Help with a red spinel

[voce]

https://mastercutgems.com/Products-...-GemMedia.php?FromPage=1&ProductMediaID=34648
This is what a ruby gem brief looks like with a clarity filler. I would contact AGL and make sure they will do the same for spinels, if you've decided to buy the spinel and test it after.

 

[icy_jade]

Do look out for non-heated with oiling. There are a few Lotus articles on such stones... scary stuff.

 

[chrono]

There’s a lot of unstated treatment and extremely good synthetics for red spinels. I won’t buy without a lab report regardless of which vendor, which is why I asked about return shipping, which tends to be complicated when shipping from US to Asia.

 

[T L]

Good point about synthetics Chrono. I have AIGS lab briefs for all my red spinels with the exception of my Burmese spinel. I didn’t pay much for it several years ago, so I didn’t care. I know it’s natural because I louped it and saw a negative crystal inclusion typical of spinel, so that gave me peace of mind. AIGS mentioned “no treatment” on them. With a very included spinel, they may check for treatment. I didn’t go with AGL at the time because I felt AIGS sufficed for spinel. I would not use them for corundum or emerald though. I have AGL briefs for my two sapphires.

 

[icy_jade]

Do labs only disclose oiling if asked? Then it doesn’t give a lot of assurance even if the cert says unheated? It must state untreated? From what I recall most labs seem to state unheated rather than untreated?

@T L is AIGS reliable? I do see a lot of gems with AIGS... from what you mentioned it doesn’t seem like it is very reliable?

 

[T L]

Do labs only disclose oiling if asked? Then it doesn’t give a lot of assurance even if the cert says unheated? It must state untreated? From what I recall most labs seem to state unheated rather than untreated?

@T L is AIGS reliable? I do see a lot of gems with AIGS... from what you mentioned it doesn’t seem like it is very reliable?

I think it’s reliable for stones other than corundum and emerald. I’m not sure I would send a heavily included gem there, but you can email them and ask if they check for clarity enhancement. They might suffice. I did have issues with them with a sapphire (I have a whole thread on that), so no to corundum. They also denote secondary color. If there’s no treatment, they don’t show it.

They are a respected lab though, not some fly by night dinky lab in the middle of nowhere that no one ever heard of. There’s lots of those unfortunately.

Here’s an example of my “padparadcha spinel” lab brief. No comments about treatment though. I’m assuming they assumed no treatment. Their corundum gem briefs show treatment, but probably only what they can test for.

 

[Atwater]

https://mastercutgems.com/Products-...-GemMedia.php?FromPage=1&ProductMediaID=34648
This is what a ruby gem brief looks like with a clarity filler. I would contact AGL and make sure they will do the same for spinels, if you've decided to buy the spinel and test it after.

Do look out for non-heated with oiling. There are a few Lotus articles on such stones... scary stuff.

There’s a lot of unstated treatment and extremely good synthetics for red spinels. I won’t buy without a lab report regardless of which vendor, which is why I asked about return shipping, which tends to be complicated when shipping from US to Asia.

I did plan to get AGL brief or report to make sure what I get is natural with no treatment. But I have decided not to pursue this spinel since there are sufficient doubt regarding its treatment. I am willing to get the brief or report myself if there is a high chance that the report confirms it is natural without treatment. You (and pricescope) are awesome! I learned a lot and you probably saved me all those troubles. Thanks!

 

[Atwater]

So I have moved on in my search for a red spinel and found this one:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsBZ4CfnLQN/

I think it is more a pinkish red? But it sure looks gorgeous and I love a trillian cut. I anticipated the price would be high but I summoned courage to ask. So it is 2.77ct, 8.88mm, and the price is $2800/ct. It does not have a certification and he/she could do it for free and asked my preference of the lab. At $7756, it is really out of my price range. But I realize I do not have knowledge about what kind of price should be expect for such a gem at different sizes. Will you please comment on this spinel as well its price? Also what would be a general ballpark price for different sizes? Thanks a lot!

 

[voce]

That looks like a Mahenge spinel. For those, the standard prices I've seen for up to a 2 ct Mahenge spinel were around $2k/ct, slightly less during sales. I don't know if the $2.8k is for a size premium, since spinels are supposed to get exponentially rarer at the 1 ct and 2 ct marks. The sky's the limit on how people price a large Burmese red spinel, though.

