Help Evaluate AVR/OEC

[ForteKitty]

Yes, my use of "nailhead" was technically wrong . But to me, visually, a bright under-table area with zero contrast is still a white/bright nailhead because that whole area looks flat. Doesn't matter if it's bright or dark. Flat is flat.

Disclaimer: I was not referring to the AVR. Only talking about under table areas with no contrast.

 

[yennyfire]

I feel badly. I was the one who said "nailhead", though if you notice, I did put it quotes because I knew it wasn't a nailhead in the classic sense, I was just trying to describe what didn't appeal to me. My apologies if I confused anyone or caused any disagreement.

 

[Laila619]

When I see AVR's being called nail heads and their ASET's being described as "pretty off" I saw the need to jump in and clarify Dreamer. People on these forums take consumer's words as gospel in many cases and not all the information is what I would consider on the level. Even in this thread actual nail heads are described as "beautifully cut". When I see those inaccurate descriptions being thrown around you can bet I'll jump in.

Agree with Rhino here. It's always good to clarify and get accurate info.

 

[ariel144]

Personally, I don't care for the "nailhead" around the cutlet, but that's just my opinion. I does seem to face up pretty white from the photo on Sarah's hand. Only you can decide if you like the stone or not. How much are they asking for it?

Sorry, I don't see any "nailhead" around the culet...nor do i see any thing that looks "flat" in the center. In that picture it is simply reflecting light from all the facets under the table which I don't see as a "bad" thing but a good thing. I would certainly believe that when the stone is moving the faceting under the table would "move" as well in reflecting light off the facets at differing angles.

Both stones look awesome to me and either one would be a great performer for someone who wanted a great stone for that budget. I would get the one that appeals to you the most...the first one is cheaper so that would be my pick too.

 

[mandasand]

mandasand, I am going to tell you that you cannot judge color in pictures. Jonathan has the best picture of color that I have ever seen in the 4 C's section of his site. K color is going to be relatively bright in a well cut stone, but it is going to have a more ivory/creamy appearance than say a G or H color which will face up whiter. If you have whiter stones in your setting, then I think you will notice the color. Some people love that in old cuts and some do not. Color is very, very personal. I think K color will do better in an antique setting, personally. Is there no way you can order one of these stones and then send it back to let your bf finish the ring? That way you could be sure if you like K color or if not, bump up to I-J.

Hi DS,
I am planning on getting an antique/antique replica setting. I'm not sure what the side stone color clarity will be. I don't think I'm going to get a halo. I originally fell in love with a gabriel halo but I was worried it looked to flashy AND my bf admitted he's not a big fan of halos (although if that's what I wanted he would get it for me).

I actually trust my BF to judge the color for me...he's a super smart and analytical guy. He knows what I like. He really wants to surprise me as best he can. We've made a good team...me looking and contacting vendors and he's been following up afterwards.

 

[GemFever]

I actually trust my BF to judge the color for me...he's a super smart and analytical guy. He knows what I like. He really wants to surprise me as best he can. We've made a good team...me looking and contacting vendors and he's been following up afterwards.

That does sound like a great team effort, and a very smart compromise between getting what you want and still keeping an element of surprise!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

mandasand, I am going to tell you that you cannot judge color in pictures. Jonathan has the best picture of color that I have ever seen in the 4 C's section of his site. K color is going to be relatively bright in a well cut stone, but it is going to have a more ivory/creamy appearance than say a G or H color which will face up whiter. If you have whiter stones in your setting, then I think you will notice the color. Some people love that in old cuts and some do not. Color is very, very personal. I think K color will do better in an antique setting, personally. Is there no way you can order one of these stones and then send it back to let your bf finish the ring? That way you could be sure if you like K color or if not, bump up to I-J.

Hi DS,
I am planning on getting an antique/antique replica setting. I'm not sure what the side stone color clarity will be. I don't think I'm going to get a halo. I originally fell in love with a gabriel halo but I was worried it looked to flashy AND my bf admitted he's not a big fan of halos (although if that's what I wanted he would get it for me).

