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Help with Cartier ring

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rr4

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
5
Hi,

New to the forum, and glad I found you guys.

I need help with an engagement ring.
I found a 1.78carat starburts cut ring at Cartier.
G colour VS1.
It''s pricey, almost $30,000.

Is it worth the money?
Most people tell me you need to see the diamond under a microscope to see the inclusions, if it is already mounted I shouldn''t buy it.

But Ive been to Tiffany''s and other places and to me the brilliance of the Cartier ring AND the setting of it is unique. The way Cartier has set this ring you can barely see the posts on the 4 corners holding the diamond.
Thhoug at Tiffany''s based on the 4 c''s I can get the same ring, W/O the same mount and W/O the starburst cut for less money.....

Is this mount something unique to Cartier? Or am I just being sold a brand.

It is rectangle in shape, actually almost square.
Thinking about going down to 1.00 carat but staying with the starburst cut.

What do you guys suggest.

Is the Cartier diamond ring worth a premium?
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
26,977
Only you can say if the Cartier premium is worth it to *you*.

It's your money, your diamond, your values.

It is not worth it to me.
But you are not me.

I know I can find a diamond that is as good or better for less.
My diamond did not come from Cartier or Tiffany.
That is important to some people and worth it to them.

People vary.
 

Bunnifer

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Messages
227
Date: 11/20/2006 4:48:25 PM
Author:rr4
Hi,


New to the forum, and glad I found you guys.


I need help with an engagement ring.

I found a 1.78carat starburts cut ring at Cartier.

G colour VS1.

It''s pricey, almost $30,000.


Is it worth the money?

Most people tell me you need to see the diamond under a microscope to see the inclusions, if it is already mounted I shouldn''t buy it.


But Ive been to Tiffany''s and other places and to me the brilliance of the Cartier ring AND the setting of it is unique. The way Cartier has set this ring you can barely see the posts on the 4 corners holding the diamond.

Thhoug at Tiffany''s based on the 4 c''s I can get the same ring, W/O the same mount and W/O the starburst cut for less money.....


Is this mount something unique to Cartier? Or am I just being sold a brand.


It is rectangle in shape, actually almost square.

Thinking about going down to 1.00 carat but staying with the starburst cut.


What do you guys suggest.


Is the Cartier diamond ring worth a premium?
I agree, only you can determine if it''s "worth the money"...

I will add that if you are stuck on the starburst cut, it is a branded cut and you will have to get it through an authorized dealer (such as Cartier). The mounting may not be unique to Cartier, but the diamond may be (or may be sold through another dealer without the same mounting.) Anyways, these are somethings to think about when considering if it''s "worth the premium." My boyfriend''s cousin has a starburst radiant solitaire (in 1.0 or 1.5, I can''t remember) and it IS a stunner. However, her fiance did pay a premium to get the branded cut.

Do you have a pic of the Cartier starburst? I would *LOVE* to see it!
 

starryeyed

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
2,398
Hi rr4.

There is something very alluring about Cartier and their jewelry. They have been in the business forever and their pieces are true classics. The designs and workmanship are impeccable. They are internationally known and their pieces hold their resale value. Saying your fiancee''s ring came from Cartier makes a statement about status and salary. There''s the intangible value of having a salesperson at one of the world''s most exclusive shops know your name.

So is this worth it to you? Buying a Cartier ring will ensure a certain level of quality. If you don''t have the time to educate yourself about diamonds, Cartier is the way to go. You can''t go wrong as far as quality goes, but you pay a premium for the little red box. There is the flip-side too. Sometimes the salespeople can be haughty and difficult. Sometimes repairs can take forever. If you''ve dropped thousands in their store and expect service, these shortcomings can be infuriating. They can be a quirky bunch.

So you can succumb to the allure and reputation of Cartier or you can pound the Pricescope pavement, learn about diamonds and get a much better deal on something comparable. It really comes down to the intangibles because Cartier is not about getting the most bang for your buck.

If you get an ring, please be sure to post pictures so we can all drool over them!
 

rr4

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
5
Thanks for all of your responses.

What do you think about the diamond already being set and the fact of not being able to look at the diamond under a microscope to see if it really is a VS1 etc.

