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HELP!!! Must pay for diamond tomorrow... need last advice.

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iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
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Feb 2, 2003
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22
Ok... here is my setting...


http://www.tacori.com/collections/koala/koala_e-f.html

the one on the right... i am customizing the band a little, plus its only going to go down half way.. but that doesnt matter...

the 2 diamonds choices are as follows:

1.20c
G VS2
Polish: VG
Symmetry: VG
Depth: 62.9%
Table: 56%
Fluor: N
Culet: N
6.76-6.81x4.27mm
GIA Cert

1.318
G VS2
Polish: VG
Symmetry: VG
Depth: 61.5%
Table: 58%
Flour: N
Culet: N
6.98-7.04x4.31mm
GIA Cert

They both have "Medium to slightly thick, faceted" on the paper I THINK. i dont remember if thats true and dont even know what this means... let me know if this is anything i should be concerned with.

Anyway... if any of you are still reading, please let me know if you have any concerns about anything above.. any thought on the diamonds including the price i should or should not be paying for them. if you see any weird dimensions that will make the diamond look bad please let me know... THANK YOU in advance.

yours truly
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
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31,003
A well cut 1.20c stone should have a diameter of around 6.90mm or so and 1.31 should be around 7-7.05mm or so. So the second stone looks a little more like the true ctw from the numbers you have posted, but you'd need more info like crown and pavilion angles to really make an educated decision.

You didn't mention pricing...are they well priced?

The med-slightly thick is the girdle and that's a good range. VG VG for symm and polish is pretty good.

Good luck!
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
Thank you for replying.

Its interesting that you say that because my friend was saying the opposite... he was saying the dimensions are so good that it actually looks like a 1.5c diamond.

The prices are as follows:
1.20c = $6,300
1.32c = $7,595

unfortunately i was not able to get the crown and pavilion angles


Let me know if the prices are good, and if there is anything i should be worried about regarding the dimensions being a little off.

Michael
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
I should also add that the weight of the diamonds are real.. i saw the scale and everything... so what does this now mean if the weight is as i stated and the dimensions are not what they are supposed to be.

Michael
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Compare prices using Pscope 'compare'....

The weight of the stones does weigh as specified. When I say the dimensions are off, I mean the 6.76-6.81x4.27mm
you posted for the first stone. A well cut 1.20c stone as noted should be more around 6.90mm x 4.15mm. Give or take a few tenths either way...for averages.

So what this means is that the top stone has a top diameter of 6.76-6.81mm when it really should have 6.90. So where is that extra carat weight going? To the pavilion. Where the depth is 4.27mm and it should be more around 4.15. That means the stone has extra carat weight in the bottom of the stone, where you can't see it...since you only see the top (diameter) of the stone. So the stone weighs the same, but you are not paying for weight you SEE...but rather weight you don't. Same with an overly thick girdle. Too thick of a girdle also adds weight to the stone, but you don't see that weight, its on the girdle..not the diameter or crown area.

The diameter of a 1.5c well cut stone should be around 7.45-7.50mm. If this stone you mentioned truly has a diameter of 6.80 (as an average), it defintely looks nothing close to how a 1.5c stone SHOULD look. Then again if you are shopping at a maul store (or brick and mortar or a chain), their 1.5c stones may be so badly cut that this 1.20c does look like a 1.5c..in which case the store is seriously ripping off some customers.

Anyway--the differences between what the stones are and should be seem better in the second stone, but I hope others chime in, esp experts in the field with their two cents to help you out as well!
If you can get crown and pav angles, it would be very beneficial.
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
ok.. i am becoming a little afraid now
so i'll wait a few more days before picking the diamond and hopefully (as you said) more experts will chime in and we'll get to the bottom of this.


thank you mara for your answers.


Michael
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Ohhh experts??

Scorp: try to get crown and pav angles by telling the jeweler you want a Sarin report run on the stones. In order to try to get the sale, make this really clear...see if they will accomodate to get your business. If they don't have a machine, they should know someone who does.

Then you can run the crown and pavilion angles through the HCA and get a smidgen of a better idea on how these stones may perform. Did you see them in person? What is your gut feel and why?

