Help! I suspect I got duped by Michael hill

[Lovesparklesparle]

Before reset

Hi, first time poster. Sorry for long post but I'm at a loss.

Background: fiancé chose first engagement ring. H SI 0.7 centre diamond. Was gorgeous. But same design as a previous engagement.

Returned to Michael hill. I chose a ring/stone that day a very good EI1 0.8 carat centre stone graded by Gsi. Catalogued at $9200. Bought for $7500 Also lovely. They offered to customise it if I wanted so I did. I ordered it into a 6 prong setting in yellow gold. I was wary of not getting the same quality stone. He originally said it would be remade with a stone of similar specs, but I insisted I wanted this particular stone. He agreed and guarantees. And now I wait.

We waited an extra month for the ring to arrive. Unfortunately from the moment I received it I was very disappointed with the stone. It's performance and also I immediately noticed a large cloud inclusion near a prong which I didn't remember seeing.. It's the first thing I said, noticed, and I couldn't unsee it. Fiancé became very upset that I seemed unhappy especially after the first ring fail so I kept it to myself.

I became obsessed with how unsparkly the ring was and it's still bothering me 8 months on. I went back to the shop twice expressing my disappointment. I even found the work order that was placed with the matching certificate number. I was persuaded each time that it was the same diamond through various means. My mistake was not recording the certificate number the day I chose it.

The GSI certificate is suspicious- it has a pic of the ring I customised- after the time of purchase -not just the diamond and with a Michael hill branding. Is this normal? It seems they could have put any diamond on any certificate with same grading, and there's no way to tell otherwise.

I was originally told it would be made in Australia.
I called up and was told it was at customs!? Was then told that this designer lives in the USA and only he can make it there.

My suspicion is that it took so long to receive because they were sourcing another stone with an E grading. The catalogue said H, but the line I was sold was I was lucky to come across such a high quality stone and it was unusual.

My stone has faint/medium fluorescence. In all the jewellery shops it look murky and actually quite ugly. surely this isn't something I would not have noticed. In other lighting it's mostly eye clean except for the big cloud near the prong. It is cut deep at about 64%.

My stone looks smaller, appears to have poorer patterning, and the original ring shows a black carbon inclusion, which mine does not? No evidence of large cloud.

My question is do you think it possible these are the same stones? Have I been duped? Is it common practice for jewellers to destroy one ring to have a stone remade into another, or do they just make it with a comparable one?

Advice needed what to do before I confront him again. Should another certificate exist for the original ring I could cite? Can I demand to see sales history to see if the original ring I saw was actually sold? What is procedure with provenance of diamonds in Michael hill Australia??? And can I trace it.

Thank you everyone for reading.
First 4 pics in Michael hill- Other pics in other stores looking for wedders.













View attachment 499495

View attachment 499496

 

[Snowdrop13]

Could you show post the certificate? Although I'm not sure it will help as presumably you are way past any return period, unless you can prove you didn't get the stone you expected.

 

[bmfang]

Michael HIll has some nice settings, but for the prices they charge, you get sub-standard stones with questionable grading. You could go and get the stone appraised to see if any laser inscription on the stone you currently have matches up with what is on the GSI report.

 

[island21]

You should certainly do a Yelp review. It may get their attention faster if they have any interest in making you happy. But I suspect it will be an uphill battle and may not be worth your time. Some of the other reviews of this vendor are not positive.

 

[tyty333]

Does the store have a trade up policy? I hate to throw good money after bad but if they do that may be your way to get a new stone that you like.
Do your homework (first) then go in armed to pick out a new stone. Take all the info down when you buy the stone (report numbers, etc) so when
you get your ring back you'll know its the right stone. Just an option to consider if they do have a trade up policy.

I really like your setting and the wedding band with the marquise and round shapes in it.

*I just looked at their website and I didnt see anything about upgrades

 

[bmfang]

Does the store have a trade up policy? I hate to throw good money after bad but if they do that may be your way to get a new stone that you like.
Do your homework (first) then go in armed to pick out a new stone. Take all the info down when you buy the stone (report numbers, etc) so when
you get your ring back you'll know its the right stone. Just an option to consider if they do have a trade up policy.

I really like your setting and the wedding band with the marquise and round shapes in it.

*I just looked at their website and I didnt see anything about upgrades

tyty, I checked Product Review on Michael HIll and there is a specific question about this listed there. If we all thought that the James Allen upgrade policy of the new stone needing to be twice the cost of the old one was bad, Michael Hill's is worse: new ring needs to be three times the cost of the old ring.