Also can anyone comment on the way Cartier has set that ring. I dont have a pic of it, but the rep told me that the diamond has been etched on each corner for the posts to become more "hidden". Any reason why that wouldnt be a good idea?

R
 

Stone Hunter

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
6,302
Date: 11/21/2006 9:18:28 AM
Author: rr4
Thanks for all of your responses.

What do you think about the diamond already being set and the fact of not being able to look at the diamond under a microscope to see if it really is a VS1 etc.

Also can anyone comment on the way Cartier has set that ring. I dont have a pic of it, but the rep told me that the diamond has been etched on each corner for the posts to become more ''hidden''. Any reason why that wouldnt be a good idea?

R
I don''t really think this is a problem. If you were buying from a less reputable dealer then it might be. I think that all of the PS appraisers are skilled enough to deal with a mounted stone. From my experience it is color that will be harder to judge in a mounted stone, rather than clarity. Note: I am a consumer like you. My experience is with my ring and appraiser.
 

Stone Hunter

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
6,302
Date: 11/20/2006 8:58:24 PM
Author: starryeyed
Hi rr4.

There is something very alluring about Cartier and their jewelry. They have been in the business forever and their pieces are true classics. The designs and workmanship are impeccable. They are internationally known and their pieces hold their resale value. Saying your fiancee''s ring came from Cartier makes a statement about status and salary. There''s the intangible value of having a salesperson at one of the world''s most exclusive shops know your name.

So is this worth it to you? Buying a Cartier ring will ensure a certain level of quality. If you don''t have the time to educate yourself about diamonds, Cartier is the way to go. You can''t go wrong as far as quality goes, but you pay a premium for the little red box. There is the flip-side too. Sometimes the salespeople can be haughty and difficult. Sometimes repairs can take forever. If you''ve dropped thousands in their store and expect service, these shortcomings can be infuriating. They can be a quirky bunch.

So you can succumb to the allure and reputation of Cartier or you can pound the Pricescope pavement, learn about diamonds and get a much better deal on something comparable. It really comes down to the intangibles because Cartier is not about getting the most bang for your buck.

If you get an ring, please be sure to post pictures so we can all drool over them!
This only works if you TELL people where you got the ring! Once it''s on your Fs finger the stone, cut of the stone, and the setting are what will show. The name will NOT be visible.

So if you love the cut and the setting see if you can get it for a better price elsewhere, at least that''s what I''d do. If you can''t find it for a better price then you have to decide if YOU love it enough to pay the price. Also check PS vendors for stones with similar stats to see how much extra you''re paying for the branded cut. Knowledge is power.
 

jaz464

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
2,022
If you are dealing with Cartier or Tiffany or similar, I would not worry in the least about seeing the diamond unmounted. If you are the type of person who wants to hand choose your diamond, based on angles, measurements, idealscopes, etc, then I would not deal with these kind of vendors. Cartier is for people who don't want to take the time to learn about diamonds but still want a gorgous ring (and can afford their prices). Or the people who really care about name brands and knowing they have one of the most prestigous in jewelry. You will undoubtedly get a gorgous ring if you go there. Of course, you can get an equally gorgous ring elsewhere for a lot less, but with Tiffiany or Cartier, it is pretty foolproof. If they say it is a VS1, it will be a VS1.
 

rr4

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
5
Will Tiffany or anyothers give me a starburst cut or a setting like that of Cartier?
 

Bunnifer

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Messages
227
Date: 11/21/2006 2:18:39 PM
Author: rr4
Will Tiffany or anyothers give me a starburst cut or a setting like that of Cartier?
Not sure what you are asking...Are you asking whether Tiffany/Cartier will sell you an unmounted starburst cut diamond and/or a semi-mount of its own (Tiffany/Cartier) design? I think it''s unlikely.

Regarding the starburst diamond, authorized dealers are often bound to the policies of the companies which hold the rights to the cut and I think (generally) they do not want to sell just the diamond. Think of it like the Tiffany Lucida diamond...Tiffany only lets itself sell the branded cut and no one else. Now, since I think the starburst cut is owned by two companies (Louis Glick and someone else?) that license their rights, you might be able to buy an unmounted diamond. If you are a skilled negotiator, you might be able to pull it off.


