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Help with an inclusion

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Justine77777

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 25, 2018
Messages
3
Hello, I hope you can help me please. I'm currently looking at a 1.52ct round diamond. It does not have a certificate, but I trust the jeweller. We're trying to come to a compromise on quality vs price. The jeweller rates it as colour E and S1. To the eye, the diamond is beautiful. However under 10x magnification, there is a very large mark in the centre of the table. It could almost be a Texta mark, but does not look like a spot or a crystal. Am I being jilted? It's valued at about AUD$11,500. Would love any advice as to whether this is what I'm going to have to deal with for the price, or whether I should keep looking around?
 
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There really is no way for us to advise with nothing to go on (grading report, photo, IS, ASET, video....). I don't recommend novice buyers buy an uncertified diamond. You have this jewelers "opinion" of the diamond as a E SI1 add to that the carbon inclusion and it has me worried. This is like you buying a car with no emblems, no VIN number, never test driving it, and never opening the hood and trusting the seller that it really IS a BMW -- because they say so. In the end, the 4Cs are not really what drive the diamond's performance. It is the actual angles of the stone and the precision of the faceting. Nothing you have tells you anything about that. The cost is driven by the actual grading. You have nothing to tell you anything about that.

Call me a skeptic...but, if I take your $11500 AUD and subtract $500 for taxes. That leaves $11000aud, which is about $8200 USD. That would get you a ~1.2 c E Si1 GIA graded. From our other Aussie posters, diamonds in Aussie are much more expensive, even when taxes are included by buying overseas. So, I find the price quoted in the too good to be true department. There simply are no deals in diamonds for us retail buyers.

Example: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4810560

If the jeweler stand's by his grading, make a deal with him. He sends the diamond to GIA for grading. If his grading is upheld, you pay the agreed upon price plus the grading cost. If it is lower, you get out of the deal and he pays for the grading. If it is higher, you pay for the grading and get the benefit.

@TreeScientist and @Kvannebanne and @sledge just went through this process of selecting a diamond. Maybe their perspective would be helpful. @Bron357 and @arkieb1 and @bmfang are all Aussie members and can provide some perspective on the aussie diamond market.
 
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I think my gut feeling is that the mark will be very visible once out of the shop lights. I love your suggestion about the grading and paying for the GIA certificate. I'm very grateful for your advice, thank you!
 
Justine77777 said:
I think my gut feeling is that the mark will be very visible once out of the shop lights. I love your suggestion about the grading and paying for the GIA certificate. I'm very grateful for your advice, thank you!
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If you think it is visible, then don't get this stone. There are many many eye-clean SI1 out there. We are happy to help if you want to buy from the US.

In Australia, Halloway diamonds is very reputable.
https://www.hollowaydiamonds.com.au/

Website is not great, but the company is good.
 
Hi, the first rule is that you want an appropriate lab report, not the “opinion” of the jeweller. Unless he has Gemmological qualification and diamond grading qualifications his opinion is just that.
The things that make diamonds expensive (or cheap) is their colour, cut, clarity and carat weight.
Ignoring size, the most important attribute of a diamond is considered by most to be cut.
Without a great cut it just won’t sparkle as much as it should. This is why so many people on PS talk about angles and the HCA score.
Clarity is probably next, you don’t want to be able to see anything with your unaided eye as you look down at your hand. Some types of inclusions are less noticeable, however a carbon fleck ie a mark looking like a texta mark isn’t good.
Colour is debatable, as diamonds go down in colour grade they start to look more “yellow”. Some people can easily notice this and don’t like it, other prefer the warmer colour. Most people can’t see “yellow” until I or J.
A diamond graded “E” is a high colour, you want a lab report that verifies this.
A big black carbon fleck under x10 certainly doesn’t sounds like a SI, more like an I 1. This again is why you need a proper diamond grading report not just the opinion of the guy who is trying to sell you the diamond!
Here is Australia we dont have a huge choice in diamonds and some vendors aren’t helpful or forthcoming when buyers ask tricky questions or ask to see alternatives.
They want it to stay the “old way” - where you go in, they show you any old diamond they have in stock, they say it’s great so you say yes, pay them and leave.
Not anymore.
We have the internet, we can see the thousands of diamonds currently for sale and we have safe and secure ways of buying and receiving precious gems from just about anywhere in the world.
As an Aussie who has been buying diamonds, gems, expensive jewellery and having jewellery made for over 30 years, I can tell you that it is very expensive to get anything made here in Australia and our “choices” are limited.
I wanted a diamond tennis necklace, i searched high and low for one here in Sydney without luck. I got quoted over $20,000 Australian to have one made. I turned to the US, I got exactly what I wanted (heavens, I even had choices!) for about $12,000 Aust. That includes insured shipping and Customs fees.
So think about getting some suggestions from PSers who can find you a nicer diamond for cheaper in the US.
 
