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Help on AGS cert vs Cut Advisor

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BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Please adviseJust purchased a diamond and the cut advisor rates it as a 5.1. The stone is AGS Ideal 000 for Polish, Sym and Prop. Color =I, Clarity= SI2, Carat=.797 also Table is 56%, Crown angle is 35.4, Pavilion angle is 41.1 Cutlet is pointed Girdle is Faceted at 1.2% to 1.7 %Cut advisor says to purchase only if price is a concern. I bought it for the AGS Ideal not price.Also it says it is polish = VG along with medium girdle. Why does AGS say IDEAL and advisor is different? Is this a good buy? I can still return it at this time. Purchase price was $2464.00Thanks,
Brian
 

BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Yes, it helps! Thanks.What should I be aware of about returning the diamond, of course insurance of the value. I am nervous about sending it back through the mail.Thanks,
Brian
 

StevL

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
598
Send it "Registered Mail" for the value you have paid. Keep all of your paper documents concerning the price. Good luck, and happy holidays!------------------
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
BrianHP, I’m really sorry to hear about low rating for your stone. Perhaps you've read already about problems with AGS-ideal grade in the tutorial: www.pricescope.com/tutor_agsideal.asp The combination of the steep crown and deep pavilion angles cause partial light leakage. Could you see the dark area under the table of your stone?As for the price, it is not bad except unfortunate combination of crown and pavilion angles.Here is an example of the close stone rated *excellent*:Brand name Hearts and Arrows "A Cut Above": http://nchs.aureussolutions.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/44563/DFullView.d2w/report
0.838crt-Icol-SI1clar-AGS0-T54%-C34.6%-P43.1%-$2992Cut Adviser Rating: 1.8-ExcellentThis one is also AGS ideal but has an excellent beauty rating. It is more expensive than yours because of higher clarity grade and weight.
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Hi,This diamond has a steep/deep angle combination-one of the worst AGS0 cut grade combinations. If you read the tutorial here you will learn about why the AGS 0 cut grade is too broad and can mislead consumers into thinking that any diamond with a 0 cut grade is going to be beautiful and worth the price premium.I would return it and start over.Sorry, but I hope this helps.lawmax
 

BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Yes, now that it's pointed out I do notice the dark area under the table. At the time of purchase I did inquire about a Sarin report and or the Pavilion, Crown numbers etc..but I was told they were not necessary since it was AGS 0 and that it was Hearts and Arrows quality. In his words 'It doesn't get any better' The company even sent a scope that showed the H and A cuts. I guess the scope visuals are more sales tools than reality? Live and learn I guess, I am just glad I am under the 10 days so I can return the diamond. I really don't mind paying the extra dollars for a diamond that I want but this one was advertised as near perfect.Thanks for everyones help and stayed tuned for round two!Brian
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Hi Brian,I sent you an email with a possible stone. I think you can do better for a few hundred more which may be negotiable.Often the diamond is with the manufacturer/wholesaler until sold, unless it is out for inspection with another dealer. I don't think you should pay any extra shipping-I sure wouldn't.
lawmax
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Hi Brian,Sorry your last post disappeared. It must have been some kind of server/software error.Well, you know what my response to you means even if it's confusing to those who never got to read your post!
lawmax
 

BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Lawmax,I am sure this post will be pretty close to the one that got lost.I have returned the above diamond and started round two.I am interested in another AGS000. I am really gun shy at this point of the AGS000 certification but I am giving it another try.Diamond is:
Color G
SI2
.797
56% Table
34.4 Crown angle
41.1 Pav angle
Girgle .9 to 1.7Cut Advisor says:
Brill = Very Good
Fire = Good
Scin = Good
Spread = Good
Over all a 3.3 or very Good- Worth buying if price is right. Sales offered the stone at $2880.00Stepping back, I have been able to read everything here (several times) and alot from other sites in the time that I have put in to looking for a diamond. I have found this site to be accurate in every way, along with the Cut Advisor already saving me from a less than desired purchase! Sales people LOVE to push/brag that AGS000 is the best there is and nobody ever has to worry about quality because of this 000 rating. I am quickly thinking less and less of it.So, am I expecting too much, that if I buy an AGS000 it should rate more than 3.3 on the Cut Advisor rating scale!? I will keep looking, or maybe I am expecting too much. Thanks for helping, and giving me a place to vent.Brian