Their US website is pretty non-committal about it advising that customers who want to upgrade should visit in-store:
http://www.michaelhill.com/your+promise+backed+by+ours.html?fdid=article

On Product Review (with a response from an officially verified MH account holder):
http://www.productreview.com.au/qa/michael-hill/2.html (look for a question dated 28 Oct 2016 from Jessica)

The relevant response is extracted from that Product Review page:

The lifetime trade-up policy provides you with the opportunity to upgrade your diamond ring at any time. You will receive full credit for the original purchase price, provided that it is simultaneously applied towards the purchase of another Michael Hill diamond ring with a full retail purchase price at least three times the value of the original purchase price. Trade-up purchases under this policy are not subject to discounts and must be made at the full retail price. To be eligible for the lifetime trade-up, the original ring must have been purchased under the diamond promise program and surrendered in undamaged condition, less reasonable wear and tear. ​

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Yes I should have acted sooner... do you think these are different stones?

I believe the certificate matches the stone I have, but it is a different stone to the one I chose to reset. How could I prove if they are different? Thanks

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

I was too emotional at the time of purchase, and saw how upset my partner was about everything... I wanted to suck it up and didn't want to hurt his feelings :/

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

The certificate is very basic- 3 dimensions, colour, clarity, treatment and says girdle is inscribed with Michael hill jeweller not a cert number.

I wouldn't trade up I'd get another if anything. I realise now much better deals for diamonds are available online, especially with resources like this, but that won't be for a long time unfortunately.

 

[tyty333]

tyty, I checked Product Review on Michael HIll and there is a specific question about this listed there. If we all thought that the James Allen upgrade policy of the new stone needing to be twice the cost of the old one was bad, Michael Hill's is worse: new ring needs to be three times the cost of the old ring.

OMG...bmfang...I'll never complain about 2x again! Really makes me appreciate our vendors that only require 1x.

 

[tyty333]

Well, have you consider just trying to sell it? You'll most likely take a loss but...

I have no idea if its the same stone or not and you've waited too long to really do anything about it....I'm sorry...this really stinks.

 

[bmfang]

The certificate is very basic- 3 dimensions, colour, clarity, treatment and says girdle is inscribed with Michael hill jeweller not a cert number.

I wouldn't trade up I'd get another if anything. I realise now much better deals for diamonds are available online, especially with resources like this, but that won't be for a long time unfortunately.

OP, that sounds like the business card like "certificates" that I see at Michael Hill stores here in Australia. If the cert says "treatment" that makes it even worse in my books if it doesn't state that it is untreated or a natural stone. Are you based over in the US or here in Australia where I am?

 

[Katesimone]

I work at a chain jewellers similar to Michae Hill in Australia and I don't think you'll have the same diamond, especially if it was made overseas. A massive chain like Michael Hill is really unlikely to take a diamond out a setting which they have ready to sell and take it out of stock for weeks/months just so it can be reset in a new ring for a customer (as they would then have to reset a new diamond in the old setting before they could resell it). Diamonds at these stores are almost always low quality and very expensive compared to online.

Unfortunately because of how much time has passed there's not really anything you can do (at least in regards to complaining to Michael Hill). You may just need to keep it as is for now and then try to find a diamond online to swap later?

Your engagement ring really is beautiful!

 

[tkyasx78]

I think your rings are beautiful. I hope they work with you so you are happy.

 

[bmfang]

My suspicion is that it took so long to receive because they were sourcing another stone with an E grading. The catalogue said H, but the line I was sold was I was lucky to come across such a high quality stone and it was unusual.

Sourcing different quality stones is easy these days if Michael Hill has a RapNet subscription. The diamond buyer inside the company would be able to easily search for E SI1 stones in that carat range and make the purchase on wholesale terms in order to fulfill the custom order. Having said that, if they guaranteed that they would use that 0.80ct E SI1 GSI graded stone that you said that you wanted and they didn't do so, that's just bad business on their part and the sales associate should be reprimanded if he/she did not follow through on that end of the bargain for you. Would thorougly recommend that you write a review on Product Review as they tend to respond there more so than on Yelp.

 

[MollyMalone]

* * * if they guaranteed that they would use that 0.80ct E SI1 GSI graded stone that you said that you wanted and they didn't do so, that's just bad business on their part and the sales associate should be reprimanded if he/she did not follow through on that end of the bargain for you. Would thorougly recommend that you write a review on Product Review as they tend to respond there more so than on Yelp.

Honestly, I think it would be poor form -- based on what we know (and don't know) at this point -- to post a negative review on Product Review or Yelp.

So let's back up the train... Lovessparkle, when you say "I even found the work order that was placed with the matching certificate number", do you mean your customer copy of the initiating order form has a certificate number on it that matches the diamond in the ring you have?

 

[bmfang]

Honestly, I think it would be poor form -- based on what we know (and don't know) at this point -- to post a negative review on Product Review or Yelp.

