HOA meeting and prayer that ends with "in Jesus' name"

[Jambalaya]

Tekate wrote: How this was solved in my kids schools was the moment of silence thing.

It's interesting to hear how other communities have dealt with this.

 

[Tekate]

Do we allow for our savior the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Allah, what about Jews? I once read that the USA is a salad bowl, all mixed together and not homogenous.. The spirit of laughter goes wherever I go Ellen, but I do have to keep it silent when I am in a meeting or in the grocery store. We are a big large country and we need to respect all our people, including the Hindu, Jew, Islamics, Christian and Spaghetti Monsters. So we need to have a moment of silence to reflect on our version of a higher power or guider or whatever because the spirit of our version (or non version) is with us all. I liken it to PEACE.. Peace to all men/etc.

For Kenny and those who think people praying in Jesus name is arrogant and/or shoving religion down someones throat, it's far from that. With all due respect, you and your religious standing is the last thing on that persons mind. They do that, in obedience to and respect for our Lord and Savior. I cannot post the verses that ask for prayers to be addressed in His nam because I will be breaking PS rules. But there are a multitude that request prayers to be asked in Jesus name. So it has nothing to do with you, and no one is trying to push their religion on you.

And to ask that we keep our religion to certain places not is possible. The spirit of Christ lives in us, so wherever we go, He goes. He's not something we just turn on and off. He lives in us and we in Him, day in and day out. I know you won't really understand this (and I say this NOT to be condescending), but I felt it needed saying in trying to help you understand a little better why some Christians behave the way they do.


And I cannot stress enough how I wish more people could be like Jambalaya.

 

[missy]

Do we allow for our savior the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Allah, what about Jews? I once read that the USA is a salad bowl, all mixed together and not homogenous.. The spirit of laughter goes wherever I go Ellen, but I do have to keep it silent when I am in a meeting or in the grocery store. A big large country we need to respect all our people, including the Hindu, Jew, Islam, Christian and Spaghetti Monsters. So we need to have a moment of silence to reflect on our version of a higher power or guider or whatever because the spirit of our version (or non version) is with us all. I liken it to PEACE.. Peace to all men/etc.

For Kenny and those who think people praying in Jesus name is arrogant and/or shoving religion down someones throat, it's far from that. With all due respect, you and your religious standing is the last thing on that persons mind. They do that, in obedience to and respect for our Lord and Savior. I cannot post the verses that ask for prayers to be addressed in His nam because I will be breaking PS rules. But there are a multitude that request prayers to be asked in Jesus name. So it has nothing to do with you, and no one is trying to push their religion on you.

And to ask that we keep our religion to certain places not is possible. The spirit of Christ lives in us, so wherever we go, He goes. He's not something we just turn on and off. He lives in us and we in Him, day in and day out. I know you won't really understand this (and I say this NOT to be condescending), but I felt it needed saying in trying to help you understand a little better why some Christians behave the way they do.


And I cannot stress enough how I wish more people could be like Jambalaya.

And may I add a non religious AMEN to what Tekate wrote. A moment of silence for each to silently pray or not pray to whomever or whatever we choose. Peace to everyone.

 

[Tekate]

Thank you Jambalaya, very much.. it was a school (public).. I think the OP should really ask that a moment of silence be held for those who wish to 'pray'. Respecting differences and respecting each other is a tough thing in our society in the USA, we are all so different at times. Peace.

Tekate wrote: How this was solved in my kids schools was the moment of silence thing.

It's interesting to hear how other communities have dealt with this.

 

[yennyfire]

I often find that the people who don't mind are a part of the majority...the "I was raised Christian, but no longer practice" variety. If you've never been part of a minority, then you can't really understand why it makes those of us who are uncomfortable. I'm a practicing Jew who grew up in and continues to reside in the South. I grew up being told I'd burn in hell because I didn't accept Jesus as my savior. As a child, it frightened me. As a teen it pissed me off. As an adult, I feel scorn for people who can't accept those who believe differently from them.

