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Help choosing between these two lab diamonds?

Discussion in 'Laboratory-Grown Diamonds /Man-Made Diamonds (MMD)' started by bluegreenviolet, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. bluegreenviolet
    Rough_Rock

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    by bluegreenviolet » Jul 22, 2019
    Hello all!

    I've narrowed my search down to these two stones that seem to fit the bill on paper (HCA score between 1-2, sitting at or near the intersection of GIA Excellent and AGS Ideal) and I am having a hard time making the final decision based on the eye test.

    Any insights would be appreciated - the live 360 view and diamond certifications are available on the links below!

    https://www.cleanorigin.com/diamonds/round-lab-created-diamond-57604/

    https://www.cleanorigin.com/diamonds/round-lab-created-diamond-57605/
     
    


    


  2. OoohShiny
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OoohShiny » Jul 23, 2019
    Good work on confirming the HCA scores :)

    The first one looks to be more 60/60 style, so slightly lower crown (although still within HCA recommendations) and a bit shallower for the weight, which gives more spread. I'm not sure if it will give a bit more white light than coloured fire - 60/60s are known to tend towards that but I think this one has a higher crown than most 60/60s, so it might well balance out nicely.

    Both have pavilion angles at 40.9, which is at the upper boundary of HCA recommendations. If you could get ASETscope images of each from the vendor, that would help confirm cut consistency across the stone and identify any areas of potential leakage - some of the pavilion facets may be steeper than others (because the grading report is rounded/averaged) so it would be useful to confirm if that was the case.

    To my eyes, and on this monitor... they have a fair bit of tint for a G? so it might be that they are perhaps an H or maybe even an I in GIA/AGS grading, but as long as you are aware of that and they are priced accordingly, you are buying from a position of awareness/knowledge, which is a good thing.

    It is also worth noting that they are CVD stones, and there has been some discussion on this forum over the past week or so about how some CVD stones might suffer from a lack of 'crispness' due to the layering process during growth of the stone. On that basis, you/the vendor/a qualified appraiser should check to see if this is an issue or not for these stones.

    May I check what the Returns policy is from this vendor? If you have a decent amount of time to inspect and return (at zero or very minimal cost) if you are not 100% happy, that is the best option!


    Don't forget to consider that MMD pricing may well come down, and perhaps even substantially, in the short/medium/longer term, so IMVHO(!), you should buy from a position of effectively writing off all monies spent as being unrecoverable in the future (whereas Mined diamonds do tend to be a 'store of value', albeit variable dependent on the stone, how quickly you might want to sell, and how big the secondhand market may be in the future).

    :)
     
  3. bluegreenviolet
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    by bluegreenviolet » Jul 23, 2019
    Thank you so much for the detailed reply! I was thinking I may not get a response in the man made diamond portion of this board so I was happy to see someone browsing here.

    I appreciate your insight on the pricing (re-sale value and price drops) and I don't see this diamond as an investment of any sort so I've made my peace with that portion the purchase.

    Appreciate the insights on the CVD process - I had not seen anything about that prior but have been unable to locate any stones that don't have CVD on their certificate so it may be a risk I have to take for now.

    Clean Origin claims to have a 100 day "easy" return policy so I should have options if whichever stone is chosen comes in lackluster (if I can even determine that with my rookie eyes).

    Your insights on the diamonds leave me feeling clueless again just as I thought I was starting to get some knowledge during this search - truly amazing how much depth and detail you can get into when analyzing these stones. I had never heard of the 60/60 and I wonder how that first diamond would fare considering it does have "ideal" angles like you said. If it was able to really shine with white light performance but also have some fire I think that could be nice too, potentially.

    I did notice the tint on the diamonds and I was hoping to stay at F or greater color to compensate for the potential "loose" grading associated with lab diamonds but after viewing the certificates for every F color diamond in my desired carat range (1.5ish) across multiple sites/vendors I found there is not a single one with ideal proportions (or even close!) so I've been left with very few choices.

    Any specific thoughts on the second stone linked? Your analysis on the first was so insightful I almost feel like I had no idea what I was looking at to begin with so I'm curious if you saw anything interesting with the second one as well.

    Any thoughts on eye cleanliness on these two?

    With all that being said I do still have a little less than a month to shop (that may be cutting it close) - do you think I should pass on these and keep on trucking? I've found the search to be fairly brutal as far as getting stones with ideal proportions that don't have massive black dots all over them but I don't want to rush either!

    Edit: After my daily search I was able to find one stone that I thought may be worth a look - this stone fits the bill on paper just like the others however it has an increased color rating and does not list CVD anywhere in the certificate. It does seem to have a rather large inclusion near the table though, not sure if it would be visible or not. Any thoughts on this new find?

    https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-diamonds-search/view_detail/8142800/
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  4. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Jul 24, 2019
    No worries! :))

    HPD/CBI have some excellent pictures of potential things to consider in terms of inclusions / performance if/when buying MMDs - do take a look!
    https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/extra/172/laboratory-grown-diamonds
    https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/extra/173

    They are of course a natural-only seller, but they are also keen on diamond buyer education so an informed choice can be made :)

    The Returns policy at Clean Origin sounds like it is very good and should give you enough time to assess any given stone in a range of lighting environments - make sure to save and read a copy of any terms and conditions thoroughly!

    Do they also have an Upgrades policy? It could be that you could purchase now and then swap to a Colourless stone in due course if/when they are coming to the market with better cuts.

    If the second stone has an HCA score under 2 then that is good - that said, the higher crown matched with the steeper end of the PS-recommended Pavilion Angle range might mean it has more potential for leakage, so if you are able to get ASETscope images of both, that will help confirm either way. It looks like it might have shorter Lower Girdle Facets, giving 'fatter arrows' and potentially more fire, but not by much compared to the first stone, I would say.