Hi, I've had another look at the stone and it's an F colour, P1. Sorry, I've looked at two stones and I've got the two muddled. I can't see the carbon fleck under shop lights, but it's crazy obvious under the loupe. I can notice colour variations at H and I, but I obviously can't detect inclusions as well as I can colour! I'm extremely nervous about purchasing a diamond online, but also discovered that there's a lot more to choose from than I think I'm being led to believe. I'll have a look at Holloway diamonds. :)
 
Hi, P1 is Aussie for I 1 which is what the US call it.
P is for Pique (French) I is for Included - same grade.
P1 is the lowest commercial clarity grade most people wouldn’t consider buying this low. SI is about as low as most people go provided it faces up as eye clean. Crystal inclusions, naturals and feathers which affect grade can be off to the edge and hidden under a prong.
Just make sure with any diamond you buy you have a GIA report or a report from an accredited diamond grader. You can’t rely on the opinion of the vendor, they just want to sell you their diamond. You will pay more for better colour and better clarity to to ensure you are paying the appropriate price you need a report.
Check out prices on the recommended US diamond vendors sites so you know what a fair market price.
Unfortunately some Aussie jewellers would like you to believe they they have the best and only diamonds in the world!
 
Thanks for calling me in to this thread @rockysalamander. As she said in her post, if a diamond does not have a grading report, don't buy it. As @Bron357 mentioned, when you're buying a diamond, what you're paying for is the 4Cs. Any change in color or clarity, even by a single grade, can mean the difference in hundreds to thousands of dollars in the list price. This is why they've created independent grading labs: To give some sort of standardization to what people can an "F" or a "VS1" etc. If you're buying an uncerted diamond, you have absolutely no clue what you're paying for.

And $11,500 is absolutely ridiculous for an uncerted 1.5 carat that is of unknown cut quality and also could be an I color I2 clarity for all you know. That jeweler is taking you for a ride.

Is $11,500 you maximum budget? As others have said, I would definitely recommend purchasing from an online vendor. I know it can be a bit nerve-wracking to make a large purchase like this sight-unseen, but as long as you are conservative with the color and clarity**, and you let us help you find a well-cut diamond, then I can almost guarantee you'll be satisfied. :)

**By "conservative" with color and clarity, I mean you shouldn't take risks in this department, as returning the diamond from abroad would be a PITA should you take a risk and not like it. So if you think you can notice color at the H level, then I would recommend sticking to G and higher. For clarity, I would recommend against purchasing any stone with medium or higher fluorescence or with inclusions that may affect transparency, such as clouds, twinning wisps, and/or internal graining, as transparency issues are difficult to determine from photos and videos alone. It's easy to take such risk on a diamond if you're in the U.S., as you can always return it no questions asked (as @blueMA recently did with a cloudy VS1 with cloud as the grade setting inclusion), and you may be able to save a bit of money in the process by buying a diamond with inclusions that people are afraid of. But, as a foreigner myself, I would play it as safe as possible with the inclusions. As mentioned by @Bron357, there are plenty of stones in the VS1-VS2 levels with crystals (white/transparent crystals are my favorite :) ), feathers, and naturals that are easy to spot in magnified photos and videos (so you can identify them) but won't have any "hidden" effects on the diamond.
 
Another Aussie. Here is the thing, you need to buy a diamond certified by either AGL or GIA because anywhere else is usually out several grades in colour and clarity. So a EGL USA stone is usually two out in colour and one to two in clarity. EGL from every other place, India, Asia and so on they are anywhere from 2 to 6 grades out in colour and usually 2 to 3 out in clarity. IGI usually a few out in colour and 1 to 2 wrong in clarity. Bogus valuation certificates written by jewellers unless it's a valuer you know, can also be out in colour and clarity. And unless it's from the two most reliable labs in the world it isn't an apples to apples comparison.