Now, I'm raising Jewish kids in the South. I am very active in my school and have been the Room Parent every year. Every Winter, before the break, we have a party. According to school rules, it's supposed to be a "Holiday" party with a non-denominational theme (i.e. snowflakes)...every year, the Room Parent's in almost every class do a "Christmas" party, complete the ornament making art projects, the singing of Christmas carols, lots of candy canes, etc. It makes my kids feel very excluded. And technically, I could make waves and tell the principal that it's against the law to bring religion into a public school. However, I pick my battles carefully, and this one isn't worth it to me. My kids know that we are the minority living in a majority Christian society. We tell them to be respectful, and that they can make an ornament to give a friend instead of to bring home to us. As they get older, they are handling it better. However, I'd much prefer it if religion were left out of public places such as schools, HOA's, etc....

 

[packrat]

Sigh. And we wanted to be able to discuss religion on here b/c why?

 

[monarch64]

Sigh. And we wanted to be able to discuss religion on here b/c why?

BECAUSE IT ALWAYS GOES SO WELL

 

[Jambalaya]

I thought it was a respectful discussion. No one got personal or lost their tempers, but put forward their viewpoints. To me, it was a debate and not an argument. Some people took very strong positions, yes, but I don't feel they were expressed in a disrespectful way. I could have done without the eye-rolling icon, but that's all.

 

[ruby59]

We had a similar situation at my old high school. In the 1950s when the school first opened a plaque was donated by the first graduating class. The first line read "Our heavenly father." It hung there until a few years ago, when suddenly it was observed by one student, an atheist. She, and her parents, (mostly her parents) sued the school that she felt left out. The school had to take it down.

Another case. On a public piece of land in our State there was a tribute to a fallen soldier. It was maintained by a shop owner adjacent to it. It had a cross because the person who passed happened to be Catholic. Another group wanted to have it removed because they felt is was unfair to other religions.

And of course our State is known as the place where on State House property we could not refer to it as a "Christmas" tree. It had to be known as a "Holiday" tree. Finally someone came to their senses on that.

Oh, and by the way I am Jewish.

We are all different. So there is nothing that is going to include all of us. Everyone is going to find something objectionable. So in the future why don't we have bare walls, empty landscapes, and silence to please everyone?

 

[AGBF]

Sigh. And we wanted to be able to discuss religion on here b/c why?

BECAUSE IT ALWAYS GOES SO WELL

Don't say I ever said that, Monnie. Sometimes people disagree. In my opinion, the way one judges a discussion is by the intellectual level and the tone of the discussion and by how much light has been shed on the subject, not by whether there was some acrimony during the discussion.

I do think that too much acrimony adversely affects the amount of intellectual information exchanged and adversely affects the tone of the discourse, however. So you're right, too.

Deb

 

[ksinger]

Ksinger, I'm going to write out what you said that I want to reply to, rather than quoting the whole exchange, which can make the thread a little messy.

You wrote: "..he proceeded to condescendingly tell me that if I'd just think about it more clearly, I'd come to a belief in God."

Oh man, that is awful. I cannot imagine saying things like that to anyone, or thinking such a thing. I guess he feels entitled to say those things because it's a very religious state as you say, and so he feels as if it's OK. I can see how that could be extremely annoying. Where I live is quite non-religious and I've never heard anyone say things like that.

You also wrote that your belief against are firm and well-thought-out. I've always found it impossible to take a firm view in either direction. I don't really understand the strength and certainty of positions on either side of the fence, given that we just don't know. I kind of envy people their surety, whether it's someone who has a rock-hard faith or a rock-hard certainty that there is nothing out there. For me, it will always basically remain a mystery. Since we don't know, I'm open to all possibilities.

Well, that was the danger in using the word "belief". It implies that I have some. I don't, not in the sense you're thinking of. My well thought out and firm comment stems from the fact that I've long considered the claims of religion - for a deity and and afterlife, and no proofs have been offered that were strong enough to sway me from my own observation that beliefs about those two things are so subjective (see the wildly different religions and flavors of those religions) that any beliefs I might gravitate to would also be totally subjective.