I actually trust my BF to judge the color for me...he's a super smart and analytical guy. He knows what I like. He really wants to surprise me as best he can. We've made a good team...me looking and contacting vendors and he's been following up afterwards.

I totally agree with what gemfever just said! And I think an antique style setting will be wonderful with your AVR! Can't wait to see it! (I am sure you can't wait, too!)

 

[Rhino]

Greetings PS friends,

Just some comments.

What nailheads are described as "beautifully cut"? One of the 5 oec ASET you posted? I was trying to be nice, but they all looked kinda crappy (except the one directly under the AVR, and that one is just okay), and I didn't want to insult you in case you owned them.

I see dreamer posted the link and nope, the ASET's are of past OEC's I have photographed. I have a database of these along with video comparisons I'm saving for a more formal tutorial on OEC's.

And if you had read all 4 of my posts that clearly states that the photography is probably contributing to the ASET being "off", maybe you wouldn't have been so offended? I had hoped that you'd come in and say, "hey now, the camera was crooked so it wasn't sitting properly. Here is what it really looks like." But you didn't, and totally missed the point.

I know and you did clarify yourself forte. I sincerely do appreciate that. Looking at the image it looks like the diamond may be slightly off center albeit minor nuances in facet angles can also cause the blue/red threshold in ASET images.

When I see AVR's being called nail heads and their ASET's being described as "pretty off" I saw the need to jump in and clarify Dreamer. People on these forums take consumer's words as gospel in many cases and not all the information is what I would consider on the level. Even in this thread actual nail heads are described as "beautifully cut". When I see those inaccurate descriptions being thrown around you can bet I'll jump in.

I think such corrections and addendums make sense, certainly. Note that I myself corrected the nailhead comments in my posts, and also attempted to clarify the contrast issue that people may have been discussing.

Thanks and I would add that your comments on contrast were spot on. I appreciate your descriptions Dreamer. I would be curious if you thought the same after seeing them in person or even via HD video I've shot of these. That coupled with your experience, honesty and integrity are a valuable asset to this forum IMO. Perhaps for another thread or another time but the subject of contrast in OEC's is an interesting discussion because in modern round brilliant cuts you have no less than all 24 pavilion facets contributing to contrast under the table (8 mains +16 lower halves). Since the lower girdles are cut so short in OEC's the reflections under the table are solely those of the 8 mains. Of those 8 mains only 1 of 3 phenommena are going to occur. 1. Light reflection. 2. Head/body shadow or 3. results of leakage (or some odd concoction of 1 or 2 out of the 3 occurring at once). When creating AVR/AVC and I had to choose between the 3 I obviously designed it for light return as best as possible.

But your posts went further. Offering advice about your preference between two diamonds you have for sale, well that is something I would prefer happen on a personal level off PS : (e.g., "Both are awesome really and both face up beautifully. In brief though, what would make me lean towards either one ... [etc. etc]). ETA: I know Manda asked you questions directly, so obviously not everyone feels like I do about this type of things. Its just my opinion that vendors should not offer such opinions on PS. It may be construed as self-promotion by some. Also, indirectly commenting on the (poor) quality of stones offered by competing vendors, which is what I think you are referencing with your "beautifully cut" comment about nailheads, is not appropriate IMO.

Just my two cents!

It's one reason why I never participate on this forum anymore. Even if I am asked a question about my own product I always feel like I am walking on eggshells and breaking some rule. Don't worry though. You will not see me much again. I just came here to clarify.

Yenny! Don't feel bad. We all make mistakes. Look at the link Dreamer posted to and you'll see what a nail head looks like in photography albeit as I've said many times before ... you really can't judge diamond optics ultimately from a photograph. I can however capture the phenomena via video but don't be too hard on yourself. I'll admit, I did cringe though when you called an AVR a nailhead because I worked hard to ensure that adverse optics (like nailheads) would be avoided as much as humanly possible in the AVR.

In closing ... I think what you gals and guys do here for the consumer is priceless. You all give of yourselves generously and with a heart to help others. It is why I continue to support Pricescope. I wish I was able to be here to help and contribute as generously but anytime I comment on anything or offer my professional opinion, can't help but sound like self promotion in the ears of some so I just stay away and help via our other channels.

