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Help - Urgent...help me choose - under time constraints

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cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
I have 2 stones to consider

Both I, SI1, first one may have a few less inclusions

1.48, AGS cert (AGS0), 7.30mm wide, scores under 2 on the HCA advisor
crown angle 34.6%, Pav 41.1, depth 62% and table 56%
Price - 6500, but cash only and no return on the stone. Cannot get it set here.

1.56, GIA cert (AGS0 dimensions) - 7.50mm wide, scores 3.9 on the HCA advisor
crown angle - 34.7, Pav - 41.4, depth - 61%, table 58.8%
7500, but can use credit card, and can return within 15 days. Can get it set here.

Which one should I choose? Both are over the net and I will take the stone for an appraisal as soon as I receive it.

Please help quick...the first one is on hold and will be released in a few hours if I do not call the guy.

Thanks,

Tom
 

DiamondOptics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
380
"1.48, AGS cert (AGS0), 7.30mm wide, scores under 2 on the HCA advisor
crown angle 34.6%, Pav 41.1, depth 62% and table 56%
Price - 6500, but cash only and no return on the stone. Cannot get it set here."

I might suggest the one above, but see if you could have it appraised by an expert prior to purchase before making a non-refundable deal.

I can not undestand why they will not give you a return policy...

Check them out first...



Buy Informed!
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
They normally have a return policy but claim that since they must ship this diamond from the cutter in Israel (which is weird, since I've heard the majority of stones are cut in Israel), they cannot offer return terms on this stone.

They are a vendor that advertises on this site and I have seen no negative feedback on them.

Also, they said I cannot make the sale contingent to an appraisal. I would have just let this one go except it seems to be exceptionally well cut and meets my 4c's pretty darn perfectly. and the 5th C, $6500.
 

jetcaptain

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 3, 2002
Messages
72
----------------
On 1/22/2003 4:22
9 PM cartetg wrote:

I have 2 stones to consider

Both I, SI1, first one may have a few less inclusions

1.48, AGS cert (AGS0), 7.30mm wide, scores under 2 on the HCA advisor
crown angle 34.6%, Pav 41.1, depth 62% and table 56%
Price - 6500, but cash only and no return on the stone. Cannot get it set here.

1.56, GIA cert (AGS0 dimensions) - 7.50mm wide, scores 3.9 on the HCA advisor
crown angle - 34.7, Pav - 41.4, depth - 61%, table 58.8%
7500, but can use credit card, and can return within 15 days. Can get it set here.

Which one should I choose? Both are over the net and I will take the stone for an appraisal as soon as I receive it.

Please help quick...the first one is on hold and will be released in a few hours if I do not call the guy.

Thanks,

Tom
----------------
Cash only and no return??? You might be getting a great deal, but NOT LIKELY. Stone being released in a few hours??? Sounds like the old "hard sell" to me. Personally, I would run quickly away from stone number one, and the vendor who is selling it. That's too much money for me to risk on a diamond I can't return if I don't like it for whatever reason.
 

DiamondOptics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
380
"Also, they said I cannot make the sale contingent to an appraisal. I would have just let this one go except it seems to be exceptionally well cut and meets my 4c's pretty darn perfectly. and the 5th C, $6500."


Any way you wanna look at it, $6500 dollars is NOT
monopoly money, to be toying with!!!

Unless you love the thrill of gambling, I would advise you stay away from this deal.

Protect yourself first!!!

Its all sugar and spice, until you spend your money,
then all you have left is your diamond and no return policy.


Buy Informed!

Kirk Konst
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Unfortunately my suggestion is to keep looking.

Both stones are spectacular on the pricing, but the first one is out because of the cash only and no return policy. That means that if you get the stone and something is wrong, whatever it may be..you can't return it NOR can you put a stop payment on the credit card and have the card co. handle it for you. Once you purchase stone #1 its yours for better or for worse. Are you willing to take that chance to get a really good price and no supporting service? I'd say not. $6500 is still alot of $$. You also have to ask yourself..what are they trying to hide by giving no return policy and cash only? That doesn't sound reputable to me. Also keep in mind that just because they advertise on here does not mean they are reputable. Money is money, and advertising is advertising. Anyone selling rocks can put up an ad. Pricescope does not *endorse* any of its advertisers.