So you're correct, we really don't know, but atheism (which is not to be confused with the angry rantings of Dawkins' and Harris' attempts to hijack disbelief for their own egos)- is simply saying there is no compelling evidence in the non-subjective sense, that would support the assertion of the religious that there is some deity (of whatever particular flavor) pulling the strings, or some continued existence of the consciousness known as ksinger, after my body ceases to function. I have decided that lack of evidence is enough for ME to say there is no deity, and call myself an atheist. Others would probably leave the door open and call themselves agnostics. I have no belief about a deity, except my rejection of the assertion by others, that a deity exists. The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion, not the one rejecting it due to lack of proof. The minute some irrefutable proof is presented, I will revise my stance.

Honestly, I really don't think it matters. To me what matters is this moment, right NOW. I don't need to spin up beliefs about an assertion that in thousands of years, has had zero objective evidences presented to support it. I need to pay attention to this moment and how I'm experiencing that, not fretting about something I can't know about. Death is coming for me, probably much sooner than for some, and death is a primary reason people gravitate to religion. We humans just have SUCH a hard time dealing with the idea of not existing, but we all must deal with it somehow, yes?

 

[sonnyjane]

Sigh. And we wanted to be able to discuss religion on here b/c why?

BECAUSE IT ALWAYS GOES SO WELL

Ha I was going to say, Kenny got his religion wish wrapped in an HOA package!

 

[kenny]

Thank you for the civics lesson, Kenny.

You're welcome.

When people think majority rule is adequate for any situation a civics lesson is called for because it points out the dark side of majority rule.

 

[Jambalaya]

I only meant a belief in the sense that with an absence of proof, it can't be a fact. I was writing freely and not choosing every word with great care so that I can't be tripped up. I didn't mean the word in a religious sense in that sentence. I should have said "your opinion."

I agree that humans have a hard time thinking of themselves not existing. For some reason, I personally don't find it too hard. If there is no afterlife then yeah, you just cease to exist. I can't say that thought bothers me unduly - every living thing dies - but I know it bothers others, to the extent that some people abandon their friends at times of bereavement or life-threatening illness bc they can't cope with the thought of death.

 

[Jambalaya]

Thank you for the civics lesson, Kenny.

You're welcome.

When people think majority rule is adequate for any situation a civics lesson is called for because it points out the dark side of majority rule.

I didn't think that majority rule is adequate for any situation. I was applying it to the situation at hand and only to the situation at hand, because that's all that we were discussing at that point - the HOA prayers.

 

[monarch64]

Sigh. And we wanted to be able to discuss religion on here b/c why?

BECAUSE IT ALWAYS GOES SO WELL

Don't say I ever said that, Monnie. Sometimes people disagree. In my opinion, the way one judges a discussion is by the intellectual level and the tone of the discussion and by how much light has been shed on the subject, not by whether there was some acrimony during the discussion.

I do think that too much acrimony adversely affects the amount of intellectual information exchanged and adversely affects the tone of the discourse, however. So you're right, too.

Deb

I like it when we're both right!

 

[kenny]

Thank you for the civics lesson, Kenny.

You're welcome.

When people think majority rule is adequate for any situation a civics lesson is called for because it points out the dark side of majority rule.

I didn't think that majority rule is adequate for any situation. I was applying it to the situation at hand and only to the situation at hand, because that's all that we were discussing at that point - the HOA prayers.

... yes, a situation where majority rule clearly is inadequate, as evidenced by the concerns raised in the OP's OP and the posts by members of minorities who know what it's like to be trampled on by the majority.

 

[Ellen]

Honestly, I really don't think it matters. To me what matters is this moment, right NOW. I don't need to spin up beliefs about an assertion that in thousands of years, has had zero objective evidences presented to support it. I need to pay attention to this moment and how I'm experiencing that, not fretting about something I can't know about. Death is coming for me, probably much sooner than for some, and death is a primary reason people gravitate to religion. We humans just have SUCH a hard time dealing with the idea of not existing, but we all must deal with it somehow, yes?