The OP has a right to post a review with her side of the story on Product Review. When you scan through the many reviews on Product Review, MH monitors feedback there actively with an aim to resolving customer complaints proactively. You also find reports by customers of a satisfactory resolution to their complaint on PR after a MH customer service rep makes contact with them (which is a good thing). Hence the reason why I'm suggesting the OP do so.

Where we are here on PS, we don't have such an option to help the OP achieve resolution of her complaint. We may give feedback to her on what has happened in the past but our advice as such may not carry any weight with MH.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

Thank you everyone for your insights

The work order form was the carbon copy paper notepad they fill out in the store for jobs. It said use this stone with the matching certificate number with the one I have now. Since the diamonds are not inscribed with said number, they could potentially assign that number to any stone with matching grading. I will have to go back and check the dates again.

Yes the certificate is the business card thing. Made for the diamond after the ring was made, with whichever stone they used. Clearly not a certificate that accompanies the diamond wherever it goes.

Furthermore, a few days after I supposedly purchased that particular stone, I returned to change the sizing of the ring to an m1/2. My ring was still in the display cabinet I didn't say anything though.

Am I within my rights to demand them to show me their sales/inventory records to see if they sold the original one to someone else? Or to see where my stone originated from?

I am in Australia. The guy gave me his adamant, personal garentee what he said would happen would. Is this just a sales person line...?

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

I'm pretty sure if I tried to sell the stone I would get... not much lol

 

[Katesimone]

If your ring was still in the window advertised for sale then they definitely used a different diamond (although it is also possible they had more than one of that particular ring).

You can ask for whatever you'd like, but they may not even be able to produce records if you're saying you bought it 8 months ago. It's really too late to do anything now; it's going to be way out of their returns period and the sales person you dealt with might not even still be with the company/store.

If you were unhappy with the ring from the start then you really needed to address it then (although I understand you didn't want to upset your fiancé). Because you've waited so long now you've really got no recourse with Michael Hill.

 

[bmfang]

Yes the certificate is the business card thing. Made for the diamond after the ring was made, with whichever stone they used. Clearly not a certificate that accompanies the diamond wherever it goes.

Does the "cert" have a GSI report number on it? If so, go to the GSI website and verify it to see if there is anymore information about the stone on it. The main thing I'd be looking for is an inclusion plot which you could then take to another lab here in Australia (either Gem Studies Laboratory, affiliated with the Gemmological Association of Australia or the DCLA lab) and get them to verify if your current stone has the same inclusions as per the plot. If not, then the cert is as useless as those IGI business card "gradings" of mounted stones.

Between the two main labs that MH use, I marginally trust ADGL more than GSI. Heck their sales staff have told me on more than one occasion that the GSI report is from GIA.

At least ADGL graded stones should come with an actual grading report which outlines the specs of the diamond along with an inclusion plot (though from my experience the only two Australian jewellery chains I know of that use ADGL as their grading lab are MH and Shiels; Salera's primarily use EGL USA and IGI and Wallace Bishop use GIA and EGL USA).

 

[WillyDiamond]

I would not deal with this store anymore, you came to the right place now, but too bad that you did not come to the forum before your purchased. PSers would have flagged for you a grading report from a substandard grader (GSI). Sorry for your woes, sounds like the only recourse if you want happiness on your finger is to sell the diamond and start over. You will get peanuts for it, but maybe worth it for peace of mind. Good luck.

 

[tanalasta]

Firstly. Looking at your photos, the first stone probably isn't eye clean. You can see inclusions - dark carbon spots - when you blow up the photo at 12 o'clock under the table and perhaps others at 11 and 3 o'clock

The second design. Has strong fluorescence. Which may explain the cloudiness. But can you see the inclusions you can see if you blow up the first photo with your current diamond.

This far down there is little you can do. You can complain to office of fair trade/commerce/consumer affairs about it getting what you are promised. Best outcome would be refund and return. But at what cost? They could also argue you swapped the diamond in the time. I'm not in any way alleging this. But the time frame isn't in your favour.

I'm sorry. Michael Hill has an alleged reputation similar to any other low end Australian jewellers of poor quality stones and sales people. When I visited Australia and Michael Hill I was aghast at their pricing and what they tried to pass off compared to
bgD or WF etc.

Having made the faux pas of returning your original ring, there's not much you can do without the risk of upsetting your fiancé more

 

[pearaffair]

I think it's lovely of you that you didn't want to upset your fiancé. Take a step back from the situation - you have the love, and a symbol of commitment. Focus on those things. I think focusing on the ring will not make you happy, given the options you have.

