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Help needed - 10 days to choose between 2-diamonds-cut-vs-clarity

Keep DIAMOND A - F VS2 or pay £2.2k extra to upgrade to DIAMOND B - E VS2

  • Keep DIAMOND A

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Upgrade to DIAMOND B for £2.2k

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • Return the diamond and start search all over again....

    Votes: 6 60.0%
  • Total voters
    10
D

diamondnewbie000

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 24, 2017
Messages
29
Hi all, we bought a diamond a couple of weeks back and have some time to exchange if needed. I'm struggling as I've got a stone which I like but cannot sleep as I am not sure if all the internet advice on metrics should have been ignored. I've seen around 50 stones and they are all starting to look the same so I hope you don't mind me picking your brains!!

The one I have is:
DIAMOND A:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...7-Carat-F-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-09Z851593
Enchanted diamonds 93.7 score
F VS2 1.7 carat
GIA 7223246706
HCA score 3
Depth 60.3
Table 60
Crown Angle 33.4
Pavillion Angle 41.2.
Size 7.72 - 7.78 x 4.68 mm.
3% girdle - very clean - nothing on the girdle super sparkly. Cannot see a thing with the loupe.
Table is larger but this seems ok visually to me. It's a 60/60ish diamond which there seems to be different information on!

This one I might exchange for is £2.2k more expensive:
DIAMOND B:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...5-Carat-E-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-256138620
Enchanted diamonds 100% score
E VS2 1.75 carat
GIA 1166600222 -
HCA score 1.6
Depth 62.2
Table 56
Crown Angle 35
Pavillion Angle 40.8
Size 7.75 7.71 4.81
Quite a busy table. Eye clean but you can see several inclusions with the loupe. This one is smaller than the last but is a little whiter.

Photos of both are on the links. but I've also included some side by side pics. The unset stone (with sticky out prongs) is the second diamond which is more expensive (and the one I could swap for).

Question is, is the difference that noticeable for the £2.2k increase? Have I made a terrible choice? Please help!!!

Thank you!

K xx

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To be clear, the picture of the ring alone is Diamond A and the professional picture is Diamond B.
I've been told that both are leaking light in the advice sought from others below:

Diamond A: 1.70 carat, F-color, VS-2 clarity, GIA Excellent cut round on Enchanted Diamonds. The diamond is showing heavy obstruction and light leakage under the table facet in the red ideal scope image. The pavilion depth is 44% and in my experience the critical tipping point where light begins not to strike off of the pavilion facets is 43.5%. Also, the crown angle of 33 degrees is much too shallow, it's not likely to produce a good balance of brilliance and dispersion, especially with the 80% lower girdle facet length.

Note that the pavilion depth for the 1.75 carat, E-color, VS-2 clarity, GIA Excellent cut round on Enchanted Diamonds (also a historical listing) also has a 43.5% pavilion depth and is showing signs of light leakage under the table facet in the 12 o'clock region.

Neither of these diamonds has "super ideal proportions" and those "hearts" are far from that classification, there is too much space around the hearts and too much irregularity in size and shape.

Also that

The first diamond's pavilion angle is 41.2 and that is quite large which leads to light leakage through the pavilion. It is an acceptable diamond but not one that is recommended.

The second diamond has much better proportions and will reflect much more white light; thus appearing more sparkly.

Any thoughts welcome!

Kx
 
Can you post IS and ASET images?
 
Between the two, I definitely prefer the second, much better proportions, smaller table, etc. However, my personal preference will be neither. Is there a particular reason for going with such a high color? If you drop down to G, I think that you might be able to get an even better cut and perhaps even more ct for your money. G is still very white. Also, do you have to stay with this vendor?
 
Hi both, OH prefers the colourless. He thinks G is too low and it's his money... whereas I was happy with a H SI2 - GIA 2181183436. He said colour was too yellow despite decent cut an eye clean.

Re IS images, the below are from the enchanted diamond link.

I took some of my own with the iphone too but they are not very good! I' ve labelled them 1 & 2.

The cut of the second is better - the question is, is it worth the extra 2.2k?

I would prefer to go with this retailer as I've seen so many stones through them. We've already paid for my ring also..

Thanks for looking at this, appreciate any advice given!
K

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The real-life IS images appear to be tilted but 2 still looks better and more symmetrical. Smaller table and higher crown will also give more coloured fire flashes, AIUI.
 
OoohShiny said:
The real-life IS images appear to be tilted but 2 still looks better and more symmetrical. Smaller table and higher crown will also give more coloured fire flashes, AIUI.
Click to expand...
Thanks OoohShiny! We did take videos of both in natural daylight and with direct sunlight. Neither of us could see a difference in the amount of fire flashes. I took a couple of videos but cannot upload as they are too large! 2 is better yes. But the table is less clean and its a lot of extra cash for something that we can't see..... Hence the post!!!
 