R12240.jpg
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Hi Brian,Of course you're not expecting too much.When you're done with your search, you will find the diamond that's just right for you. It's out there!Thanks for the kind words about the site and the cut adviser. You'll be an "expert" soon.
Imagine what you could teach some of your local jewelers.
lawmax
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brian,Here is one tip. Consider Tolkowsky proportions as a starting point: 34.5 crown and 40.75 pavilion angles. Deviation from these proportions should be in 4:1 or 5:1 inverse relationship. I.e. if crown angle increase 1 degree pavilion angle should decrease about 0.2-0.25 degree.In your example above 41.1 pavilion angle should be compensated by shallower crown (about 33 degrees) to keep the good score.You can find excellent scoring diamonds within AGS0 but it also allows diamonds that are leaking the light.At the same time using Garry Holloway knowledge one can find great stones outside AGS0 and safe quite a bit of money.As for missing post, it is real mystery to me
 

BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Thanks, great tip!I just wish sometimes a little more information was given for each diamond on web sites. Sometimes you don't get much, like measurements etc...Brian
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
You're right Brian. Usually there is not enough info on each diamond listed in the web. I'm trying to convince some dealers to provide us with the Sarin data so we'll be able to evaluate their ratings automatically.I hope eventually it'll work out.
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Hi Drew,It's so great to hear success stories. Again, I commend you for working until you got what you really wanted.I'm sure the diamond is amazing-it will be a real treat to look at it every day. I know I'm always entertained by looking at mine in all the different types of lighting I encounter.
lawmax
 

BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Please don't take this as negative,I would do it all over again. I am VERY happy! Thanks again,
Brian
 

BrianHP

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2000
Messages
24
Hello everyone,Well I finally have another stone, it is:GIA cert
Polish – Ex
Sym - Ex
Color G
SI1
.71
Diameter 5.78 ( 5.77 – 5.80 )
Crown Angle 34.4 o
Crown Height 15.4 %
Pavil Angle 40.7 o
Pavil Depth 42.7 %
Cutlet 0.7 %
Table 55.4 %
Total Depth 60.9 %
Girdle % 0.7 – 1.2Rates excellent on HCA, I really notice a difference from the last stone I had, particularly in different light settings. Wow, it really looks beautiful! Some thoughts about all of this, or the way I feel about it all.
I bought an H&A type diamond to feel safe in what I was getting. I think I would have been very happy with an above average cut non H&A stone but how do I get it? No one wants to provide any information! Also I wanted to shorten this process since I have been at it for some time….. I wanted a very nice cut and got it. But I don’t want to say from where or exactly what I got so I don’t give them any credit.I have dealt with 2 vendors on the Internet for this diamond purchase, they both asked me to write up something to post and say I had a good buying experience from them. Sorry to say, It really wasn’t that great, one sold me an AGS000 that leaked light and was returned and the other just seemed like I was talking to a used car salesman. If it wasn’t for them having the diamond I wanted I would have kept looking. If vendors really want me to be happy and get my business, and return business than post the Sarin numbers so I don’t have to chase my tail and talk to sales people, because they don’t help anyways!Consumers also need more Independent appraisals to chose from, while I think an okay service is being performed I feel things can get way too chummy if more choices are not provided.So,
Give credit to where credit is due, which is Pricescope, HCA and special thanks to Lawmax, I would have been lost with their help!Thank you all,
Brian_HP
 

drewg350

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
10
Hi Lawmax. It is great to look at my fiance's stone and know I have what I wanted. I know I would always be second guessing myself if I kept my original stone. She is sooooo thrilled by its brilliance,(the compliments she gets doesn't hurt either) and it meant so much more to her knowing all the effort I put in to get it. It was truely a wonderful expierience that we will treasure our whole lives.
 

drewg350

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
10
Congrat's Brian, I'm glad to hear that all the trouble was worth it. I went through exatly the same thing you just described. It is so frustrating. I hate how the "Ideal" AGS grade is so broad and misleading. I think it is a scam on the consumer. It seems to work too. I haven't seen anyone on this site or Diamondtalk who have said that a 63.% total depth is good. Yet that falls into AGS "Ideal". Thank goodness for all the great folks on this site. They helped me make a great choice just like you and I'm so happy!!!!!!! CONGRATS!!!
 

lawmax

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
1,317
Brian,Thanks for posting about your experience. I'm sorry it wasn't better, but glad you have a diamond you and your fiancee can always feel good about.I would be willing to bet that it will look amazing compared to what anyone else you know is wearing. Most people have never seen one like it.You and I have discussed your experience and we appreciate your feedback here. As you know, we are working on an appraiser section.Take care and I wish you a lifetime of happiness,
lawmax
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Brian,Congratulations with your diamond! I'm happy that you finally got what you wanted. Although not everything was smoothly for you your lady will have a great diamond.
Thanks for kind words and best wishes for your engagement!leonid
 
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