As for the semi-mount of its own design, I think almost all designers are highly protective of their own designs and many high-end designers (think Tiffany, Cartier, Vera Wang) do not like to sell just a semi-mount. Most prefer to sell the "whole package" although I think designers are letting up on this policy. For example, I know that Vera Wang now sells certain semi-mounts whereas it used to adamantly refuse to sell anything but the whole package.
 

winternight

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Messages
887
I recently went to Tiffany and I''m going to check out Cartier sometime this week hopefully. From what I''ve heard the look of how they set the stones is quite different, with Cartier the 4 prong and the way they set it makes it look more like its floating, where with Tiffany the prongs are more integrated in the design - its an elegant but perhaps heavier look. This is if she wants a simple design, the Tiffany art deco rings are amazing too and that''s a very different look.

I''m sure that you can get something amazing for your budget at either shop, but probably a bit more at Tiffany & Co.

Do you have an idea of what kind of settings/rings your fiance would like? Personally I''m thrilled that I''m going to be picking out my own ring.
 

rr4

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
5
In the last week I''ve learned a lot about diamonds.
To me people are placing too much emphasis on the 4 C''s thing is a bit of BS. Yes of course you want a nice diamond but a nice looking diamond doesn''t look the same once its set. Even an ''IF'' ring gets downgraded once its set.
Most jewellers who advertise place heavy emphasis on the 4''C''s and make it seem like there isn''t anything else to look for.

To me this ring I found at Cartier may be too much and too big for my tastes BUT I think the way Cartier set''s and cuts their stones are FAR superior to anything I''ve seen at any of the half dozen jewellers I went to see.

The way the stone is cut and set SHOULD be the priority above the 4 C''s to anyone. What''s the point of running around with a ring that only you may know is a VS1 or VVS1 E colour. Would you wear you rbest dress or best suit with a pair or running shoes??? The Cartier stone truly looks like its floating on one''s finger when compared to other rings where it literally looks anchored.

I''m not sure if other stores can mount the stone like Cartier does - I have yet to see a similar mount.
 

starryeyed

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
2,398
rr4, I would agree with you that Cartier has some really unique designs. You are right that when you buy a ring from them, you buy the whole composition, not a diamond and a setting. It''s a "piece", literally a work of art. I have a few Cartier pieces and LOVE their subtlety and impeccable craftmanship. You cannot go wrong with one of their rings. The longer you have it, the more subtleties you''ll see, and you''ll love the piece even more. No doubt, they are pricey and if size matters, you can get something larger in the same quality for less money. It really depends on your priority.

I can see why you are saying that the 4 C''s aren''t the most important thing. You have been looking at gorgeous stones from a top jeweler, so it''s assumed that the 4 C''s have been satisfied - it''s kinda the baseline. Not everyone comes to the diamond-buying process with your perspective though. Imagine if you had started looking at diamonds that were one step above industrial grade and were trying to figure out why the large rock you selected doesn''t sparkle like it did in the store. That''s when understanding the 4C''s is really important.

You''ve taken this to the next level by looking at that elusive "5th C". Some retailers call it "Confirmation". Some call it "Certainty". In your case, it''s "Composition". It''s about the complete package - the art of the piece. If you LOVE the Cartier ring, BUY IT! Anything else would just be an imitation.
 

jaz464

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
2,022
I have to disagree that the 4 Cs are not important. Cut is the the most important of the 4 Cs and should not be downplayed. Without a superior cut, your diamond will not have the fire, brilliance, and scintillation of other well cut diamonds. For shapes other than round, an ideal cut can be hard to determine with numbers alone and the eyes are indeed the best judge when it comes to ECs, cushions, etc.

You say yourself: "The way the stone is cut and set SHOULD be the priority above the 4 C's to anyone."

Some people strongly value a high clarity and are willing to pay for it, even if no one on the street would ever know it. I know that I don't buy diamonds based on what people on the street know/notice. I have a D and had I gone with an E or F, I would have spent each day staring at my diamond, trying to see the tint that caused it to lose the D rating. It is in my mind, not in my eyes. Everyone places the 4 Cs in their own personal order of priority.

