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Help with a 5ct+ ring

Rhino

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PintoBean|1489602336|4140559 said:
I do have to say, even with the inclusion, it was a gorgeous stone. With the inclusion eliminated, I can imagine it being infinitely more beautiful!

Oh pinto! If you could've seen the expression on our faces when we got it back. :bigsmile:
 

gm89uk

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It's interesting that the canal made by the laser seems to be thinner in diameter to the size of the inclusion it zapped. Not sure how that is possible. What happens to the black carbon inclusion? Does it change colour when it's heated, is there some reaction, does it simply vaporise? What's left in its place?
 

Rhino

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gm89uk|1489612779|4140638 said:
It's interesting that the canal made by the laser seems to be thinner in diameter to the size of the inclusion it zapped.

It's generally the case all the time.

Not sure how that is possible. What happens to the black carbon inclusion? Does it change colour when it's heated, is there some reaction, does it simply vaporise? What's left in its place?

In general one of two things can happen depending on the nature of the inclusion.

If it's a dark crystal the intensity of the laser will generally neutralize the color of the crystal.

If there is a black feather the canal will make a path to the feather which they will then soak and neutralize the color making it translucent or transparent.

Both are permanent and why they will be graded and recognized by conservative labs like GIA/AGS as opposed to clarity enhanced (filling).

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,
Rhino
 

Rockdiamond

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Hi Jon,
General point, not regarding any specific diamond under discussion
You have mentioned that laser drilling improved the clarity grade of a diamond- see below.
In my experience, drilling can never increase a clarity grade- it can improve the way a diamond looks, if it lessens the impact of the imperfections visually- but that does not cause in improvement in the clarity grade- in fact it can lower it.


Rhino|1489440876|4139822 said:
Greeetings PS friends,

As I operate in a spirit of transparency I'll lay it out simple. These won't be precise numbers particular to the diamond in this thread but you'll get the idea.

Rough diamond purchased at $20,000 to sell for $22,500.

After cutting, grading etc. it comes back a grade lower than what was paid. Cutters and buyers of rough who submit to GIA, AGS, etc. can and often do contest the grade and request a recheck if they feel it was graded to harshly or even perhaps loosely. This can be done on color, clarity, polish etc. in fact we've done it with clients diamonds on consignment in the past if we felt it would get a higher grade with GIA/AGS and have seen grades changed to their benefit.

Getting back to the diamond ...

In order for the diamond to sell it must be priced more in line with market value for the brand. There is a notable difference in price from SI1 to Si2 so for a short period of time we had it priced considerably lower than what we actually paid. So ... diamond we paid 20k for we were offering for 16k and losing capital if someone wanted to purchase it with the former inclusion. We did however raise it to the grade we paid for by eliminating the inclusion, not via the filling method which GIA/AGS will *not* grade, but by laser. Why? Because it's permanent and is never undone. Doing that made the diamond 100% eye clean, raised the diamond to the clarity grade it was purchased for and instead of selling it for the $22,500 price is now being offered for $20,400.

A branded item like this has a current list of $89.4k.

If you have any other questions I'm happy to answer.

Kind regards,
Rhino
 

Rhino

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Rockdiamond|1489691633|4140981 said:
Hi Jon,
General point, not regarding any specific diamond under discussion
You have mentioned that laser drilling improved the clarity grade of a diamond- see below.
In my experience, drilling can never increase a clarity grade- it can improve the way a diamond looks, if it lessens the impact of the imperfections visually- but that does not cause in improvement in the clarity grade- in fact it can lower it.

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your comment. The SI1 grade was something we felt strongly about before we even sent it in so i identify with you on that.
 

Rockdiamond

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Rhino|1489692734|4140988 said:
Rockdiamond|1489691633|4140981 said:
Hi Jon,
General point, not regarding any specific diamond under discussion
You have mentioned that laser drilling improved the clarity grade of a diamond- see below.
In my experience, drilling can never increase a clarity grade- it can improve the way a diamond looks, if it lessens the impact of the imperfections visually- but that does not cause in improvement in the clarity grade- in fact it can lower it.

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your comment. The SI1 grade was something we felt strongly about before we even sent it in so i identify with you on that.
AMIGO!!

By all means, we can definitely toss back a few to commiserate over how GIA ( and AGSL) sometimes screw the pooch and are too tough on a grade.
But the issue at hand is- can a laser drill improve a clarity grade ( not the appearance, but the GIA clarity grade), and the answer there is no.
 