Only those that don't understand that we all DO go somewhere, it's just a matter of where, and don't know where they're going. If I died as soon as I hit the post button, I would have NO problem with it. In fact, I kinda wish I would. Because I do know where I'm going, and it's a far, far, far better place than this world.

As for all who hate hearing the name of Jesus and wish it would all go away, don't worry. The day is fast approaching when you won't EVER hear it in this country or anywhere else. And then you know that saying, be careful what you wish for, you just may get it? Yeah, that.

 

[ruby59]

Eh, some people LIVE to be offended and feel victimized.
___________________________________________________
This. I do wonder how some manage to get through the day.

 

[NonieMarie]

How many people are on the advisory board? I'm assuming it's voluntary?

We are an HOA that runs with volunteer officers, no management company. The advisory board, of which I am president, is a section of the HOA that consists of 113 homes.

 

[Jambalaya]

Thank you for the civics lesson, Kenny.

You're welcome.

When people think majority rule is adequate for any situation a civics lesson is called for because it points out the dark side of majority rule.

I didn't think that majority rule is adequate for any situation. I was applying it to the situation at hand and only to the situation at hand, because that's all that we were discussing at that point - the HOA prayers.

... yes, a situation where majority rule clearly is inadequate, as evidenced by the concerns raised in the OP's OP.

But, you see, I don't think it's totally clear about whether the majority rule should be applied here. You might think it's clear, but I think there are arguments for and against applying the majority rule in the HOA, and so I think this issue deserves a little more thought.

There's no legal ruling on whether HOA prayers should be decided by majority rule, so we can only have our opinions. In my opinion, there is more than one way of looking at this: (Is this a meta-debate? A debate about a debate? I'm now not talking about whether HOA prayers should be allowed, but how that decision should be made.)

One opinion: HOA meetings are not religious places, and they are public places, so there should be no prayers. Therefore, prayers should be stopped.

Another opinion: The legal system does sometimes take into consideration custom and precedent, as we can see in the quote that VRBeauty used. (I am going to paste that quote below at the end for easy ref.) However, one additional reason majority rule might be considered here is that nobody is forced to pray or to listen, and nobody's human rights are at risk given that you have a free choice not to participate.

So, what does a person think, considering these two viewpoints? For the purposes of the issue in these few posts here, it doesn't matter.
My point here, in this post, is that there is more than one way of looking at this.

(VR's quote, in underline to distinguish from my italics above: In light of the unambiguous and unbroken history of more than 200 years, there can be no doubt that the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer has become part of the fabric of our society. To invoke Divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, an ‘establishment’ of religion or a step toward establishment; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among people of this country.)
[/u]

 

[missy]

I often find that the people who don't mind are a part of the majority...the "I was raised Christian, but no longer practice" variety. If you've never been part of a minority, then you can't really understand why it makes those of us who are uncomfortable. I'm a practicing Jew who grew up in and continues to reside in the South. I grew up being told I'd burn in hell because I didn't accept Jesus as my savior. As a child, it frightened me. As a teen it pissed me off. As an adult, I feel scorn for people who can't accept those who believe differently from them.

Now, I'm raising Jewish kids in the South. I am very active in my school and have been the Room Parent every year. Every Winter, before the break, we have a party. According to school rules, it's supposed to be a "Holiday" party with a non-denominational theme (i.e. snowflakes)...every year, the Room Parent's in almost every class do a "Christmas" party, complete the ornament making art projects, the singing of Christmas carols, lots of candy canes, etc. It makes my kids feel very excluded. And technically, I could make waves and tell the principal that it's against the law to bring religion into a public school. However, I pick my battles carefully, and this one isn't worth it to me. My kids know that we are the minority living in a majority Christian society. We tell them to be respectful, and that they can make an ornament to give a friend instead of to bring home to us. As they get older, they are handling it better. However, I'd much prefer it if religion were left out of public places such as schools, HOA's, etc....