Some people prefer not to get involved in the numbers game and just want to choose a diamond that they find to be the prettiest. That is fine, but an understanding of the 4 Cs is still important so that the price can be properly evaluated.
 

biblobaggins23

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
227
it may be worth more if you die and auction it off, you may get more money for it. but the world isn't going to know except you and maybe a few other people that its cartier or the person who inherits it. it may give you bragging rights, but thats about it. i've searched the internet and have found flawless, premium cut 2cts for 30,000 dollars.

i went into cartier the other day. yes, their designs are out of this world, but many of their engagement rings, in my opinion, aren't designed or any more unique than what i have seen on the net and with wholesalers. most of them are very simple. if simple is what you are going for then, you can get the exact same thing somewhere else but at a cheaper price, and probably A LOT fancier. you are paying for their premium and their PR. i work in PR and believe me its their marketing that makes cartier appear to have the world's best engagement rings, when in fact, they aren't any better than anywhere else.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,069
An ideal cut, hearts and arrows stone G VS1 will run around $20,000. So you are paying close to $10,000 for the Cartier name and the setting. Only you know whether the 30% premium is worth the cost.
 

winternight

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Messages
887
I tried on some Cartier rings this weekend. I thought they were gorgous, you''re right about the setting making the stone look more like its floating.
 

rr4

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
5
Biblobaggins,

What are the bragging rights that you are talking about?
You are correct that no one is going to know that you are wearing a Cartier, BUT no one is AS WELL going to know that you are wearing a VVSI E colour stone WITH the way some of these stones are set AND cut at other stores.

I went to Tiffany's, and there were rings/stones there that had both higher clarity (VVS1) and colour (E), that DID NOT LOOK nicer than the VS2, G ring at Cartier.

So what would you rather do? Wear the ring that you know looks nicer and that people will obviously see is the nicer ring, OR wear the "uglier" one where only you know its a VVS1, E?

My point was that a lot of jewellers have spent a lot of time and money in marketing campaigns trying to "dupe" buyers into thinking ALL rings are the same pound per pound (or 4 C's per 4C's) and that the 4C's are all you need to look at, and that a ring you find at store A with a set of attributes according to the 4C's will look no different than the one at store A of identical attributes. And that is completely wrong.

Yes some Cartier rings are simple - they have 2 lines Classic and Modern - and Classic is what I like. To me the focus should be on the brillaint diamond and not the gaudy work wrapped around the stone. To me the diamond must be the focus for an engagement ring. And Cartier has a very unique way of setting the stone that I havent found anywhere else. They actually etch the stone at each corner so that the claws are almost not visible at all.

I am also in the Marketing industry and I do realize that all companies rely on marketing, BUT that fact shouldn't blind you to the fact that their are brand names out there that are making great products and in some cases STILL better products than that of the generics.

Also my pricing $30K is canadian not US dollars.
 

decodelighted

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
11,534
Date: 11/27/2006 4:21:38 PM
Author: rr4
So what would you rather do? Wear the ring that you know looks nicer and that people will obviously see is the nicer ring, OR wear the ''uglier'' one where only you know its a VVS1, E?
*Personally* I would rather have a LARGER non-branded diamond that looks AS beautiful as the smaller center stones you''d buy for the same price in a Cartier OR Tiffany OR Harry Winston setting ... and, for what it''s worth, I would NOT want a stone that had been "etched" to fit the prongs as that becomes a further flaw of the stone & devalues it (in my opinion).
 

biblobaggins23

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
227
bragging rights i meant by "its a cartier" "its a tiffany" you are paying the mark-up to say that.

my point is that if cartier and tiffany are charging that much, i would expect there diamonds to be much more extravagant than what i saw for the price i would be paying. most of there engagement rings a lot of other companies create and are exactly the same as what other companies carry. i didn't find any of their diamond engagement rings truly unique to tiffany and cartier....(with the exception of one of their cuts, the lucidia and the schulemberger ring). many companies now sell and copy tiffany style ring setting without even going to tiffany. like at tiffany, you can get their 3stone emerald cut anywhere.