Rhino

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Rockdiamond|1489693288|4140989 said:
Rhino|1489692734|4140988 said:
Rockdiamond|1489691633|4140981 said:
Hi Jon,
General point, not regarding any specific diamond under discussion
You have mentioned that laser drilling improved the clarity grade of a diamond- see below.
In my experience, drilling can never increase a clarity grade- it can improve the way a diamond looks, if it lessens the impact of the imperfections visually- but that does not cause in improvement in the clarity grade- in fact it can lower it.

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your comment. The SI1 grade was something we felt strongly about before we even sent it in so i identify with you on that.
AMIGO!!

By all means, we can definitely toss back a few to commiserate over how GIA ( and AGSL) sometimes screw the pooch and are too tough on a grade.
But the issue at hand is- can a laser drill improve a clarity grade ( not the appearance, but the GIA clarity grade), and the answer there is no.

Yo compadre! I hear you. Hope this finds you well man and look forward to tossing back a few! You doin Vegas this year or do I have to come crash your place in the city? :bigsmile:
 

Rockdiamond

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I don't know mi amor.......you're tempting me to walk over to Penn Station and hop on the LIRR:)

You're ALWAYS welcome here if you're in the Rotten Apple.
Mi officina es su officina

All this Spanish- we may have to build some sort of a wall... :whistle:
 

Rhino

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:D
 

Rockdiamond

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gm89uk|1489612779|4140638 said:
It's interesting that the canal made by the laser seems to be thinner in diameter to the size of the inclusion it zapped. Not sure how that is possible. What happens to the black carbon inclusion? Does it change colour when it's heated, is there some reaction, does it simply vaporise? What's left in its place?

Here's the reason gm
The laser drills a channel to get to the carbon- but it does nothing to the carbon itself.
After that, the diamond is boiled in sulfuric acid- the channel drilled by the laser allows the acid to bleach the black carbon so it turns white.
 

Rhino

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Rockdiamond|1489697990|4141013 said:
gm89uk|1489612779|4140638 said:
It's interesting that the canal made by the laser seems to be thinner in diameter to the size of the inclusion it zapped. Not sure how that is possible. What happens to the black carbon inclusion? Does it change colour when it's heated, is there some reaction, does it simply vaporise? What's left in its place?

Here's the reason gm
The laser drills a channel to get to the carbon- but it does nothing to the carbon itself.
After that, the diamond is boiled in sulfuric acid- the channel drilled by the laser allows the acid to bleach the black carbon so it turns white.

I've seen the laser itself neutralize the crystal.
 

Rockdiamond

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Rhino|1489698353|4141016 said:
Rockdiamond|1489697990|4141013 said:
gm89uk|1489612779|4140638 said:
It's interesting that the canal made by the laser seems to be thinner in diameter to the size of the inclusion it zapped. Not sure how that is possible. What happens to the black carbon inclusion? Does it change colour when it's heated, is there some reaction, does it simply vaporise? What's left in its place?

Here's the reason gm
The laser drills a channel to get to the carbon- but it does nothing to the carbon itself.
After that, the diamond is boiled in sulfuric acid- the channel drilled by the laser allows the acid to bleach the black carbon so it turns white.

I've seen the laser itself neutralize the crystal.

I've never seen the actual process first hand- but from what I understand, boiling is a step of the process regardless.
You'd need to do so to clean any residue form the laser process.
I guess if the crystal is very small, the laser could burn it, but if was that small, it's not really neccesary to drill.....
 

Rockdiamond

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bpc|1482199080|4108472 said:
You're not concerned about all the black at the top of the image?

My worry is this:

When confirming the sale of the rough to me the seller noted that it was expected to be a I-J/VS stone. Recently though, he told me that AGS was debating between I-J/SI, and at time of sale it was expected to be H-I/SI which contradicts our original emails stating I-J/VS.

I actually don't know anything about the fluorescence if any, in fact I don't know anything besides that it was expected to be I-J/VS.

The pricing isn't very transparent, it's taken months to get to this point with multiple delays, and they managed to lose the first stone which I haven't gotten an explanation for yet.

