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Hope the President does a good job for USA

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by AnnaH, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. Matata
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Matata » Jun 4, 2017
    To me AnnaH, it's the same as when christians say "oh I'm not that kind of christian" when we talk here about the beliefs of some extreme evangelicals. Well, christians follow the same book -- the bible. They can't cherry pick what they want out of it depending on the situation. If you are taught from and believe in the bible, then you believe the good and the bad it contains because it is the word of god, yes? If you believe only the good or only the bad, then it calls into question, imo, the validity of the entire book. It's guilt through association I suppose.

    I think trump is morally bankrupt. He is also a serial liar. In my life, there is no room for liars. I cannot applaud any good he accidentally achieves because I have no respect for the individual. An example would be saying that Hitler did good by uniting Germany under a common cause.
     
  2. Calliecake
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Calliecake » Jun 4, 2017
    Thank you putting what I feel so perfectly into words Matata.
     
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  3. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 4, 2017
    Mata, did you vote for HRC? Are you saying she doesn't lie? If I only voted for perfect people, I'd never vote.
     
  4. smitcompton
    Ideal_Rock

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    by smitcompton » Jun 4, 2017
    Hi,

    A couple of things--

    Anna-- You have to look to the beginning of all this. This mans life is not one to be admired. He pays no taxes: his is a life o.f being a promoter for his brand. He has failed at 4 businesses.

    Its fine to say he wishes to examine agencies with an eye to streamline them, most people would like that,. So, if they give him reports indicating cuts to be made, do you think he will understand them. He doesn't understand the Heath bill at all. He can't concentrate on the intelligence he gets, so that they have to put his name in the paragraphs with pictures, so that he will pay attention.

    I think his campaign told you the kind of person he is. He is a serial liar, a person who demeans others,and has a hard time putting together cogent thoughts that relate to one another. I think Anna that you are offended by peoples comments in here about your thinking, but you are OK by the POTUS attacking everything and everyone in sight.

    He may do some things right, but he is an ignorant man who ought not be Pres. So far he has preformed exactly like many knew he would when he got in office. I understand wanting some of his stated policies, but it s hard to see how you cannot see he is mostly inept, rather ignorant, and still just a liar.

    Annette
     
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  5. Dancing Fire
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Dancing Fire » Jun 4, 2017
    Good Qs...:whistle:
     
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  6. Matata
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Matata » Jun 4, 2017
    Anna if you can't discern the difference between the two, nothing I say will make a difference.
     
  7. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 4, 2017
    No, Mata, I don't see much, if any, difference between them. They have much in common. But that doesn't fit your narrative
     
  8. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 4, 2017
    Smit, never said I think President Trump is wonderful. I do think he was the better choice of the only two choices we had. You disagree, and I've never said it makes you evil or stupid.
     
  9. t-c
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by t-c » Jun 4, 2017
    Yes, you're right, I had planned to address the employment numbers but didn't get around to it. While there is increased jobs, I don't really know which Trump policy drove those. I think it's just a continuation of the improving economy that was started in the Obama administration. I suppose Trump can get credit for not derailing it.

    The thing with NATO: he can pressure the other members privately or he can pressure them publicly. What does he get for doing so publicly? He embarrasses the allies and increases tension. Germany is now suggesting that the US can't be relied on -- which may seem like a great thing (we won't be primarily responsible economically and militarily for protecting Europe), but it also significantly diminishes our influence throughout the world.

    A lot of Trump's policies that are meant to "put America first" will actually put American standing lower, at least globally. He's forcing a stronger German-French alliance in Europe with his NATO and G7 shenanigans; he's driven Australia towards China with our withdrawal from the TPP (that power vacuum in Asia is now happily filled by China), and complete loss of influence on global climate policies by pulling out of the Paris accord. Now, you may like this if you're only looking domestically or narrower, but you have to keep in mind that nowadays business/trade is global, finance is global, the economy is global.

    The people in the BMW plants in South Carolina are now learning that Trump's tough-on-Germany trade rhetoric might hit them directly in the pocketbook. But then they voted for the man who said he would renegotiate for tough trade deals that put America first.

    So things aren't as simple as putting America first in everything. Sometimes, helping other countries will actually be better for the US in the long run (e.g. improving the Mexican economy helps American businesses because they buy more and it also lowers illegal immigration). But we have a simple president with simple policies that are hits with people who don't like nuance. I hope we don't soon hear "who knew the economy, global trade, and finance could be so complicated?"

