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Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diamond)

DiamondFlave

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Hello!

I know that it is difficult to judge a diamond only based on its numbers. However can you please tell me what you think of the following specs:

Shape: Round
Color: I
Clarity: VVS1 (based on internal graining that it not shown)
Cut / Polish / Symmetry: all Excellent (GIA)
Length/width ratio: 1.01
Depth %: 62.3%
Table %: 56.0%
Crown: 34°
Pavillon: 41.2°
Gridle: Medium to Slightly Thick (3.5%)
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None

The price is $5700 for this almost 1.2 carat stone. Which I think is a good deal...

However I am a bit worried about 2 things:

1) the internal graining (however should it not be a problem with VVS1 right? The vault manager confirmed that the stone is not cloudy or milky.

2) the pavillon angle is a bit steep. HCA does not give a good score (3.0). But if i compare GIA and ASG tables the stone seems to be a perfect cut and right in the middle of the excellent chart. So I am a bit confused.

Any opinions on the stone itself and my two questions would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Flave
 

whitewave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Personally, a 3.0 HCA is one I would toss. You can do better.
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

mhmm although it is in the top of the class in AGS as well as GIA Charts?
 

oldminer

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

In spite of the HCA grade, it may look just fine. You are compromising in cut, and clarity, not a huge amount, but in terms of buying a D-Flawless you are compromising. Will you be physically able to appreciate the degree of your compromises or will you never notice any compromises at all? It is mostly up to you, your experience, knowledge and personality. It is nearly a subjective situation although we have some objective means to measure color and clarity in relative terms. Will you notice some light return issue? Probably not. Might there be some group of ever so slightly better cut diamonds possibly available? Yes. Would you want to pay more? That is something which can't or should not be guessed at. No one but you need know what you feel or what you think.

I have not seen one GIA triple EX diamond which I felt was a large compromise on being pretty or beautiful. I also love other things of beauty, but not everyone I know would agree with my personal taste or the extent of how liberal I may be with what I would describe as beautiful. Some folks are more particular, some far less particular than myself. I don't see any glaring error in the cut of the diamond by what you provided to us. I doubt I'd observe any "problem" with it in person. Some much more particular folks than I am exist here on Pricescope and they are a world of specialized knowledge of the very finest cut diamonds. I do respect their dedication and their opinions even when my own eyes don't see all the nuances. The same thing happens with wine tasting. Some people can taste all the very slight nuance flavors and smell the major and minor scents. My tastes run more to lesser wines and good times with people I want to be around. However, diamonds cut below the VG cut grade frequently have quite visible issues with light behavior and appearance, just like lower cost wines.

I would be curious what this diamond scored in the AGA/NAJA Cut Class Tool which is also up in the TOOLS drop down. Without max diameter, min diameter, and depth, I could not do that on my own.
 

flyingpig

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DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Oldminer|1482435481|4109043 said:
In spite of the HCA grade, it may look just fine. You are compromising in cut, and clarity, not a huge amount, but in terms of buying a D-Flawless you are compromising. Will you be physically able to appreciate the degree of your compromises or will you never notice any compromises at all? It is mostly up to you, your experience, knowledge and personality. It is nearly a subjective situation although we have some objective means to measure color and clarity in relative terms. Will you notice some light return issue? Probably not. Might there be some group of ever so slightly better cut diamonds possibly available? Yes. Would you want to pay more? That is something which can't or should not be guessed at. No one but you need know what you feel or what you think.

I have not seen one GIA triple EX diamond which I felt was a large compromise on being pretty or beautiful. I also love other things of beauty, but not everyone I know would agree with my personal taste or the extent of how liberal I may be with what I would describe as beautiful. Some folks are more particular, some far less particular than myself. I don't see any glaring error in the cut of the diamond by what you provided to us. I doubt I'd observe any "problem" with it in person. Some much more particular folks than I am exist here on Pricescope and they are a world of specialized knowledge of the very finest cut diamonds. I do respect their dedication and their opinions even when my own eyes don't see all the nuances. The same thing happens with wine tasting. Some people can taste all the very slight nuance flavors and smell the major and minor scents. My tastes run more to lesser wines and good times with people I want to be around. However, diamonds cut below the VG cut grade frequently have quite visible issues with light behavior and appearance, just like lower cost wines.