Thanks

This is a very important point which needs clarification.
AGSL will not discuss any grade prior to issuing one.
The client is never aware of any sort of internal discussions between the AGSL graders about the grade. The same holds true for GIA.
Once they tell us the grade, we can dispute it and pay for a re-check- but people outside the lab are not privy to internal debates prior to issuing a grade.
 

Rockdiamond

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I stand corrected.
AGSL said that if the relief of a crystal changed due to the drilling, it could increase the clarity grade.
I have not asked GIA, but I will tomorrow.
 

arkieb1

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I don't know how the "current list value of 89.4K" even applies in this case. The diamond was a unfortunately a beautifully cut beautiful looking stone turned into a stinker because it had a black inclusion everyone could see in the centre of the table. That alone lowered it's value. I feel for the customer, I even feel for the vendor, no doubt this was a bad outcome for everyone involved.

Then it got zapped to remove the inclusion and rightly so it dropped in price AND in value. Now it's a beautifully cut, beautiful looking stone that has had laser treatment. Yes it's permanent, but it was treated, which means it started out life with issues and the only way to sell it was to get rid of the problem.

At 60K+ or - I'd still be looking at buying a non enhanced stone. At any more than that prospective buyers have rocks in their heads literally to stump up that much to buy a beautifully cut beautiful looking but still laser treated stone. Why? Because time and time again I've seen on here and out in the real world people trying to resell them and they can't, doesn't matter how beautiful the stone might happen to be or well cut it might happen to be, or that's it's an exclusive custom cut, or that it only had one tiny thing done to it that is permanent - the fact remains if you can go out and buy something that didn't have the inclusion to start with, and wasn't treated even for a higher price that will retain it's value over time then unless the enhanced stone is a too good to be true absolute bargain price then people aren't going to buy it. On paper it's still an enhanced stone. If you went to resell it, its an enhanced stone. Hopefully someone that appreciates the quality of the cut will eventually buy it for a great price.

And hopefully something else can be cut for the OP.
 

vintagelover229

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I kind of find it ironic that many women will accept laser treatment for skin issues, or beauty treatements that are usually only a temp thing but do it to a diamond of that size and beauty all the sudden its a no go and a no no.

I've solved your problem Jonathan,just send the darn thing to me and it shall be no more cause for debate! I will hoard it forever and love it and shall call it precious even with if it STILL had its beauty mark. Marilyn Monroe had one, not sure if it was real or not but it certainly added to her charm and I highly doubt if it was real/had been removed that no one would have told her she was less of a natural beauty because of it ::)
 

CareBear

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Hi Jon, silly question, can gunk get caught in a laser drill channel over time?
 

Rhino

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arkieb1|1489706124|4141050 said:
I don't know how the "current list value of 89.4K" even applies in this case. The diamond was a unfortunately a beautifully cut beautiful looking stone turned into a stinker because it had a black inclusion everyone could see in the centre of the table. That alone lowered it's value. I feel for the customer, I even feel for the vendor, no doubt this was a bad outcome for everyone involved.

Then it got zapped to remove the inclusion and rightly so it dropped in price AND in value. Now it's a beautifully cut, beautiful looking stone that has had laser treatment. Yes it's permanent, but it was treated, which means it started out life with issues and the only way to sell it was to get rid of the problem.

At 60K+ or - I'd still be looking at buying a non enhanced stone. At any more than that prospective buyers have rocks in their heads literally to stump up that much to buy a beautifully cut beautiful looking but still laser treated stone. Why? Because time and time again I've seen on here and out in the real world people trying to resell them and they can't, doesn't matter how beautiful the stone might happen to be or well cut it might happen to be, or that's it's an exclusive custom cut, or that it only had one tiny thing done to it that is permanent - the fact remains if you can go out and buy something that didn't have the inclusion to start with, and wasn't treated even for a higher price that will retain it's value over time then unless the enhanced stone is a too good to be true absolute bargain price then people aren't going to buy it. On paper it's still an enhanced stone. If you went to resell it, its an enhanced stone. Hopefully someone that appreciates the quality of the cut will eventually buy it for a great price.

And hopefully something else can be cut for the OP.

Mid 60k in this caliber will get a person an SI2 that has eye visible inclusions, likely multiple and likely not reversible.
 

Rhino

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vintagelover229|1489706683|4141053 said:
I kind of find it ironic that many women will accept laser treatment for skin issues, or beauty treatements that are usually only a temp thing but do it to a diamond of that size and beauty all the sudden its a no go and a no no.