Also have this for diamond A

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Diamond A has a huge table, I really don't like that, most people here aim for table between 53-58 with some exceptions. It has a shallow crown angle as well, so more pintpoint type of sparkly flashes will be produced and much less fire. It doesn't score good on HCA. I can clearly see in the pics which one is the first stone and which is the second. The 2k difference is not just for better cut, but also for better color.

Can you tell us what your overall budget is? Maybe there is something else on the site.
 
Hi SimoneDi,

Thank you for your thoughts, they are much appreciated.

I was unable to tell the difference in either sparkly flashes or fire when I examine both stones side by side in daylight, direct sunlight and spot lighting. Yes the £2k is for better colour too - but again, not something I can personally see myself when examining side by side under a grading lamp or otherwise. These are not diamonds I'm buying on a website and unfortunately I've already ruled out 48 other stones and these are the best I can get with my budget.

The second diamond has quite large inclusions which I can see with a loupe. It does look a touch whiter in reflective light but my other half also noted that it looked dead on the edges which makes me reluctant to spend the extra money. This is why I'm here I guess. Does the Math really matter when I'm unable to see it?
 
diamondnewbie000 said:
Hi SimoneDi,

Thank you for your thoughts, they are much appreciated.

I was unable to tell the difference in either sparkly flashes or fire when I examine both stones side by side in daylight, direct sunlight and spot lighting. Yes the £2k is for better colour too - but again, not something I can personally see myself when examining side by side under a grading lamp or otherwise. These are not diamonds I'm buying on a website and unfortunately I've already ruled out 48 other stones and these are the best I can get with my budget.

The second diamond has quite large inclusions which I can see with a loupe. It does look a touch whiter in reflective light but my other half also noted that it looked dead on the edges which makes me reluctant to spend the extra money. This is why I'm here I guess. Does the Math really matter when I'm unable to see it?
Click to expand...
Honestly, you seem to have made up your mind. You are the end wearer, I would pick neither. My first stone was a H&A 60/60 stone (59/59 really) - I loved that stone, but the stone was also perfectly symmetrical with perfect hearts and arrows. I have since changed a couple of stones and they are all H&A precision stones and I can definitely distinguish differences when compared to generic 3x stones. Now, that is not to say that everyone should follow the same example. Perhaps, your eyes are not trained enough yet, perhaps you will never see the difference, just go with whatever you like. My vote is till for diamond 2 from the 2 but I would seriously consider looking elsewhere as well.
 
If you can't see any difference between the stones then it doesn't seem to be worth spending an extra $2K. If you love the stone you have then you should keep it!

Most folk on here will advise buying the best cut you can, and rearranging the other specs according to budget.

Here's a super ideal round in the same ball park as yours just to compare, I can't see the prices of your stones but I'm guessing this will be more:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3622373.htm

And here's another with lower colour:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3273933.htm
 
Thank you both, really appreciate the thought you've put into my quandary. Sadly a couple of things apply here which don't help me (and ultimately we have to pay the price for).

1) My husband doesn't want to buy anything online and having seen so many stones is convinced they all look the same cut wise. Unless we can source it in London, it's unlikely we'll be able to purchase it.

2) The £2.2k difference is $3000 difference. We'd be paying this for the second stone I guess which we can't see a material difference in quality despite knowing mathematically it is better and that someone with expert eyes will know it was better side by side. Although to be fair these stones do look much more symetrical - even more than Diamond B (or 2 as I keep interchanging). Snowdrop13, that WF diamond looks amazing. It would be around $3k over our budget! Also we were looking for no fluorescence.

3) My husband COULD see the diff between a G and a F stone. He said DEF fine - G not fine. This was tough for me as I can't see it myself

4) We couldn't see the marginal difference between these two stones and so wonder if we are not sophisticated enough to see the difference - if we should be paying more to get super ideal cut. I'm certainly humbled but the expertise on this forum! It's extremely impressive!

5) I would have loved to have gone 2ct+. We have the budget but my Husband thinks the larger stones look like costume jewellery on my 3.5 size finger. 1.7 is as big as he would go!

It's all been a bit of a crazy balancing act but I've really appreciated the advice given on PS. People on here are really open and willing to share their expertise which is extraordinary! Thank you !
 
diamondseeker2006 said:
The second stone is cut so much better, I'd definitely switch if those were the only two choices.

Absolutely look at the F Snowdrop just posted. It looks great and I would compare it to the E and eliminate the first stone totally.

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R175-395294373?
Click to expand...

Hi Diamondseeker2006! Sorry I posted a min ago before I saw your reply. You think even with the cluster of inclusions in the table that is a stone worth sourcing? Also here are no IS or ASET images with this stone.