I would be curious what this diamond scored in the AGA/NAJA Cut Class Tool which is also up in the TOOLS drop down. Without max diameter, min diameter, and depth, I could not do that on my own.
Thank you a lot for your post! I ran the tool, and here are the results:

Tab Percent: 1A
Crown Angle: 1A
Crown Height: 1A
Pavilion Depth: 1B
Girdle: 1A
Depth: 1A
Polish: 1A
Symmetry: 1A
TotalGrade: 1A

This stone is 1.15ct and around 5700 dollars = 5000 dollars /carat. Probably a good deal, right?

Diameter is 6.72mm


I am also considering this stone:

Carat weight: 1.20
Cut: Ideal
Colour: I
Clarity: VS1 (comment: Additional clouds are not shown. Pinpoints
are not shown)
Length/width ratio: 1.00
Depth %: 61.7%
Table %: 56.0%
crown angle: 35
pavillion angle: 40.8
Polish / Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to Medium (3%)
Culet: None
Fluorescence: None

Tab Percent: 1A
Crown Angle: 1B
Crown Height: 1A
Pavilion Depth: 1A
Girdle: 1A
Depth: 1A
Polish: 1A
Symmetry: 1A
TotalGrade: 1A

diameter is 6.84mm

this one is around 6000 dollars with a price of 6050 dollars / carat

which one would you consider the better deal?

thanks a lot!
 

oldminer

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

What is the HCA on the second diamond?

Keep in mind you are comparing rather common size diamonds and every single one of them is a slight individual even when AGS000 grade. Telling you which might be better than another is like telling you which red grape is a better grape when you have a whole pound of perfectly fine grapes for eating. We can give you direction, but ultimately, a choice of one diamond needs to be personally satisfactory. If for some reason you don't like a diamond in person, you have return privileges. It is very safe to be a buyer from legitimate sellers. The competition is strong and the mark-ups are low. It is a consumers dream situation, but the item is a bit scary and few people ever get enough practice in the buying of them. There are a few highly experienced consumers here that would love to give you their personal preferences. Some may prove helpful and others might not be ones you'd use.
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Oldminer|1482443997|4109067 said:
What is the HCA on the second diamond?

Keep in mind you are comparing rather common size diamonds and every single one of them is a slight individual even when AGS000 grade. Telling you which might be better than another is like telling you which red grape is a better grape when you have a whole pound of perfectly fine grapes for eating. We can give you direction, but ultimately, a choice of one diamond needs to be personally satisfactory. If for some reason you don't like a diamond in person, you have return privileges. It is very safe to be a buyer from legitimate sellers. The competition is strong and the mark-ups are low. It is a consumers dream situation, but the item is a bit scary and few people ever get enough practice in the buying of them. There are a few highly experienced consumers here that would love to give you their personal preferences. Some may prove helpful and others might not be ones you'd use.

The HCA on the second one is 1.5, which, in theory, is way better than the other stone. I unfortunately dont have the option to look at the diamond before ordering. As I really wanna optimize to not have to send the diamond back, i wanna try to make it right. As the look and scintilliation of the diamond I have no preference yet. I guess a H&A cut would be the most desired :)
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

For me personally crown height is essential, if it's under 15%, I don't buy. Second thing to worry is the inclusions - I wouldn't mind VVS clarity, but I will be more careful with VS clarity. Kind of inclusions and where they are is important to me. What I'm trying to tell you is, that other factors also input to decide which diamond to buy. Will be helpful if you write the lab certificate numbers.
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

I was always assuming that a VS or VVS diamond by GIA is eyeclean per definition?

Would there be any noticeable difference between the two stones posted? Or is it just ideologism?