If you like the Mahenge spinel, my recommendation is to restrict your search to around 2 ct for something more affordable.

 

[icy_jade]

Wow. I’ve been looking at spinels too but if they are all so pricey I think I’ll have to stick to rubies... the 2 ct rubies I’ve seen are much more affordable in comparison

That’s a really pretty spinel

 

[T L]

Yes, the price seems appropriate these days. It’s pinkish red. I would get an incandescent lighting shot, since outdoor shots tend to make them more reddish. Hopefully it’s a reputable vendor who will provide a reputable lab report and has a decent return policy. Make sure the stone has strong red fluorescence.

 

[chrono]

Wow. I’ve been looking at spinels too but if they are all so pricey I think I’ll have to stick to rubies... the 2 ct rubies I’ve seen are much more affordable in comparison

That’s a really pretty spinel

Except that I cannot get a 2 ct untreated ruby with that intense colouration for anywhere close to the asking price of that spinel.

 

[voce]

If you want a 2 ct ruby that looks like a saturated spinel, and untreated, it's at least 10x the price ie. $20k. With all due respect, icy_jade, the rubies you bought were pinkish and silky i.e. not top clarity and brilliant, so that's why the price was affordable. Quality for quality on the 4 Cs, spinel is still a better deal, especially in bigger sizes.

 

[icy_jade]

Except that I cannot get a 2 ct untreated ruby with that intense colouration for anywhere close to the asking price of that spinel.

Saw this recently... preloved 3ct Burmese unheated, GIA cert but clarity not so good and color may not appeal to everyone. $4.5k

 

[icy_jade]

If you want a 2 ct ruby that looks like a saturated spinel, and untreated, it's at least 10x the price ie. $20k. With all due respect, icy_jade, the rubies you bought were pinkish and silky i.e. not top clarity and brilliant, so that's why the price was affordable. Quality for quality on the 4 Cs, spinel is still a better deal, especially in bigger sizes.

I haven’t seen any good deals on truly red spinels. Even the included ones can be quite scarily priced.

Agree that the rubies I got are affordable for what they are.

 

[voce]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/593331...l-unheated-very?ref=shop_home_active_13&frs=1

This probably won't meet Atwater's standards, but for people who don't mind a window, there's this. Can get for a lower price if you buy through Paypal.

 

[voce]

Agree that the rubies I got are affordable for what they are.

You live in Singapore, right? I think a lot of US vendors are tacking on the travel cost to them to get these stones into the US, including customs. Maybe Singapore is more tax advantaged for Burma origins?

 

[icy_jade]

You live in Singapore, right? I think a lot of US vendors are tacking on the travel cost to them to get these stones into the US, including customs. Maybe Singapore is more tax advantaged for Burma origins?

I think in general US is further from source and more expensive for CS. I’m guessing import taxes, income taxes and transport plays a part, plus the more hands the gems pass through, the higher the mark ups. Also settings are way way cheaper in Asia, probably cheaper labor helps quite a bit. Not sure re: rentals and other overheads... I suppose everything kind of adds up and gets tacked on as cost. Places like Singapore have really low income tax rates compared to US.

But Singapore is one of the most expensive cities in the world, so I’m sure CS can be much cheaper in other Asia cities. Personally I like shopping in Hong Kong as the gem shows are held there, good access to reputable labs and no VAT. Other cities in Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam have ready access to native gems so I’m guessing much cheaper prices if you find good sources.

Who knows, maybe gems are much much cheaper in Africa?

 

[qubitasaurus]

Lol the four asian tigers and cheap 'luxury goods'(/items which are status symbols) is an oxymoron.

Singapore is the most expensive city in the world to live in (for 5 years running now)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...he-worlds-most-expensive-city-to-live-in.html

Finding less expensive items and services is only possible by leveraging the less developed ecconomies arround it (you are essentially profiting of the wealth inequality in the region). I agree with Icy_jade you would need to find ways of getting better access to the sources which are outside singapore, but this can be said wherever you are in the world (just we are geographically more local to the source).

Income tax is low, but the cost of housing for many of us starts at several million dollars (indeed I lived in a 1 bedroom appartment up until recently which cost 1.3 million. It was nice. But it was not in the city center and it wasnt that big. Ontop of that 1.3 million there is a 15% tax incurred the moment you buy the property. This means that if you buy you can expect to pay a few 100,000 dollars in taxes.). Cost of buying a car starts at a few 100 000. This is not a cheap place.