100% agree with you Yenny. Until you have been in the same position you cannot truly "get" it. Some however can empathize better than others to be sure and are more sensitive that way.

Honestly, I really don't think it matters. To me what matters is this moment, right NOW. I don't need to spin up beliefs about an assertion that in thousands of years, has had zero objective evidences presented to support it. I need to pay attention to this moment and how I'm experiencing that, not fretting about something I can't know about. Death is coming for me, probably much sooner than for some, and death is a primary reason people gravitate to religion. We humans just have SUCH a hard time dealing with the idea of not existing, but we all must deal with it somehow, yes?

Only those that don't understand that we all DO go somewhere, it's just a matter of where, and don't know where they're going. If I died as soon as I hit the post button, I would have NO problem with it. In fact, I kinda wish I would. Because I do know where I'm going, and it's a far, far, far better place than this world.

As for all who hate hearing the name of Jesus and wish it would all go away, don't worry. The day is fast approaching when you won't EVER hear it in this country or anywhere else. And then you know that saying, be careful what you wish for, you just may get it? Yeah, that.

Ellen, I like you and appreciate your posts and have no wish to be disrespectful of you or your beliefs. I hope you realize that and just because I don't share the same religious beliefs as you it doesn't make me like you any less and I hope vice versa. It's just that I don't believe in "J" and don't think he is our savior and that doesn't make me or anybody else with different beliefs or non beliefs for that matter a bad or a good person. Many other things make someone a bad or good person and believing in a specific religion is not one of the characteristics that does.

 

[NonieMarie]

FWIW, we went to my SO's parents house for Turkey Day.
About 30 family members were there, all ostensibly Catholic.

Before the meal one person said a prayer.
I remained respectfully silent because I was a guest in their home.
I'm not a complete @sshole.

... but at an HOA meeting?
No way!

I do this all the time. I'm not a militant, I don't want to stop the prayer. I just don't feel it is right, in this day and age, for the prayer to be specifically Christian.

 

[ksinger]

Honestly, I really don't think it matters. To me what matters is this moment, right NOW. I don't need to spin up beliefs about an assertion that in thousands of years, has had zero objective evidences presented to support it. I need to pay attention to this moment and how I'm experiencing that, not fretting about something I can't know about. Death is coming for me, probably much sooner than for some, and death is a primary reason people gravitate to religion. We humans just have SUCH a hard time dealing with the idea of not existing, but we all must deal with it somehow, yes?

Only those that don't understand that we all DO go somewhere, it's just a matter of where, and don't know where they're going. If I died as soon as I hit the post button, I would have NO problem with it. In fact, I kinda wish I would. Because I do know where I'm going, and it's a far, far, far better place than this world.

As for all who hate hearing the name of Jesus and wish it would all go away, don't worry. The day is fast approaching when you won't EVER hear it in this country or anywhere else. And then you know that saying, be careful what you wish for, you just may get it? Yeah, that.

** Removed.

 

[Jambalaya]

Missy wrote (quoting here so as not to get too messy): Some however can empathize better than others to be sure and are more sensitive that way.

I consider myself to be very empathetic to those who are suffering. I have more longterm patience than anyone I know with people who are bereaved. Very few people will accept or tolerate bereavement that goes for longer than six months max, let alone the person feeling sad on special days years later. And speaking of being sensitive, I don't know anyone else who notes down the date of a friend's bereavement in order to send them a card or be aware of their emotions when that time of year rolls round. In addition, I have seen people go through real suffering, like giving birth in a long labor to a baby that is full-term yet dead before the birth began.

Therefore, I do not consider having to listen to a few brief invocation prayers to cause suffering so intense that majority rule must be suspended.

 

[Jambalaya]

FWIW, we went to my SO's parents house for Turkey Day.
About 30 family members were there, all ostensibly Catholic.

Before the meal one person said a prayer.
I remained respectfully silent because I was a guest in their home.
I'm not a complete @sshole.