Best
Flave
 

ac117

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

GIA rounds its numbers so that's why the first stone is even more risky - crown angles are rounded to nearest .5 and pavilion angles to nearest .2 so we would really need light return images to see how this diamond performs and how much leakage there is.

The second one has safer numbers and I personally would spend the extra money for it since it's better cut than #1 if you must buy blindly.
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

does GIA also round down? not just up? In this case the angle could actually be 41.30?

Even if it were so, that the angles were rounded down. Would it be noticeable to the eye of the normal human that is buying diamonds? Or is this just an "academic" discussion with H&A and stuff? A Gemologist told me that with your bear eye you cannot even see a H&A pattern and that most XXX GIA diamonds are basically the same quality of cut to the "normal" eye.
 

ac117

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Yes, they also round down....for example, if the crown angle is 34.2, they'd round that to 34.

I suggest you go to your nearest hearts on fire retailer (not intending to buy) to compare those ideal cut stones with other GIA XXX stones and see if you could see a difference. It's also important to remember that anything will sparkle under jewelry store lighting so comparing them under different lighting conditions will give you an idea of which one performs better. Would an experienced eye be able to tell the difference? Yes. Will you? TBD.
 

flyingpig

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

DiamondFlave|1482501533|4109173 said:
does GIA also round down? not just up? In this case the angle could actually be 41.30?

Even if it were so, that the angles were rounded down. Would it be noticeable to the eye of the normal human that is buying diamonds? Or is this just an "academic" discussion with H&A and stuff? A Gemologist told me that with your bear eye you cannot even see a H&A pattern and that most XXX GIA diamonds are basically the same quality of cut to the "normal" eye.
A Gemologist told me that with your bear eye you cannot even see a H&A pattern
False

most XXX GIA diamonds are basically the same quality of cut to the "normal" eye.
False
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

So the second stone is rather the stone to go for bcs its the "safer" choice? As I said, I wont have the option to inspect before purchase. Do you think considering the price, that it is a good deal?

I spoke to the seller again and they told me, that if they shipped me both stones, I probably couldnt tell which one is which :)
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

VS1 is pretty good clarity, and GIA VS1 should be eye clean. Still, kind of inclusions are important for me. For example, black crystal right under the table is not desirable, although not visible for the naked eye. I also dislike feathers touching the diamond girdle. I think, that some SI1 and even SI2 clarity could be very good, and some VS graded stones could be not so attractive for me.
Not everything is only measurements, definitely!
I still cannot tell you which stone I would choose only based on the information that you provided. If you can write us the GIA certificate numbers, this will help!
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

EvaEvans|1482549131|4109285 said:
VS1 is pretty good clarity, and GIA VS1 should be eye clean. Still, kind of inclusions are important for me. For example, black crystal right under the table is not desirable, although not visible for the naked eye. I also dislike feathers touching the diamond girdle. I think, that some SI1 and even SI2 clarity could be very good, and some VS graded stones could be not so attractive for me.
Not everything is only measurements, definitely!
I still cannot tell you which stone I would choose only based on the information that you provided. If you can write us the GIA certificate numbers, this will help!
The 1.15 VVS1 has no inclusions at all, just the comment that the clarity grade is based on internal graining (which should be ok in this clarity grade)

the GIA report Nr. for the second stone (1.2ct) is 1243313495. Thank you for your help!

Flave
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

The VS1 diamond has (in my opinion) perfect ideal characteristic! Still I want to compare it with the VVS1 diamond. Could you please write me the GIA number for the first VVS1 diamond. I just want to see the crown height, the pavilion depth, and the lower half - or just write me that. Then I will tell you my choice between the two diamonds. The VVS1 clarity is really on the top clarity and is 2 grades above VS1. Internal graining shouldn't bother you, I have seen IF diamond with comment about the internal graining. VVS1 ensure you that whatever is the inclusion it's very very small that even under 10X loupe is difficult to see. I wouldn't pass easily the first diamond.
 