 

hoorray

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2003
Messages
2,798
I'm not an expert, but I agree with Mara. Ask the jeweler to give you a Sarin report on the stones so that you can really evaluate the cut. (The HCA model is a great start). If they are not willing to do so, it may mean they know the cuts are not ideal.

For this kind of purchase, you should have all the info you need to make the decision. There are lots of beautiful stones out there, and lots of people who will give you the info you need to make a great decision!

good luck!
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
ok.. i understand the point about paying for a certain carat weight that will not be visible... and i think thats actually fine.. because my girlfriend wants a bigger stone, but i am afraid that it will look too flashy and attract too much negative attention on the street and subways... so if I can claim a 1.32 but it actually looks a little smaller then I think both of our needs will be satisfied. the only question remains is how big of a chance is there that these "off" dimensions will have a negative effect on the brialliance and value of the diamond. i dont know if i'll be able to get those extra angle dimensions.. but i'll try. can anyone make an educated guess of how big of a problem these dimensions can be in a best/worst case scenerio.


thank you
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
I did see the stones and they look beautiful.. the 1.32 looks much better ofcourse... but to tell you the truth, if someone showed me the same thing and it was made of glass i'd probably wouldnt see a difference.... and my gut feeling is telling me that i should go to work to pay for this diamond.. not sit around chatting
so my personal preference doesnt mean i thing in this case.. i have to go by what you guys tell me
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
I should also mention that i am most likely getting the 1.32 carat stone.. the one that is pretty close to the specs that mara described. so considering that the difference is only .02.. should i still be worried?
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
Hi scorpion,

It pains me to see someone named "scorpion" taking a dive like this without the most basic of info (I have a personal friend here named "scorpion" also who is a great contributor to these forums).

Without proportions and crown/paviloin angles at the very least, you are playing russian roulette with your hard earned money. Are you a gambling man?

I demonstrate to clients daily how poor buying decisions are commonly made in jewelry store lighting and the "tricks" of the trade to help make certain stones appear better than others. The forums are frequented with posts asking why their diamond doesn't look the same outside as it did in the jewelry store etc. We don't want you to become one of em and now that you've found this forum you have no excuse.
At the very least get some angles. If you really like who you're doing business with insist that the diamond be appraised by someone WITH the instrumentation to at least be able to measure the proportions (and preferably some type of optical analysis). Only when you are satisfied, then drop the bucks. Check with the folks here after you've at least got the proportions and believe me ... people will be quick to give you an opinion.
But to get the slightest inkling of an semi-educated opinion you'll at least need a Sarin or MegaScope analysis.

Excellent appraisers who frequent here whose services you should consider are Rich Sherwood, Dave Atlas the RockDoc.

Peace,
Rhino
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
If you had to make a decision between the two stones with only the data given and a limited time frame, I would say go with stone #2...the 1.31c. The numbers look better to me...but then again I am not an expert nor in the industry...just a consumer who hangs around these forums WAY too much


Definitely get a second opinion as Rhino has suggested, esp if you are not able to get the crown and pav angles from a Sarin/Mscope report. An independent appraiser will help out for a fee (around $100-200) and give you more than you ever wanted to know about your stone!
try to find one locally if possible so that you don't have to part with the stone. 'Appraisers' is a link at the top of this page, check it out for your area.

Lastly, I have to say don't worry about the size being too flashy. If your GF wants it, and you are willing to give it to her, enjoy the size!
I have a 1.35c looking stone and I love it. I wish it was bigger!!
But it's plenty flashy and I love that because in other ways I am pretty simple (jeans and flip flops all summer long!!), so my ring is my fun piece of jewelry that isn't understated.

Also insurance helps with the fear that something will happen to the ring. We got my ring insured, and all is well. No worries about little things like life happening to it.

Best of luck!
Let us know what your decision ends up..and post pictures when you have your stone!
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
Thanks Rhino and Mara



I am going to call tomorrow morning and ask for crown and pavilion angles. I hope they have them. Is the only way to get those angles is do the Sarin Report? or is this information sometimes provided with other types of diamond documentation like its passport.