    I would still like to get a list of Trump's promises that he's fulfilled from you. Surely it's not just NATO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  10. Matata
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Matata » Jun 4, 2017
    It doesn't fit my narrative because she's not president. The person who is president has definitely fulfilled his prophesy that his presidency would be "unpresidented" by achieving the honor of being -- by his non supporters in the US, by global citizenry, by our most important allies -- called the most loathed president and the dumbest president in recent history. It's going to be difficult for his successor to beat that.
     
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  11. Calliecake
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    by Calliecake » Jun 4, 2017
    It will certainly be interesting to hear what the history books say about Trump decades from now.
     
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  12. Matata
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Matata » Jun 4, 2017
    Excerpt from a friend's FB post as a warning of what's happening while we obsess about his tweets.

    "On regulatory policy, Trump’s impact has far outpaced the coverage it’s often received. He’s made it harder for workers to set up retirement accounts and has delayed the implementation of workplace safety rules. He repealed a regulation protecting workers from wage theft and allowed employers with spotty labor records to get government contracts. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has hit the brakes on a rule that would require firms to report worker injury data online. Trump has given coal companies permission to dump debris into local streams and canceled requirements for reporting methane emissions. Both the Dakota Access and Keystone pipelines have been allowed to proceed, and coal companies have been allowed to again lease on public lands.
    Elsewhere, Trump has made moves that will fundamentally alter the way our economy operates and individuals live their lives. His appointment of Ajit Pai to head the Federal Communications Commission is one of them. Pai is poised to dismantle net neutrality rules, moving away from treating online content as a public utility and toward a system that allows cable and telecom industry interests to control content and traffic. “That appointment,” ... “is [determining] 16 percent of the economy.”
     
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  13. partgypsy
    Ideal_Rock

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    by partgypsy » Jun 4, 2017
    Obama's administration was already doing this. I know this because i work for a federal agency and seen changes due this effort, for example consolidation of how employees are paid, how veterans are reimbursed, and reduction in travel and meetings. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.go...ering-efficient-effective-and-accountable-gov

    And the law to get rid of two regulations to impose a new one, yes i think that is a meaningless and nonsensical rule for someone who doesn't understand how government works. Makes sense to look at each legislation and regulation individually on it's merits versus some numbers game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  14. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 4, 2017
    Economic numbers are improving. It's early in the Trump administration, so we shall see.
    Liberals believe government has all the answers and should rule us. I disagree. It's a difference in how we view the world and personal responsibility and freedom. Neither viewpoint means someone is evil or stupid. That's my point.
    I don't expect anyone here so say, "Oh, yeah, I see the light! I should have voted for Trump." But to disagree with everything he says and does seems disingenuous.
     
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  15. Calliecake
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Calliecake » Jun 4, 2017
    Wait, Isn't it the republicans who feel they have right to tell me what I can do with MY body???
     
    


    


  16. Dancing Fire
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Dancing Fire » Jun 4, 2017
    I'll grade Trump after his first term as Prez. There are two agendas that both side should agree upon.

    #1...rebuilding our infrastructures.
    #2...deporting dangerous criminals from our country.
     
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  17. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 4, 2017
    CC, if I started discussing abortion here, heads would explode.
    Did you just write a one sentence post? Shame, shame. :D
     
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  18. t-c
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by t-c » Jun 5, 2017
    Not even close. I believe the government should play a bigger role in society. I believe it should provide healthcare for all, education for those who want it, and welfare for those who need it. I believe government should improve and maintain its infrastructure including highways, railways, dams, water sources, open spaces, the electricity grid, and the internet grid. All those are used by everyone and should not be left to private companies whose first motives are profit. I believe the federal government is in a unique position to provide this equally to everyone, and not have different standards by county or state or whatever consulting firm was used to set benefits up. What is your issue with that?

    Here's the issue I have with some so-called conservatives. They want small government, but don't want the benefits they are using taken away from them. They want small government only when it's other people's government that gets reduced. I bet you once the coal companies start dumping more waste into streams (they are now allowed) there's going to be a cry for clean-up of said water.
     