flyingpig

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Go with the VS1. I don't how you did calculation. But the VS1 is $5k/carat, not 6k/carat.
The VVS1 is never going to be a super ideal cut. The VS1 has a good chance. Don't worry about inclusions at VS1 clarity
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Both diamonds are around $5000 per carat, if I got the right numbers:
1) 1.15ct = $5700 ..................... 5700/1.15 ............... $5000 per carat
2) 1.20ct = $6000 ..................... 6000/1.2 ................ $5000 per carat

I have seen better VS1 clarity, this one has clouds under the table near the center, and small feather at the girdle. But the proportions are perfect.
If the VVS1 diamond has the same proportions, I would choose the VVS1 diamond. If the VVS1 diamond has worse proportions, I will pass over and go with the VS1. I just want to give DiamondFlave my best answer.
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

thank you for your kind replies!

The 1.15 (vvs1) diamond has the following specs:

crown hight: 15%
pavillion hight: 43.5%
star lenth: 50%
lower griddle/half facet length: 75
griddle: medium-slightly thick (3.5)

The proportions are less good then the 1.2 as I figure. However, the proportions are not "bad" I'm I right?

Cheers and thx
Flave

PS: you are right, there was a typo in the price per carat number.. should have been 5050 ;-)
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Personally I would buy the first VVS1 diamond. Why? It's proportions are nearly perfect, not so perfect as the VS1 stone, but still, very good proportions and nothing to worry about these proportions! Also, not always HCA gives the right result, HCA score could be misleading, please read this article:
http://beyond4cs.com/2012/09/is-the-hca-score-always-reliable/
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Thank you a lot for your opinion! So if I see this correctly in this particular case you would go for the higher quality (vvs1) instead of the better cut? I am just worried abit about the pavillon angle (41.2) as it is really the edge of what is considered to be ideal in terms of light leakage. I can also not really tell if me or my almost-Fi would be able to tell the difference.... probably not?

As I thought that the VS1 and VVS1 are equal in terms of "cant see anything with the naked eye" I was rather leaning torwards the 1.2 ct stone bcs of the better cut (if I only can see the difference with a loupe!). However, I am rethinking this again now. The only thing is that the 1.15 stone is relatively cheap, what makes me wonder a bit ;-)

May I ask what puts u off the VS1 in terms of clarity?

Cheers Flave
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

I have GIA triple excellent cut diamond with 41 degree pavilion angle and 35 degree crown angle, HCA gives it 2.3 score, but I can ensure you, that this diamond is one of the most brilliant and scintillating diamond of all diamonds that I have had!
Not all GIA triple excellent are really excellent, but your VVS1 diamond measurements are really very good, well, only 0.5% in some dimensions is not the "ideal", but still - very good proportions. I wouldn't scarifies the VVS1 clarity for the VS1 clarity of the second diamond for only 0.5% difference in pavilion depth. Also, this VS1 diamond has cloud inclusions right under the table. I am sure, that VS1 GIA is totally eye clean, but I have seen much better VS1. In my option if only these two diamonds are on the table and I have to choose one or the other, I would choose the VVS1 diamond.
I still can advise you to buy from a vendor that has good return policy, because nothing can substitute the human eye. Some diamonds look perfect on paper, but in reality are not so beautiful. If possible you can ask the vendor to create a video with the two diamonds side by side.
Based on the written information that you provided I will get the first diamond. Still some additional information such as Ideal-scope pictures and video is good to see.
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

EvaEvans|1482787730|4109701 said:
I have GIA triple excellent cut diamond with 41 degree pavilion angle and 35 degree crown angle, HCA gives it 2.3 score, but I can ensure you, that this diamond is one of the most brilliant and scintillating diamond of all diamonds that I have had!
Not all GIA triple excellent are really excellent, but your VVS1 diamond measurements are really very good, well, only 0.5% in some dimensions is not the "ideal", but still - very good proportions. I wouldn't scarifies the VVS1 clarity for the VS1 clarity of the second diamond for only 0.5% difference in pavilion depth. Also, this VS1 diamond has cloud inclusions right under the table. I am sure, that VS1 GIA is totally eye clean, but I have seen much better VS1. In my option if only these two diamonds are on the table and I have to choose one or the other, I would choose the VVS1 diamond.
I still can advise you to buy from a vendor that has good return policy, because nothing can substitute the human eye. Some diamonds look perfect on paper, but in reality are not so beautiful. If possible you can ask the vendor to create a video with the two diamonds side by side.
Based on the written information that you provided I will get the first diamond. Still some additional information such as Ideal-scope pictures and video is good to see.