Mike
 

NagsHead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 2, 2003
Messages
34
Scorpion, if you can't get the crown/pavil angles or a Sarin, I would highly reccomend considering a different stone. There are many reputable dealers online who will give you ALL the info that you need to make an educated decision (Goodoldgold, Superbcert, NiceIce, just to name a few). They will overnight the stone to you, and have fabulous return policies if you are not 100% satisfied. Cut is the most important thing to consider, and without those numbers, you really don't know what you are getting. I am not a dealer, just a consumer who could not be happier that I was educated on this forum before we bought our stone (online by the way
)
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
oh wow.. that was surprisenly easy... i just asked for a sarin report and they said OK, do u want to pick it up or should we mail it
so i'll have it soon.. I'll post the info as soon as I get it.. thanks everyone.

Mike
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Good job Scorp!! Glad to hear your jeweler is willing to accomodate. Let us know the #'s!

Trichome
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
Ok here is the info:

2003-07-17 AGS 1.323 ct 1
diam 7.03mm(6.98-7.06)
depth 4.31mm 61.3%
crown 35.2' 14.9% 0
pavil 40.6' 42.7% 0
table 4.09mm 58% 1 off 0.4%
culet 0.6% ver. small 0 off 0.1%
girdle 1.0 thin - 2.6 sl. thick 1.7% 0

ok.. first of all.. i am not sure why but the size now is 1.323 when i saw with my own eyes that it was 1.318.. i guess the equipement is not too accurate.. even though i thought it really should be


also... as u can see, the dimensions are also a little different now.. is this a common thing that happens? is it ok that the sarin report shows numbers a little differently then whats on the diamond documentation?

i spoke to another dealer and he said that the price is ok.. but can be closer to $6500.. he also mentioned that this is not an ideal cut diamond (which i guess is why i cannot even enter all the data in cut-advisor) but he said that the diamond does not have to be ideal... he said dimensions are ok.. so its a good deal... and not to worry too much about ideal... this kinda goes against what this whole forum typically states... but i have to take his opinion into account because he is also an unbiased expert... he should be telling me bad things about the diamond so i would buy one from him.. but he told me that this diamond is ok.

anyway.. please let me know what you think...

waiting .....
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I don't know why you were having a problem entering the info into the HCA...I put it in and got back an excellent score!

1.2 EX TIC

EX fire
EX scintillation
EX brilliance
VG spread

Anything under 2.0 on the HCA is considered within the top 5% of diamonds...

Don't worry about minimal differences between the Sarin and the report..that is typical for the most part. I'd worry about HUGE differences but not minimal.

And BTW cut is the MOST IMPORTANT of the 4c's for the most part...it will dictate how your stone looks moreso than clarity and color IMO!

Good luck!
 

davidc

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
14
I plugged in the numbers into the HCA and got a 1.2 Excellent Rating (Ex-Ex-Ex-VG). Seems like a great stone!

-- David.
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
wow.. really? this is great news i guess...


but i still cannot get the hca to give me anything useful. it tells me that the depth % provided suggests that the girdle is overly thick.

what do i do?

i just entered 4 values from top to bottom:
61.3
58
14.9
42.7

can anyone help?
now i am having technical difficulties
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
the crown angle is 35.2
the pav angle is 40.6

you are using the %'s which are not as accurate and you are probably not changing the angle to % in the pulldown when you are doing it, hence the HCA won't work for you.

try the data above.

 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
ok.. this looks good... the score is actually 1.7... not .8 because the culet % must be entered.. right? i am not sure how davidc got the 1.2


well i guess i am calling and making it official because either way its below 2


if anyone has any other comments feel free to share..

and does anyone know how i can fix that culet?
can i just scratch it off with something?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
The culet is still considered none as long as its under around 1 so you are fine. That is not what is making the difference in the HCA scores.

If you use the %'s as opposed to the angles, you WILL get different results on the HCA. The reason is that the %'s are rounded averages. The angles are PRECISE. So the HCA will give you it's idea of what the %'s maybe are saying, but the angles should be used over the %'s always. The % is in the HCA because some EGL certs have the %'s on them..and while they are not as accurate as the angles, they can be used to get a general feel on the HCA.

The 1.2 is the real score.

Good luck!
 

iiscorpionii

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Messages
22
hmm.. gia cert stated the culet is N.. as in NONE right? .. so then can i pretend that my score is .8 ???? please!!


just called and gave the ok.. now just have to wait for tacori to make the ring. i'll post the pics as soon as i get it


thank you everyone!!
 
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