Thanks,
K
 
Why does your other half not want to buy online?
 
He's really old fashioned. It has it's pros and cons!
 
Sorry, I didn't realise you were in the U.K. I also just assumed you were buying online as the stones you have listed are with an online company?

I'm in the UK too and have bought from Whiteflash in the past. It's a shame you can't persuade DH otherwise- even with taxes added I reckon it's still cheaper to buy from the US.
 
Well I can try! I originally only looked at Blue Nile only.

Is it the A Cut above diamonds that everyone goes for Snowdrop? I also got in touch with a couple of online US people who gave advice who suggested diamonds on Enchanted diamonds too but wasn't sure about their expertise etc.
 
I think Blue Nile is a good option for people in the U.K.- there's a big selection and all taxes are included. They haven't always been popular on here but if you read this thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/blue-nile-not-a-drop-shipper.231775/#post-4180455

It gives some good reasons why that may change.

I'm not sure where you are with the search now- if you've looked at 50 stones maybe you're getting a bit weary with it all? Are you willing to start again? The expertise on this forum is incredible, I agree!

Not everyone goes for A Cut Above stones. There are other branded cuts too and it is possible to find a well cut stone by sticking to GIA XXX and using these parameters:

table: 54-58
depth: 60-62.3
crown angle: 34-35.0
pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0)
 
There's no reason not to buy online from one of the recommended vendors - they all have great return policies, so you can view the stone at home in the various different lights you will wear it in, and also take it to local shops to compare side-by-side with other stones you are looking at, and if you don't like it (unlikely!) you can send it back at only the cost of the shipping (and potentially a small amount for insurance).

It sounds like your other half has been fed a line by a jeweller, the usual "only the crap stones are sold online" or "you will get ripped off". Denigration is a classic tactic by those wanting to discredit an opponent they fear are better than them.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy from the US-based vendors again. If your other half wants to see things with his own eyes, though, contact @Wink at High Performance Diamonds - he can arrange remote viewings by skype, can send videos, and may be able/willing to put you in touch with @Paul-Antwerp and the rest of the Crafted by Infinity team in Antwerp, only a short flight away from the UK, as you may be able to visit the CBI office itself.
 
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Hi guys, thank you for taking time to reply to this topic!

@OoohShiny , It's not that he's been put off. He just likes to see what he buys when spending that much money on. He's very old fashioned in a number of ways, goes with gut instinct rather than over thinking whereas I'm the opposite which balances us out somewhat. The thing with the vendor we've bought from is that we are able to see the stone at 50x magnification which gives us a lot of reassurance. DH likes a nice clean table so that puts a lot of stones out of scope. We'd been shown a few VS1s with black inclusions on the table and prefer twinning wisps or feathers to crystals. It would be easier if it was soley my decision that's for sure! We had a very short time to get a wedding organised so he wanted the diamond search to be done and dusted. He actually doesn't know that I'm still researching!! I fully appreciate where you are coming from though and thank you for the contact. Antwerp isn't far but being pregnant has meant not wanting to fly at all so not sure how well that will go down with DH.

@Snowdrop13 yes you've hit the nail on the head there. We've looked at a lot of stones. A LOT so I'm reluctant to start again but DH has suggested that if I'm unsure, I should do what I need to do. We do have a baby on the way so arguably there are other things I should be focused on!

The thing with those metrics is that Diamond B falls within that category:
E VS2 1.75 carat
GIA 1166600222 -
HCA score 1.6
Depth 62.2
Table 56
Crown Angle 35
Pavillion Angle 40.8
Size 7.75 7.71 4.81

I myself cannot see a difference in the fire and scintillation between the two stones. I can see a slight difference in brightness but Diamond B also was much flatter at the edges which DH didn't like.

I blind tested 2 strangers in the store. The shop assistant insisted that 2.2k extra on that stone was a waste of money (rather than pushing for me to upgrade!), as did the owner who would have charged me more for Diamond B because the inclusions did not make up for whatever additional magic the maths made up in the stone.
I also took videos and sent them to 3 friends who all chose diamond A blindly too which just shows how novice we all are I guess!

So I guess there are a few things in play here.
1) Am I now too pregnant or exhausted to keep looking? The existing ACA and BG H&A diamonds with the same carat, spec etc are over budget currently so I would end up with a smaller stone which I'm not sure I want tbh!! (yes I'm def impacted by carat here which is more obv than some of the other factors!)
2) Am I willing to spend the extra 2.2k on a diamond with table inclusions that is more expensive and I can't see the difference in because I'm aiming for the maths.
3) If I keep the existing stone will it lead to regret because I didn't do enough research despite 50+ stones?
4) HCA calculator said the following:

Light Return Very Good, Fire Very Good, Scintillation Good
Spread or diameter for weight Excellent
Total Visual Performance 3.0 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

Maybe Very good is good enough for me! It's been really tricky!!!
I think DH has had enough of me talking about the stone so thank you for providing a vent for me on this forum. I do really appreciate it :)
 
I'd say the market in the U.K. is much less sophisticated than in the US, it is great that your vendor is offering GIA stones. That is still quite rare here, in my experience.