 

[motownmama]

The alternating shapes band looks really nice. Maybe appraise y9ur stone so you know what you've got and focus more on a pretty & sparkly wedding band.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

With and thanks all your help I am at going to persue MH. I am doing more research and wrote a "general" enquiry email to MH, will update with their response. I will try to talk to the store manager (he is the one who served me), and if I am right, continued lying to my face on three occasions. And I will ask the ACCC where I stand. I have told fiancé I'm looking into the matter and he took it well, bless him.

tanalasta im relieved you confirmed and identified those black inclusions, I was concerned it was my naive eye just seeing shadows. I am sure they are different stones. But the seemingly fabricated "documents" say it is the same. It's mind blowing how dodgy this all seems. GSI please make this business card "certificate" of the mounted ring, fill in blanks with the certificate number we tell you. I checked report number on GSI database and surprise, it's a picture of the MH printed logo business card certificate of the mounted ring that I have lol. That is all - no plot, no unique identifying anything.

Surely GSI must have had a record of this diamond/previous ring before it was mounted on another setting? Maybe I could request that.

Are there any jewellery retail workers who have done this to a customer? Any insights would be appreciated.

I asked when we chose the ring if there were any others to look at. There was not. Is it procedure to remove a piece from display once it has been purchased? Are there cases when it may not be? As mentioned mine remained on display.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Lovesparklesparle]

I know I shouldn't be so worried by this, but it's upsetting because it's entirely my fault.

 

[MollyMalone]

* * * I am sure they are different stones. But the seemingly fabricated "documents" say it is the same. It's mind blowing how dodgy this all seems. GSI please make this business card "certificate" of the mounted ring, fill in blanks with the certificate number we tell you. I checked report number on GSI database and surprise, it's a picture of the MH printed logo business card certificate of the mounted ring that I have lol. That is all - no plot, no unique identifying anything.
* * *
Is it procedure to remove a piece from display once it has been purchased? Are there cases when it may not be? As mentioned mine remained on display.
Thanks again everyone.

HI, Lovessparkle
I don't think the chain stores routinely pull a stone from a showcase ring to send it off to be mounted in a setting that's being specially ordered; my impression is (I've never ordered a chain store ring) that, unless the display model has a CZ center, they much prefer to sell the showcase rings "as is". But it's not outside the realm of possibility that in your case, the store manager was willing to do so in order to make the sale & that after "your" diamond was pulled from the display ring, they popped a CZ in it & returned the ring to the showcase.

What confounds matters is that your initiating order included a GSI certificate number:

* * * Lovessparkle, when you say "I even found the work order that was placed with the matching certificate number", do you mean your customer copy of the initiating order form has a certificate number on it that matches the diamond in the ring you have?

Thank you everyone for your insights

The work order form was the carbon copy paper notepad they fill out in the store for jobs. It said use this stone with the matching certificate number with the one I have now. Since the diamonds are not inscribed with said number, they could potentially assign that number to any stone with matching grading.

It would seem weird or dumb for the store manager to write down a random certificate number rather than the number corresponding to the ring stone you wanted; he'd have no way of knowing, let alone ensuring, that a yet-to-be-determined different stone would have the GSI report number of what he just wrote on the work order.

GIA's less expensive Diamond Dossier reports -- available for diamonds under 2 carats -- don't include plotting diagrams; instead, the report number is laser-engraved onto the diamond girdle:
https://www.gia.edu/gem-lab-service/diamond-grading
That also seems to be the MO which GIS and Michael Hill usually follow 'cause here are the GSI cards for some Michael Hill rings offered for sale by Australian owners on, e.g., Gumtree.


So perhaps there really is a number laser-engraved on your stone? Have you asked MH or another jeweler to examine it under a high-powered loupe (these numbers are usually too small to be legible under a 10x loupe) & show it to you? If the diamond has a different report number on it than the GSI card -- or no report number, that would suggest that you were given the card for the showcase ring but that a different stone was substituted.

I hope you soon find peace of mind.

 

[Snowdrop13]

I wish you luck with this. However, to me it appears that they are keeping the whole certificate thing deliberately vague so that you can't actually tell what you have! I'm not sure you'll get anywhere. Also, the stone you picked was E I1, is that correct? If so, it should have had eye visible inclusions too.

If it were me I'd find a way to live with the ring, buy a gorgeous band (I love the bottom one, really pretty) and focus my energies on the here and now, wedding, new life together etc.

Then I'd spend loads of time educating myself to be prepared for an upgrade at 5 years . But that's just me........

 

[tkyasx78]

I doubt they pulled a fast one on you. stones inclusions become more " visible" over time and once you see them you cant unsee them. even if you didnt notice them at the time of purchase.
please post a picture of your card that has the stats and comments section.

if the card has michael hill and the number on it your stone will also have that number inscribed on it

It would be very easy for the jeweler to entirely dismiss your concern if your stone is laser inscribed with the number on the card. many people will miss inclusions at time of purchase and later notice them and it bugs them.
personally though I would probably let this go. AND then upgrade later with a stone that you research here and get recommendations for knowing that it wont happen again.