All the best,
Rhino

 

[LittleSparkle]

Greetings PS friends,
...In closing ... I think what you gals and guys do here for the consumer is priceless. You all give of yourselves generously and with a heart to help others. It is why I continue to support Pricescope. I wish I was able to be here to help and contribute as generously but anytime I comment on anything or offer my professional opinion, can't help but sound like self promotion in the ears of some so I just stay away and help via our other channels.

All the best,
Rhino

As always, Jon, professional and positive!

 

[Laila619]

It's one reason why I never participate on this forum anymore. Even if I am asked a question about my own product I always feel like I am walking on eggshells and breaking some rule. Don't worry though. You will not see me much again. I just came here to clarify.

Aww. This is a shame, your expertise is missed!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Greetings PS friends,
snip

When creating AVR/AVC and I had to choose between the 3 I obviously designed it for light return as best as possible.

snip
All the best,
Rhino

Hi jon!
Can you please clarify what you mean when you say you designed ( or invented) it- did you design it using diacalc, or other software?
Similar to what Karl did with Octavia?

 

[Rhino]

Hi Dave,

Over the course of the past 12 years David I have been working intimately with the following optical technologies and studying their strengths/weakness as compared to practical observation. FireScope/IdealScope/DiamXray, Isee2, BrillianceScope, ASET, AGS PGS, DiamCalc Ray Trace, MegaScope Ray Trace & H&A scopes as well as getting to know the intimate details of both GIA and AGS' cut grading systems. The culmination and invention of AVC and AVR is a result of working with all of these tools. Some more than others. Prototypes were cut and if they did not produce the *visual* optic I was after it was back to the drawing board.

Regards,
Rhino

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks for answering Jon.
My question is more of a practical nature.
Studying light paths is one aspect, as is familiarizing ones self with GIA and AGSL grading.
By studying and analyzing polished diamonds its possible to refine what you want to see, I agree.
However the hands on purchase of rough, and the cutting, polishing and briliandeering a diamond is entirely another aspect.
Ultimately, it comes down to the skill of the cutter buy the correct rough, and then to do the actual physical design and implementation ( cutting) to achieve the results you want, right?

The August Vintages are lovely diamonds, I agree- and applaud your role in their design and manufacture. I also truly enjoy working with Yoram on design.
But as dealers we're only able to say what we want, it's really the mind of the cutter that does the actual design work.
It seems to me that inventing an idea is different than actually inventing the diamond.

 

[Rhino]

Thanks for answering Jon.
My question is more of a practical nature.
Studying light paths is one aspect, as is familiarizing ones self with GIA and AGSL grading.
By studying and analyzing polished diamonds its possible to refine what you want to see, I agree.
However the hands on purchase of rough, and the cutting, polishing and briliandeering a diamond is entirely another aspect.
Ultimately, it comes down to the skill of the cutter buy the correct rough, and then to do the actual physical design and implementation ( cutting) to achieve the results you want, right?

The August Vintages are lovely diamonds, I agree- and applaud your role in their design and manufacture. I also truly enjoy working with Yoram on design.
But as dealers we're only able to say what we want, it's really the mind of the cutter that does the actual design work.
It seems to me that inventing an idea is different than actually inventing the diamond.

Unless the idea was a diamond to begin with. The diamond I wanted was in my mind long before I met Yoram Dave. Years in fact. Thankfully Karl introduced us and Yoram happens to be one of the most skilled cutters I know of. His work is impeccable and I am proud to work and be associated with him. If he was not able to cut what I had envisioned however I would have brought it to another who could. I'm glad I didn't have to because not only is he one of the finest cutters but I consider him a dear friend as well.

All the best,
Jonathan

 

[Rockdiamond]

Just as I'd thought about cutting Old Mine Brilliants to look more yellow for years- but I guess I feel that Yoram deserves the credit for actually creating ( inventing) and implementing the diamonds he cuts- in general.
But I'm glad to hear we all agree that the diamond ( OMB) already existed- no one involved in PriceScope "invented" the old mine brilliant.