Only you can decide if you've enough energy to keep on with the search- could you leave it for a bit, do some more research and choose a new stone down the line?

If you have to buy a ring from this vendor, do they have any sort of upgrade policy so you can exchange at some point?

Pricescope can be a bit dangerous- the fact is that diamonds will sparkle even if they are not top cut. My own engagement ring is a three stone (frowned on by some on here) made with non-certified diamonds (also frowned on!) but it sparkles like mad, gives great finger coverage and I love it. The site has influenced some of my more recent buying decisions though, and made me think more carefully about what I spend money on, and with which vendor.

My concern for you is that you are spending a LOT of money on your 1.7ct, you need to be totally comfortable with what you get. If you LOVE the F VS2, then keep it.
 
Have you considered buying an IdealScope and an ASETscope? They are very reasonably priced and you can then assess stones for yourself :)

re: Antwerp and flying, it's only a short trip on the Eurostar and then a few stops down the line from Brussels ;)
https://goo.gl/maps/9rxn2UpHkiB2

You could make a weekend of it - go to Brussels Friday night and have dinner on the train, visit CBI in Antwerp on the Saturday (assuming they'd be willing to open up shop to see you, of course!), then you'd have Sunday to stroll round Brussels and do some sightseeing before you hop on the train back :)


re: inclusions, I totally get wanting a stone to be 'mind clean' - I went VVS for that reason - but don't forget that the stone will only be 7mm or so and you'll be waving it around as you move your hands around. As long as it is eye clean from a distance you are happy with, a couple of inclusions shouldn't affect performance or your satisfaction.

You must buy with your heart, though - logic vs emotion is always a difficult argument, but the stone you pick has to sing to you or you will never love it.
 
Pricescope has been amazing - I mean is @Garry H (Cut Nut) the person who created HCA??!!?!? If it is then this place is really a community of great diamond minds!

@Snowdrop13 I feel a lot better knowing that you yourself own something that isn't super excellent cut that sparkles and that you love! Yes We've spent a lot of cash but also a lot of time rejecting stones (argh!)! As it's not my money it's very hard for me to veto his no-internet rule and buy something off an online vendor. I definitely have learnt a lot though!

@OoohShiny I have seen these stones through the Idealscope and H&A viewer. My response in store was "well, they're there!" I had no idea what I was looking at in terms of symmetry!!! I feel like a fool being told afterwards that they are not symmetrical. When I looked through the idealscope, the arrows were a greeny colour rather than any of the black colours you get online. In my mind I was like "what does green mean?" lol

Re Antwerp, I feel like the emotional expenditure might be a bit much for DH. I've dragged him to the diamond store 20+ times and feel I've lost some credibility after saying "yes, I'm sure this is the one" three times before coming back to look at again. If i did the same and we had to go back to Antwerp - I'm not sure how much longer our 7 day marriage would last!!

I really don't have the expertise or the eyesight to distinguish in person which doesn't help. Here's the H&A image I took home with me which I genuinely thought was good at the time!

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Cut is more important than color in a diamond's beauty. There will be times the better cut stone appears better looking. All stones look about the same in jewelry store lighting, but that is not the lighting environment most of us live and work in. The second stone is surely eyeclean from the highly magnified photo. Clouds usually are not visible to the eye in a VS2. But you can ask the vendor to verify that.

I have ideal cut rounds from Whiteflash, personally, but if your jeweler can source the stones you are showing us from Enchanted Diamonds, then I'd take the less expensive of #2 or #3. The face up arrows image doesn't look all that good in your last post.
 
Hi @diamondseeker2006, thank you vm for your input. Really appreciate any help here!

Are you suggesting I go to a G/H or choose the second diamond? There are only 2 diamonds (A is F VS2, B is E VS2)so I'm not sure which you are referring to when you suggest picking #2 and #3 on your post. The Arrows are form Diamond A (or1) for your reference. Below is for diamond B (or 2).

I looked at direct sunlight shaded daylight too to deal with the jewellery store lighting so I do think it's just that I'm a novice at diamond hunting.
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OK I emailed the jeweller. I'm going to try to return my stone. I think I've seen enough to convince me that I've made the wrong decision!!! I'm not sure how it would go down but it will feel less oppressive than trying to justify keeping the current one.

Thank you all for your advice, I do appreciate it. Not sure you're interested in the outcome but if you are - I'm happy to keep you posted.

You're all awesome for helping me out. Wish me luck!!
 
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