 

[icy_jade]

Yeah... before everyone thinks that it’s cheap to shop in Singapore, I should clarify that expensive jewelers are very easy to find in Singapore.

I’ve almost wanted to faint a few times when I heard the prices for spinels, tsavs and other gems I asked about. Definitely more expensive than the recommended vendors on PS.

 

[qubitasaurus]

There used to be a nice jeweler in the regent up near tanglin mall. I love the regent's coffee shop so I used to drop into the jeweler. Once I started asking for quotes..... lol I needed a spare 50-100 k just to start buying the lower priced items. Did the same thing with the glitzy jewelers in delfi mall before I knew better. Then I figured lee hwa and chow tai fook were mall jewelery chains so they couldnt be expensive could they? Yeah 3 ct sapphires (decent colour, but nothing spectacular) for 25 k. Probably more expensive now as prices have risen over the last few years. .

 

[icy_jade]

There used to be a nice jeweler in the regent up near tanglin mall. I love the regent's coffee shop so I used to drop into the jeweler. Once I started asking for quotes..... lol I needed a spare 50-100 k just to start buying the lower priced items. Did the same thing with the glitzy jewelers in delfi mall before I knew better. Then I figured lee hwa and chow tai fook were mall jewelery chains so they couldnt be expensive could they? Yeah 3 ct sapphires (decent colour, but nothing spectacular) for 25 k. Probably more expensive now as prices have risen over the last few years. .

Ah I think of these as “chop radish” moments. Like a nearly 3 ct loose spinel for 20k, etc. Again I don’t want to name any stores and some of them have absolutely gorgeous stones and designs but omg the prices they quote!

I think some of the stores really do cater to crazy rich asians...

 

[voce]

Ah I think of these as “chop radish” moments. Like a nearly 3 ct loose spinel for 20k, etc. Again I don’t want to name any stores and some of them have absolutely gorgeous stones and designs but omg the prices they quote!

I think some of the stores really do cater to crazy rich asians...

Omg, for 20k you could get a 11ct Mahenge spinel!

 

[T L]

Omg, for 20k you could get a 11ct Mahenge spinel!

Where? Mahenge spinels have gone up in value at least five times per carat for stones greater than five carats in size.​

 

[budmanbudman10]

I've bought red spinel from this seller before (~4ct cushion cut). You can get an ok stone for a decent price but you need to be aware of a few things and ask a lot of questions.

I had him keep the stone until he went to Bangkok/Lotus next (many months later) so I could get a report. The report showed that some colourless oil was used on the stone but, as it was extremely minor, I kept the stone. I would have preferred if he had removed the oil and sent to Lotus afterwards.

I would also recommend:
-Asking if there are any cracks on the stone surface
-Ask the vendor to put the spinel in alcohol/acetone for a day to remove any oiling (especially prior to having any lab report prepared)
-Getting some photos/videos of the stone with light coming from the side to help ID the inclusions

The stone was also never quite as bright as in his photos/videos. I think he used some powerful lighting.

 

[chrono]

@icy_jade
The US has no import taxes for gems or jewellery.

 

[voce]

Where? Mahenge spinels have gone up in value at least five times per carat for stones greater than five carats in size.​

Remember that one I posted in my Gemstone Ramblings thread, after the Namibian demantoid? Almost 12 cts, for just under 20k on Etsy. I'd totally snatch that if it was under my credit card limit, but alas, I am not rich.

 

[chrono]

Remember that one I posted in my Gemstone Ramblings thread, after the Namibian demantoid? Almost 12 cts, for just under 20k on Etsy. I'd totally snatch that if it was under my credit card limit, but alas, I am not rich.

You made me go look. It is heavily included and there's no way it's eye clean, which explains the price.

 

[voce]

You made me go look. It is heavily included and there's no way it's eye clean, which explains the price.

It's not eye clean for sure. The bigger a gem is, the harder for it to be eye clean. I still dig the saturated color despite the inclusions.

 

[icy_jade]

Remember that one I posted in my Gemstone Ramblings thread, after the Namibian demantoid? Almost 12 cts, for just under 20k on Etsy. I'd totally snatch that if it was under my credit card limit, but alas, I am not rich.

Wow still seems like a bargain even with the inclusions