You might also want to take the time to read everything you can on here about diamond cut quality that's the thing that gives a diamond fire and sparkle. A decent cut will give the diamond better edge to edge brightness making it appear bigger, so if you buy a slumpy cut it won't matter jack if you buy a high coloured diamond. I would also go for one that is eye clean.

Keep in mind that a budget of that in AUD is approximately 30% less compared to US dollars by the time you get ripped off on the exchange rate. You will also have to pay 5% when you bring in a diamond from the US it's 15% if the vendor doesn't fill in the correct AUSTFA forms.

I would contact the people at IDJ they have been known to work miracles for people on a tight budget even with all of the import and exchange rate costs;

https://idjewelry.com/
 
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blueMA said:
Just to clarify, it should be extremely rare that a non-florescent VS1 would suffer any transparency issue, but as seen in my very unusual case, nothing is 100% and carefully having a seller checkout the stone would be in your best interest.

My VS1 thread https://www.pricescope.com/communit...e-sun-41-pavillion-33-5-crown-vs1-why.240310/
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True. It is extremely rare for clouds to cause transparency issues at the VS1 level, to the point where you had people in the trade begging you to let them know when you returned it so they could study it. :mrgreen: It's even rare at the VS2 level for transparency to be affected, but as you said, anything can happen. For that reason, I would recommend sticking with VS2 and above for international buyers, and avoiding any types of inclusions that could even potentially lead to transparency issues. And of course, always buying from someone you can trust to give you a fair, unbiased judgement before shipping it (like the great vendors here :) ). It's just not worth it for international buyers to go through the potential hassles that a returns process could bring.

Also, I think it's fair to say that you picked out two unicorns (a loupe-clean SI1 without transparency issues and a VS1 with transparency issues) in a single pair of studs. What are the chances of that happening in a single purchase?

...Have you thought about buying a lottery ticket? :mrgreen:
 
TreeScientist said:
Also, I think it's fair to say that you picked out two unicorns (a loupe-clean SI1 without transparency issues and a VS1 with transparency issues) in a single pair of studs. What are the chances of that happening in a single purchase?

...Have you thought about buying a lottery ticket? :mrgreen:
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Right? I couldn't have been more lucky and at the same time be that unlucky. It canceled out.
Buying a lotto ticket went out the door after my 1st course in statistics a long ago...
 
blueMA said:
Buying a lotto ticket went out the door after my 1st course in statistics a long ago...
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May the odds be ever in the favor of the state, who uses all of the proceeds from dreamers to improve the state's transit infrastructure (At least where I grew up in Virginia). :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
 
TreeScientist said:
May the odds be ever in the favor of the state, who uses all of the proceeds from dreamers to improve the state's transit infrastructure (At least where I grew up in Virginia). :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
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Absolutely, just as in the casinos.
 
Actually, lottery profits go to education in Virginia. It's in the constitution.

"Playing Matters - Virginia Lottery
https://www.valottery.com/playing_matters.aspx

In the year 2000, more than 80% of Virginia voters said yes to the creation of the State Lottery ProceedsFund. The measure, now a permanent part of Virginia's Constitution, directs all Virginia Lottery profits be used solely for educational purposes."

I don't think there's enough money in the world to fix the traffic problems in northern Virginia around D.C. I used to live up that way, but on the Maryland side of the Beltway. Now I'm in Richmond.
 
Sorry it took me so long to get to the game, I've been out camping and doing lake adventures over the long weekend.

To more bluntly summarize @rockysalamander's thoughts, there is about zero chance in hell I'd buy this diamond from that jeweler. It's too risky. No certifications, and you are taking the word of the jeweler who has a VESTED interest in selling you the stone. It's a bad combo. Don't walk, but RUN out of the store!

There are too many solid choices available to you. Just buy from a trusted vendor and you will be good to go. I know it may be a scary feeling but having just bought myself I can tell you the people here are truly invested to help everyone that comes through here make THE best decision possible given their budget and criteria.

That said, let us help find you a stone. Most of us work in USD$ so let's establish a budget first for the stone. Then your criteria. Going loosely off some of the conversations above, I've found a few stones that look promising. The biggest downfalls I see is you are giving up a little bit of color; however, all these stones are certified, super ideal cut, from quality & trusted vendors and will impress.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ils/1.402-j-if-round-diamond-ags-104098386006
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/1.500-j-vs1-round-diamond-ags-104099054006
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9894
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3986363.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3916959.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970293.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3983289.htm
 
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