molly malone raises a good point, a stong leader welcomes people who will push back, not just yes men.

That's the least of what she said. Molly said a mouthful.

 

[Matata]

@MollyMalone thank you for your thoughtful and factual posts.

 

[MollyMalone]

The Tennesse

What does the leaning of the paper have to do with the information in the article? Are you saying he is lying?

The Tennessee Star is not a newspaper. It's true that even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but this doesn't seem to be one of those times. Contrary to Hickman's claim, Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman was never a DoD attaché to an embassy in Germany; in 2013, he was a DoD attaché to our embassy in Russia.

I reached out to a friend of mine -- now retired, but a senior Army officer of high rank at the Penatagon whom President Reagan tapped "back when" to serve in the Office of White House Counsel on a special project -- for his perspective on Hickman's allegations. He says that if Hickman's allegations about Vindman's remarks at Atlas Vision 2013 (computer-based training in Germany for a small group of US and Russian army troops) are true, one would expect that Hickman and/or Thomas Lasch, Hickman's commanding officer would have documented them, and his reprimand, at the time. Further, he would expect such a report , if verified, would mean that Vindman would not have been assigned in September 2018 to NSC.

From (retired) Brigadier General Peter Zwack today:

 

[JPie]

@MollyMalone thanks for taking the time to post the facts.

 

[redwood66]

Thank you @MollyMalone for your perspective. Nice contacts you have there.

Edit - Your friend does also know that not all verbal counseling is recorded or taken further as well though. Happens quite a lot actually.