Stone #2 almost fares a 4 on the HCA..so forget it. Yes the price is good, but do you want a 1.5c rock that sparkles like a dirty window? I'm sure you can find a better stone for slight more $$ that will give you under 2.0 on the HCA and you can feel secure in your purchase. Or bring down the carat weight and get something under 2.0.

Utilize the tools online to help you with your final decision so that you aren't stuck getting a stone, having it appraised (which costs $$ by the way), finding out its a dud and then returning it. That eats up your time which costs $$ also..and in the end it's not worth the stress.

Good luck!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Did a quick search on Pricescope and found the following diamond. It's a little smaller than the 1.48 you were looking at, but the price is similar to the 2nd stone but the HCA score is .6. Plus its a G which is much higher quality than an I.

The reason I posted it is to show you that reputable dealers with *return policies* will sell you amazing stones in your price range. This stone is an H&A as well. Anyway just an FYI.


1.35 G, SI1
GIA Cert, AGS0 H&A
Table: 53%
Depth: 60.7%
Crown Angle: 33.8
Pav Angle: 40.7
Polish: EX
Symm: EX
Fluor: No
Culet: No
$7405.00

HCA Score: 0.6 (EX, EX, EX, VG)

View the stone at:

http://www.niceice.com/certcopies/gia12369468/index.htm
 

ccuheartnurse

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
1,800
I dont know what to tell you. That price is very good for the 1.48 & the #'s seem good. What is the clarity for this stone?? I would imagine there is no BScope for the stone either. You are taking an incredible gamble for that kind of money. I hope the vendor you are working with is experienced enough to help you with the purchase. Jan mentioned once there was a stone over in Isreal with the same deal but I told her to forget it. She was just presenting it to me but she herself told me she didnt get a good feeling & that the stone was an HCA of .3 or .4, cant remember now. No offense Gary, but very low scores dont generally mean a great stone. I knew she had the stone I bought inhouse & that too me was more comforting. A good 1.40's stone is hard to come by & even harder to come by at that price $6500. I remember Jonathan & Jan both had an SI-1, G, 1.43ct, 7.30mm stone each, & each selling for about $8600 - $8800 (if I recall correctly). Both stones are long since gone, but this is just an example of what may be found again.

Good luck, again, I have no advice other than perhaps to trust the #'s. Perhaps you can strike a bargain with the vendor you're dealing with that if you yourself dont like the stone & they do, that they will buy it from you for what you paid?? Or let you put that cost into buying a stone from them??

Judy
:)
 

golfer

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 7, 2002
Messages
128
If there's one thing I learned in doing my search, it's never get too panicky or worked up over losing the perfect diamond. ALL the vendors will tell you that you'd better hurry, the diamond will sell at any minute, etc. BS. First of all, diamonds I looked at weeks ago are still available. The idea that your diamond will be instantly grabbed up by waiting buyers is just not true. More importantly, the database is 10s of thousands of diamonds -- no ring is irreplaceable, and no ring is the amazing deal that's better than anything else you'll find. Always relax, take your time, and be sure.
 

ccuheartnurse

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
1,800
Sorry, just read colour & clarity of SI-1, I. I need to keep my glasses on when I read.


Judy
:)
 

ccuheartnurse

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
1,800
Me Again,
I went to Jans site & they have an SI-1 I 1.41 ideal for the same money you're looking at spending for the stone in Isreal. I dont know if thats a stone they have for personal stock or if thats a stone all the vendors can get. Maybe someone here can tell you or you can email Jan tomorrow & ask her about it. Jonathan doesnt have any 1.40s in SI-1 on his site or on the scanned page.

Judy
:)
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
Funny, when i put the crown (14.2) and pavilion percentages (43.1) in instead of the angles it give me 0.9 on the HCA...in the TIC range.

How much variation should be allowed from the highest to lowest angles and highest and lowest percentages on a Sarin or Megascope report?

The crown angle goes from 32.7 to 36
The pav from 40.7 to 43.3

What is reasonable variation in a Sarin report?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
CC--Can you clarify on who Jan is and what her site info etc is for the poster (and me)? Thanks!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
cart--which stone are you referring to now?

the angles are always more accurate than putting in percentages. you can get very wide ranges when using percentages on the HCA vs. angles.

as to your other questions on accuracy and which to use with such a wide range, i have no idea. on the report, isnt there one particular angle called out for both crown and pav?
 

ccuheartnurse

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
1,800
Hi Mara,
The Jan I'm referring to is Jan of Diamond Brokers of Florida. She doesnt post here & her reasons lay with herself & the administrators here but I can tell you from a customers stand point she's great. If you want to check out her site, go to:
www.diamondbrokersofflorida.com

Judy
:)
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
Sorry Mara...I think from the previous posts I had eliminated the first one, the 1.48, due to the lack of return terms.