... but at an HOA meeting?
No way!

I do this all the time. I'm not a militant, I don't want to stop the prayer. I just don't feel it is right, in this day and age, for the prayer to be specifically Christian.

I totally agree with that, and I think that prayers from different religions should be accommodated.

 

[Jambalaya]

Eh, some people LIVE to be offended and feel victimized.
___________________________________________________
This. I do wonder how some manage to get through the day.

This just about sums it up.

 

[Maria D]

Missy wrote (quoting here so as not to get too messy): Some however can empathize better than others to be sure and are more sensitive that way.

I consider myself to be very empathetic to those who are suffering. I have more longterm patience than anyone I know with people who are bereaved. Very few people will accept or tolerate bereavement that goes for longer than six months max, let alone the person feeling sad on special days years later. And speaking of being sensitive, I don't know anyone else who notes down the date of a friend's bereavement in order to be aware of their emotions when that time of year rolls round. In addition, I have seen people go through real suffering, like giving birth in a long labor to a baby that is full-term yet stillborn.

Therefore, I do not consider having to listen to a few brief invocation prayers to cause suffering so intense that majority rule must be suspended.

I'm trying to follow your logic here.

A) Yssie wrote about how the expression of the majority religion had the effect of leaving her children feeling marginalized at their own school. Even though the school was NOT following the rules, she decided that this wasn't a battle wanted to fight. Missy responded by saying she agreed, and (to me) implied that she gets it because either she or someone she's close to has been in that kind of situation. She also includes that some people, even if they've never been in this situation, can still empathize.

B) Now you are saying that because you are very empathetic yourself, and have also witnessed real suffering, listening to "a few brief invocation prayers" does not cause intense enough suffering that this practice should be questioned.

How does B follow A? No one ever said they were being caused to intensely suffer from the prayers. And it goes both ways, if the prayers were stopped, the "majority" (who knows if they really are) who like listening to prayers won't intensely suffer either. Even if the majority really really enjoys hearing the prayer, it's not going to be a big deal to them to have a meeting without it. I'm sure their faith will survive!

I don't buy your majority rule argument at all.

Early in my engineering career, I was the only woman working on a project with five other engineers. (In fact, I was the first female engineer at this company.) We were working in a testing lab that had been decorated over the years with sexy shots of women showing lots of skin. They weren't pornographic - on the same level as the photo collage posted in that thread about attractive men. I didn't like it and told the guys the pictures needed to be taken down. They disagreed - some of those pictures had been up for years, no one else minded, "they made the day go by faster" (yes, an actual quote).

Those pictures weren't hurting anyone. I wasn't suffering like someone birthing a stillborn baby. But, as they made me feel marginalized in my own place of work AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORK AT HAND, they were inappropriate and needed to be taken down.

Same thing with prayers before an HOA meeting.

 

[monarch64]

Sexy pictures in the workplace? Gosh, Maria, you'll get offended by anything! Everyone knows men have needs and boys will be boys! It really isn't fair of you to ruin the fun for everyone else who has no problem with it.

Gosh darn all these people who just can't be quiet and go along with what's normal!

 

[katharath]

Ellen, I like you and appreciate your posts and have no wish to be disrespectful of you or your beliefs. I hope you realize that and just because I don't share the same religious beliefs as you it doesn't make me like you any less and I hope vice versa. It's just that I don't believe in "J" and don't think he is our savior and that doesn't make me or anybody else with different beliefs or non beliefs for that matter a bad or a good person. Many other things make someone a bad or good person and believing in a specific religion is not one of the characteristics that does.

Missy, you sure said that a lot better than I ever could have. I really admire your style of posting, maybe someday I'll learn to be as thoughtful and tactful as you are!!

As a parent who is raising agnostic/possibly full on atheist children (my 11 year old cannot stand it when his teachers mention religion in a personal way at school, which happens quite a lot, actually!), I also get very irritated at the presumption that everyone believes the same thing, and if we don't, we are somehow the ones lacking...