plus, i would also expect them to carry nothing below vvs2 in terms of engagement rings for the price i would be paying. if i was going to tiffany, i would only expect them to carry IFs, Fs, VVs1s, VVS2. i would not expect them to sell vs's vs2's for such a prestigious company because these diamonds are obviously not flawless or the best or the most desired or the most perfect especially if they want their company to reflect the quality of the diamonds and want to be viewed in their industry as selling the "best" diamonds. i know tif

a lot of companies have taken advantage of their huge names and jack up the prices as a result of that. for example, i am looking for an all diamond 2ct=3ct all-round diamond ring for my wedding band. it was $11,600 dollars at tiffany and only g, vs2. at this other online place it was 8,000 dollars g, vs2. don't tell me thats not a tiffany mark-up.

how about louis vuitton, thats another example of mark-up or the hermes birkin bag, harry winston, graff diamonds...i would also place tiffany and cartier in this cateogry.

all those companies mark up the prices because they can and know people will by from them thinking there is nothing better out there and that these places are the only places where you can get the best. its a marketing and pr ploy. if it wasn't a mark-up then why would they be selling diamonds more that are the exact same clarity and color and carat and cut than somewhere else?

please don't tell me that cartier and tiffanys are one of them because i know thats not true under any circumstances. they are taking advantage of their name. they have a marketing staff, accounting staff, financial advisors, and PR advisors like any other big brand name. they consult these people regarding prices and will often advise them what a good mark-up would be considering their brand name. of course a engagement ring associate at their stores will tell you there is no market and give you a list of crap reasons.

you can get a good diamond that meets all the most desired 4cs at a reasonable price anywhere if you just look. its not like non-brand name jewelers are selling crap diamonds and trying to rip customers off...

regardless, i hope you find the ring you want at a reasonable price for you. i bet you could even find a jeweler who could replicate any diamond ring they have.

thats my opinion and my 2cents.
 

starryeyed

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
2,398
This thread is so interesting - it really touches on a lot of emotion. There is a real "pyschological pull/push" effect going on here. There has been scientific researched published lately about how a strong brand creates "a strong pattern of activity in the part of the brain associated with positive emotions, self-identification and rewards." Here is an excerpt from an article that appeared in the WSJ yesterday:

This Is Your Brain on a Strong Brand: MRIs Show Even Insurers Can Excite
By KEVIN HELLIKER
November 28, 2006; Page B1
Big brands make bigger brain waves.


According to new research examining brain reaction to commercial brands, strong product identities can create more excitement than weaker ones even in areas generally perceived as dull, such as insurance.

That research, to be presented today at the annual conference of the Radiological Society of North America in Chicago, is the first ever to use magnetic resonance imaging to study the impact of brand-recognition on brains, says Christine Born, the German radiologist who directed the research.


Clearly Cartier is one of those strong brands exciting the brain!

In addition to the allure of the brand, Cartier has been successful for many reasons. Like Hermes, Cartier craftmanship is impeccable. Diamond or gemstone quality is just one aspect of a Cartier piece. The overall quality of a Cartier piece is perfect - from gemstone selection to design to workmanship. Historically Cartier is responsible for a number of innovative designs, like the love ring and the rolling ring. Royalty has commissioned work by Cartier because of the quality and innovation of their pieces. Since 1847, Cartier has been entrusted with some of the world''s most precious stones. Cartier set and sold the Hope Blue Diamond in 1910. Cartier undeniably has a long history of producing jaw-dropping gorgeous pieces coveted by people around the world.

So is their stuff worth it? It really depends on your perspective. I have a few rings - the Birthday ring, the Double C Motif ring, and a few others. (Most I bought overseas when the FX rate was better.) Even people who don''t know the rings to be a Cartier compliment me. It''s always nice to receive a compliment, but more importantly it''s a testament to the fact that the design and the quality really stand out. There is a reason Cartier has been in business since 1847.

Yes, you have to pay for the marble storefront, and yes you have to pay for the glossy brochures, and yes you have to pay for the design research. The stuff is expensive, no doubt. As a French company, the Euro exchange rate makes it even tougher to swallow. But the bottom line is, if you love the PIECE, it''s worth it. It''s not about having a great stone and swapping settings in 5-10 years. The value of the piece isn''t just the diamond and the weight of the metal. It''s about buying a work of art - one that excites you and that you love wearing.

Yes you can probably buy a better quality diamond at a lesser price and have it set beautifully. But this is more about branding, reputation, history, design, and craftsmanship. It''s really a preference, with a lot of emotion behind it.
 
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