I'm talking about the 1.56 that scored 3.8 when using the angles, 0.9 when using the depth %'s.

Yes the Sarin report has averages, but it also lists a range for each of the measurements. I'll attach the scan of the Sarin report.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback on this.

sarin[2-cropped.GIF
 

ccuheartnurse

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
1,800
Well then, my stones a 0.7 if I use % instead. I have to go read about this again. Perhaps its been answered here, but why are the %'s more acurate than the angles? I mean there isnt a little bit of difference, there's quite a bit of difference.

Judy
:)
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
Update - vendor just said he would check and see if he could come up with some "special return terms" and get back with me after I emailed him and said thanks, but no thanks.

I'll let everyone know what happens, but as of now I'm planning to go with stone #2. I don't want to get hung up on size, but my girl wanted a 2ct and I've gently worked her down to expect something more in the 1.5 range...but I don't want to go down to 1.35 (but thanks for the info!)...that's giving up too much. I will examine this stone and return it if it doesn't appraise well or if it doesn't have enough fire/brilliance.
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
----------------
On 1/22/2003 6:27:11 PM ccuheartnurse wrote:

Well then, my stones a 0.7 if I use % instead. I have to go read about this again. Perhaps its been answered here, but why are the %'s more acurate than the angles? I mean there isnt a little bit of difference, there's quite a bit of difference.

Judy
:)
----------------
I think Mara said that angles are more accurate, not the percentages.

It says that on the bottom of the HCA advisor page as well.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Angles are more accurate than percentages. I am not 100% sure on the technical reasons for this, but I have read on a few previous posts that it has to do with angles being accurate measurements (e.g. they measure in angles), and percentages being a rounded number of the angle. Many people get a large range when they play around with the angle vs. percentage. Also I have read on here that you should always use a crown ANGLE vs percentage but that if you need to, can use a pavilion % rather than an angle and it will not be as big of a difference.

Also I ran a few searches and found this short thread discussing the differences in the ranges on the crown and pav angles on a Sarin.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/range-values-on-sarin-machines.1269/

cart--I understand your reasoning on trying to get the carat weight up to par..good luck with stone #2. Be sure to get it appraised and checked out by an independent appraiser and try to get one that does BScope reporting etc. as well. It comes in handy!
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 1/22/2003 4:36:16 PM cartetg wrote:

They normally have a return policy but claim that since they must ship this diamond from the cutter in Israel (which is weird, since I've heard the majority of stones are cut in Israel), they cannot offer return terms on this stone.

They are a vendor that advertises on this site and I have seen no negative feedback on them.
Seems like I heard the same sales tactic this fall. Is this normal business practice?
 

ccuheartnurse

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 22, 2002
Messages
1,800
Thank You Mara & Cartetg,
In my defense I came off of night shift & stupidly didnt go to sleep all day.
I have since slept. LOL Thanks again for the clarification.

Judy
:)
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
----------------
On 1/23/2003 11:44:16 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------
On 1/22/2003 4:36:16 PM cartetg wrote:

They normally have a return policy but claim that since they must ship this diamond from the cutter in Israel (which is weird, since I've heard the majority of stones are cut in Israel), they cannot offer return terms on this stone.

They are a vendor that advertises on this site and I have seen no negative feedback on them.
Seems like I heard the same sales tactic this fall. Is this normal business practice?