Thank you for your input. You say that considering there are only these two diamonds, you would go for the VVS1. Does that imply that actually both are not "well picked" in terms of price/value?

You also said that there is a feather close to the gridle. Is that a feather or a needle?

Thanks and Cheers!
Flave
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

The VS1 diamond has a feather AND a needle close to (touching) the girdle. Too much inclusions for my taste. I had VS1 diamond with only one pinpoint off center - this I consider "good" VS1.
About the price I cannot input. I am not very knowledgeable about the diamond price, I can only give my opinion which one is better diamond. But based on the price per carat that you wrote, seems that the VVS1 has the same price per carat as the VS1. If the price of the VVS1 diamond is lower ONLY because of the HCA score, I would dismiss this and buy it! If both diamonds are GIA triple excellent, "I" color, no fluorescence, for me there is no sense the VVS1 to have the same price per carat as the VS1. I will repeat, HCA score shouldn't bother you, because this is just one software that has flaws and this software dismiss some measurements like the girdle thickness and the crown/pavilion ratio. I will not relay on the HCA score ONLY when I'm buying diamonds.
If there is some other hidden reason for the lowered price of the VVS1 diamond...why don't you ask the vendor why this diamond is priced the same level as the VS1 diamond?
 

DiamondFlave

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

the vendors are different, thats probably why there is a difference in price. Is it not better to have many different inclusions and still be on VS1 level (meaning that they must all be relatively smal?)?

I am further now considering 2 more stones. I'd also greatly appreciate a opinion regarding:

GIA 6241266306 ($6,100)
GIA 6235727827 ($6,200)



Thank you very much!!!!

Flave
 

flyingpig

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

I will give you a few points.

1. The VS1 and VVS1 is very similar in $/carat, because VS1 is larger than VVS1. In addition, the VS1 is better cut with better spread (at least based on GIA reports). Lastly, there is no set price for a certain carat/clarity/color/cut combo. Pricing differs among suppliers
2.Not only the VVS1 "fails" in HCA, it is also not AGS ideal proportion. Moreover, 41.2 pavilion is clearly outside what PS members and many vendors consider the most ideal. That's three strikes using three different screening tools.
3. First, no inclusion at VS1 clarity is an issue according many prosumer and trade members. Second, those inclusions near the girdle of the VS1 are only second/third most notable after the primary inclusion which is cloud.

The VS1 is more well cut, eye-clean, wider and bigger at the same $/carat. For me, it is a no brainer, unless you value VVS1 clarity.
 

flyingpig

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

DiamondFlave|1482799954|4109740 said:
the vendors are different, thats probably why there is a difference in price. Is it not better to have many different inclusions and still be on VS1 level (meaning that they must all be relatively smal?)?

I am further now considering 2 more stones. I'd also greatly appreciate a opinion regarding:

GIA 6241266306 ($6,100)
GIA 6235727827 ($6,200)



Thank you very much!!!!

Flave
I don't know which vendor you are working with. But he's giving you some seriously good options with good pricing.
Get whatever pleases you the most. They are all good. Cannot find any flaw
 

EvaEvans

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Re: Help with diamond specs for purchase online (1.2 ct diam

Based on my experience, I value more the GIA than the AGS certificates. If you are looking for ideal AGS, then choose from AGS certified diamonds. If your priority is the "ideal" from the excellent cut, then go with your prime feature. But I will tell you one thing - cut is changeable, clarity is not. As a diamond crystal quality, the VVS1 is superior. So, all depends of your priorities.
 
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