I've solved your problem Jonathan,just send the darn thing to me and it shall be no more cause for debate! I will hoard it forever and love it and shall call it precious even with if it STILL had its beauty mark. Marilyn Monroe had one, not sure if it was real or not but it certainly added to her charm and I highly doubt if it was real/had been removed that no one would have told her she was less of a natural beauty because of it ::)

:bigsmile:

As long as you don't charge me too much to model it. :wacko:
 

Rhino

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CareBear|1489738592|4141144 said:
Hi Jon, silly question, can gunk get caught in a laser drill channel over time?

I've never seen it before. Bear in mind you're talking something smaller or along the lines of a strand of hair. Good question.
 

Rhino

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Rockdiamond|1489698848|4141017 said:
I've never seen the actual process first hand- but from what I understand, boiling is a step of the process regardless.
You'd need to do so to clean any residue form the laser process.
I guess if the crystal is very small, the laser could burn it, but if was that small, it's not really neccesary to drill.....

Just for the record boiling isn't necessarily done all the time. I've seen the process and there have been times they'll simply laser and hand the diamond right back.
 

Rockdiamond

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Rhino|1489762061|4141222 said:
Rockdiamond|1489698848|4141017 said:
I've never seen the actual process first hand- but from what I understand, boiling is a step of the process regardless.
You'd need to do so to clean any residue form the laser process.
I guess if the crystal is very small, the laser could burn it, but if was that small, it's not really neccesary to drill.....

Just for the record boiling isn't necessarily done all the time. I've seen the process and there have been times they'll simply laser and hand the diamond right back.

Interesting Jon- did you see a stone lasered here on 47th st?
I spoke to the top guy who drills here and he said boiling is an essential step- and it's done every time
 

Rockdiamond

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Learning new stuff every day!
I just got off the phone with GIA.
They will plot a laser drill line.
In terms of clarity- the adviser agreed that the possibility of a grade improvement after a drill was pretty much nil- he could not guarantee it because the graders don't know if the stone had been previously graded- so a comparison isn't really possible from the lab's perspective. He did point out that the channel itself is considered to be equivalent to a natural imperfection. Therefore a reduction in grade is likely.
He was surprised that AGSL will improve a grade post drilling.
He also mentioned something that will take yet more research- internal lasering- which does not leave a channel.
Maybe that's what you were talking about Jon?
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1489781397|4141363 said:
Learning new stuff every day!
I just got off the phone with GIA.
They will plot a laser drill line.
In terms of clarity- the adviser agreed that the possibility of a grade improvement after a drill was pretty much nil- he could not guarantee it because the graders don't know if the stone had been previously graded- so a comparison isn't really possible from the lab's perspective. He did point out that the channel itself is considered to be equivalent to a natural imperfection. Therefore a reduction in grade is likely.
He was surprised that AGSL will improve a grade post drilling.
He also mentioned something that will take yet more research- internal lasering- which does not leave a channel.
Maybe that's what you were talking about Jon?
RD,
Internal lasering is a facinating technology. They take multiple lasers with an intensity not great enough to vaporize the material and focus each one from a different position on a spot within the material. Where the lasers meet the intensity is amplified to the level necessary to vaporize the material. It can therefore alter the material internally without leaving a trail.

I saw glass products that were made using this technique displayed by Russian company at the Tucson show back in the 1980's. They were able to use computers to direct the lasers and create these amazing hologram looking scenes by slightly etching the glass internally, creating a 3D image contained completely within a block of clear glass.

I do not know where that technology stands with regard to diamond. As you can imagine, working with glass could be a completely different ball game. I will see what I can find out. I will also take a picture of my glass etching to post here. It's very cool and quite beautiful. Especially when you think of when it was done. Well before the Russians took up hacking :o
 

Rockdiamond

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Kewl beans Bryan!!
I think I've seen the sort of thing you're talking about.
I was surprised when the guy at GIA mentioned it, as I've never heard of such a thing in diamonds.
The company that does drilling also does boiling, which is what we've used them for. They've been in business since the '50's- old school as it were.
Totally possible that something newer has come along.
 

Rhino

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Fascinating Brian.

Rock ... I've seen it done right there on 47th. BTW GIA also graded the diamond SI1 post the drill. All interesting info.
 

gm89uk

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How about colour! Interesting Bryan, sounds like what they've been doing with radiotherapy in oncology for years.
 
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