  19. partgypsy
    Ideal_Rock

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    by partgypsy » Jun 5, 2017
    There are certain things yes I think the government is better capable of handling than local government or private for-profit companies. One is infrastructure. Another is global security/military. Another, really important one is healthcare, providing universal coverage for ALL citizens, which is a matter of public health. Public education is another area, where there should be access to quality education for all citizens. If we don't have the EPA, then there is nothing to stop private companies from dumping, polluting and releasing harmful byproducts into our land, air and water, which affects all of us. Our public health should come before private companies profits.
     
  20. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 5, 2017
    Of course, the federal government is responsible for nation security and defense. For most issues, however, I think state or local governments are in a better position to govern. Many big government believers here (and across our country) think that makes me evil and stupid. Yet, I don't call the big government supporters evil and stupid. I think you are wrong, not necessarily evil and stupid. Again, that's my point.
     
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  21. OreoRosies86
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OreoRosies86 » Jun 5, 2017
    Literally no one has called you evil and stupid. Dramatic, maybe.
     
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  22. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 5, 2017
    E, are you just referring to this thread or to HO in general? I was speaking to the latter, obviously.
     
  23. t-c
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    by t-c » Jun 5, 2017
    It would help the discussion if you're more specific. What programs that @partgypsy or I have listed do you think would be better handled by the states?
     
  24. AnnaH
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    by AnnaH » Jun 5, 2017
    Of those just named, education and health care.
     
  25. partgypsy
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    by partgypsy » Jun 5, 2017
    Well, the reason I stated this, it's not just my opinion and "gut feeling", but based on evidence and best practices. My background is of a scientist, and I am a pragmatist at heart. I want to spend the least amount of money for the best outcomes. And this is what the evidence says. I have a post-doc in aging, and did a segment about healthcare and healthcare costs. Compared to countries who have nationalized healthcare, we as a nation do worse on a number of public health indicators while spending MORE on healthcare costs per capita. The reason why is that we have a for-profit healthcare insurance industry. There is no real competition because it is not an open system and making comparisons is very opaque. For-profit system works well in some situations, but not for health care. This can be seen in the VA. Although the patient population of the VA on average is high needs (the kind who would be turned away for healthcare due to pre-existing conditions for example), the VA does the same or better than private healthcare on a number of indicators. http://www.rand.org/blog/2012/08/socialized-or-not-we-can-learn-from-the-va.html The fact is, people who profit from the healthcare industry spend a lot of money to paint a different picture. Look at the money trail (including elected officials).

    In the same way, having the Federal government insure standards and access to education for ALL kids, not just ones from certain states or wealthy districts, is not just about fairness. It is a benefit to all of us in the long term to have an educated populace and reduced disparity. And the people and the organizations who are most knowledgeable and invested in these concerns agree with this conclusion; everyone from the AMA, AARP and hospital organizations in the case of healthcare coverage, to parent teachers organizations and teaching and educational councils in the case of education. Should I believe the PTA, people whose own childrens' education is at stake, or individuals like DeVos, who knows and cares nothing of public education and has both monetary and faith-based reasons to handicap public education, about the welfare of my own child?
     
  26. t-c
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by t-c » Jun 5, 2017
    Why do you think the states would do better? Usually in political and policy discussions such as one (I hope) we are having, more details with regards to your position the better.
     
  27. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 5, 2017
    PartG, did you say that our veterans are receiving quality care? Maybe I misunderstood.
    Parents have little input federally, so I'm not sure why you trust federal bureaucracy more than yourself. Again, maybe I misunderstood.
     
  28. AnnaH
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AnnaH » Jun 5, 2017
    tc, the purpose of this thread was to explain why those who voted for Trump in the general election aren't ready to throw him under the bus.
    If you want to discuss education, start a thread. Healthcare, start a thread.
    That would be more productive.
     
  29. partgypsy
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    by partgypsy » Jun 5, 2017
    AnnaH, I was just responding to your post above about healthcare and education. I do maintain that the VA provides quality care, as seen by metrics, just that when someone dies at the VA it can become front page news versus private hmos. Also the VA has more oversight and needs to collect more data and be more transparent about their data than private care, which makes for an apples versus oranges comparison. There are people vested in making VA look bad, because they are ideologically against "socialized" medicine, even if that means harming veteran care. If you don't believe me, ask the veterans. Look at their satisfaction ratings.
     
  30. t-c
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by t-c » Jun 5, 2017
    Well, then explain. All you did was post a link to what a lot of Trump detractors see as wholly inadequate support of Trump. So add meat to that article -- give details, data, numbers, and give sources. Directly address arguments against your position, and support your position with additional data and facts.
     
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