----------------
I don't know, after I pressured him by saying I had another stone, he decided to give me the normal terms, but even his normal terms are kind of a hassle (notarized letter to use CC, credit card limit of $5000, even when you pay the 2.2% fee (accept only wire transfer over $5K). I ending up going with stone #2, the 1.56. I ordered an idealscope and loupe, and I'll take the stone to get appraised after I receive it. I'm getting it from uniondiamond.com over in Atlanta...I will probably go by the B&M location when I return the stone to have it set. Tony was very helpful and patient with my decision, and I will give a report on the stone when I receive it.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

Tom

PS - forgot to add that Tony is setting it in a 3 stone platinum tiffany setting with 2 sapphires for $7800 total, I think a pretty good deal as long as the diamond checks out...
 

enibas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2002
Messages
58
i am not feeling that policy for the first stone, despite the price. but that's me. if it were for a MUCH smaller stone (<.25) i'd say fine, but that's too much money to not have a return policy or appraisal-based purchase policy.

but that's me.
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
I got the diamond today from Union Diamond, and I'm not saying that they knew, but I blame this more on the lab. I received a supposed GIA, SI1, I color, and took it to 2 appraisers here in Birmingham and both placed it as a SI2 and J, with the SI2 being the real problem. SI1's are supposed to be eye clean, correct? Well, you could see a big dark crystal inclusion right through the side of the pavilion with the naked eye. One appraiser I went to showed me a SI2 certed stone that was cleaner than the GIA SI1 I received.

As for the color, I was shown an H at one place and I could tell the difference between it and my diamond. The appraiser said that generally a lay person shouldn't see much difference between an H and an I...

What do you guys think? Luckily, they have a return policy, I put it on the credit card, so I should be OK taking it back. Hopefully they can find one to my liking, if not I guess I will go somewhere else.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience! See aren't you glad you didn't buy the first stone now...what if the same thing had happened and you had no way to return the stone!


There can be a difference in color between H and I in my opinion, depending on the stones themselves, and a huge difference *in my opinion* when you start talking J. If you saw a big difference in the H and your stone, your stone is probably more of a J.

When you were working with UD, did you specify that the SI1 you were getting HAD to be eye clean? If not, then they might have just been going with what the paperwork said vs what they saw with their eyes. But if you told them..Hey I want an eye clean stone and they assured you this one was one...I'd be a little ticked.

Definitely keep us posted on your progress and if you find other stones that fit your criteria. You may also be able to finagle a slightly better color and/or clarity with UD for this mistake..e.g. along the lines of, you sent me this dud, and it appraised at lower in both clarity and color, what about giving me an H VS2 or EXTREMELY eye clean SI1 for my trouble. (obviously that is not how you would approach it but you get the idea!)

Good luck!!
 

photogold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
31
Cartetg,

Did you get an actual GIA grading report with the diamond? If they say it is GIA graded, they may mean that one of their own employees did the grading, and they were trained by GIA.

What is the hurry? It sounds like you may be working with some slightly shady jewelers. Try some of the online jewelers recommended here or on diamondtalk.com.

It's going to be tough getting a decent quality 1.5 ct for less than $8,000. You will probably need to stick with a J color, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Don't compromise on cut, that will affect the beauty of a diamond more than anything. It doesn't cost that much more for a very well cut diamond.
 

photogold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
31
A quick search on pricescope about this one?

http://www.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=1102954&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=

1.48ct., I color, SI1 clarity, AGS 0 ideal cut Hearts and Arrows! $6017 through pricescope!

That will leave you enough extra money to buy a beautiful platinum ring.

If you go above the magic number of 1.5 ct. you will be paying dearly. No matter how big a diamond you buy, somebody will always have a bigger one. But if you get an ideal cut, nobody will have a more beautiful one. Good luck

Wow, I just noticed that it is likely the same diamond you listed as your choice #1. This price is through UScerted diamonds
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
Union has pretty good feedback on here, and they are physically within driving distance, and had a good return policy. Yes, the stone came with a honest to God GIA report...I was very surprised because I thought GIA was very conservative on the grading, but the appraiser I went to told me that sometimes stones get resubmitted and resubmitted until the jeweler gets a cert that they like...this is a little strange though - doesn't it cost money to get a stone certified and recertified over and over?
 

cartetg

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Messages
24
OK...wanted to give an update of my situation. Tony at Union D is trying to work me into this stone:

1.53ct, VS2, I, Table - 55.7, Depth - 61.5
Symmetry from GIA report is only "Good" not Very Good or Ex
polish - very good
cutlet of 0.8% - does this matter or mean anything?

Crown angle- avg is 34.6 deg, but ranges from 34.4 to over 35, and is over 35 degrees in 3 places around the perimeter

Pav angle- avg is 41.1 deg, ranges from 40.9 at 2 points to 41.2 at one point

Scores a 2.6 on the HCA

price - 7500

What do you guys think?

One thing - the GIA report is from late 2001 - don't I need to get a new one?
 
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