    VVS should be eye clean from all distances (even with potentially 'soft' grading noted) but the Returns period will let you confirm this if you are happy to order to check it/them out :) Clean Origin might be able to inspect the stones and let you know - it could be worth asking them.


    The BE stone looks good for a VS2 IMHO - inclusion under the upper facets, so not right in the table, means it should get lost in the sparkles, and it's not a dark colour from what I can see. It also looks quite a bit less tinted than the other two - but video settings and screen settings (and personal colour perception) all play a part, which mean evaluation in real life is always the best test. The smaller table should increase the opportunity for coloured fire from the upper facets and I would say the HCA score should come in under the magic 2.0 score.

    It might be a HPHT stone, hence the lack of comment on CVD, but I don't know if they test either way. It is somewhat more expensive than the other two options under consideration, though.

    Do check out the offerings on August Vintage Inc. and contact Jonathon (username Rhino on here) if you can't see what you are looking for. He has a Diamond Concierge service where he pulls in stones that might suit a potential buyer, which could work for you if you are specifically looking for certain specs of the 4Cs and SuperIdeal proportions, but there would of course be an additional charge for his time. It is worth asking, though, as he might be able to just pull some options off an inventory list for immediate consideration!
     
    


    


  5. BDA1971
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    by BDA1971 » Jul 25, 2019
     
  6. BDA1971
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    by BDA1971 » Jul 25, 2019
    Why buy now? The lab grown diamonds will flood the market... and when sold on the secondary market the true value will seen. Experts and dealers in the industry predict you'll be able to buy these diamonds for next to nothing in the future. It's the way the whole industry worldwide is heading.
     
  7. OoohShiny
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OoohShiny » Jul 25, 2019
    Are you asserting that 'the true value' of diamonds is the secondhand market price?

    On that basis, and given that Mined diamonds generally sell on the secondhand market between 10% to 80% of their retail value, it would seem that Mined diamonds are also 'flood[ing] the market' and incorrectly priced at the retail level, so potential purchasers should not purchase those either?
     
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  8. bluegreenviolet
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    by bluegreenviolet » Jul 25, 2019
    Thanks for the referral to Rhino and August Vintage! He was able to hook me up with a beautiful stone he already had on hand and had vetted personally and is also customizing a setting for me to fit the stone exactly.

    Pleasure to work with him and he really takes all the guess work out of the process for us rookies who really don't know what they're looking at in person - the numbers and paperwork can only get you so far on your own sadly.
     
  9. MelloYello8
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  10. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Jul 26, 2019
    Oooh, excellent news! You are in safe hands with Rhino - I am certain you will love it when it arrives :))

    Please do post some pics when it arrives if you are happy to do so!
     
    


    


  11. Sunshine812
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    by Sunshine812 » Aug 1, 2019
    Hi, did you stay with a MMD? Do you have a picture of new diamond? I’m searching and am all over the place. Thank you
     
  12. Sunshine812
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    by Sunshine812 » Aug 1, 2019
    I’m a newbie to all this and have been reading but not much of a science person so much of this is Greek to me. I tried following the Beyond4cs tables for certain cuts and now reading that those tables might not be best. Can I ask you a question?
     
  13. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Aug 1, 2019
    Hello :)

    What shapes are you considering?

    Modern Round Brilliants have a 'Pricescope-recommended' range of angles etc, but pretty much everything else needs to be considered and analysed on a case-by-case basis because there isn't a 'set range' of numbers for any other shapes!
     
  14. Sunshine812
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    by Sunshine812 » Aug 1, 2019
    Hi, thank you so much for answering back. I’m stuck on ovals, I changed to rounds but I’m back at Ovals. Say you had $10K to purchase an Oval, where do you start? Who can you trust? Natural vs lab vs mmd. Yikes so much to think about, so I thought why not ask an experienced diamond shopper their opinion... if not I understand... it’s a lot to take in. Thank you
     
  15. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Aug 1, 2019
    Well, there are many on here far, far wiser than me, so I would not class myself as an expert or experienced! :lol:

    Ovals are tricky to shop for. 'Classic' ovals often have a band of clearly defined facets across the middle but then 'crushed ice' elsewhere, the latter of which looks very 'leaky' on an ASETscope image (a tool designed to empirically assess from where the light being returned from the stone originated from in the surrounding environment, and how much leakage there is). They often suffer from 'bow tie' effect, where the central band goes dark all at the same time, which is what you want to avoid.

    Check out the Elyque Ovals on the August Vintage Inc. website - they are ovals cut to perform like Modern Round Brilliants, so they may be an excellent fusion of performance and also the shape that you prefer :) They have a different 'look' to a 'classic' oval and can face up slightly smaller for any given carat weight due to the need for the pavilion to have more material in it to create the correct angles within the stone, but they look amazing to me!

    Jonathon at AVInc (Rhino on here) also sells MMDs - I'm not sure if he's cutting the Elyque ovals in MMDs but if the Elyque piques your interest, definitely drop him a line to ask! If there's nothing in your budget/desired specifications at the moment, he might well be able to custom-cut you something :)

    Either way, I'm sure we can find you some ovals worth considering, of whatever style!


    Ooh, and to clarify, MMD is short for Man Made Diamonds, which is another name for LGD (Laboratory Grown Diamonds), so the terms are interchangeable - they are not two different things :) (Fortunately - there's enough to remember as it is! :lol:)
     
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  16. Sunshine812
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    by Sunshine812 » Aug 1, 2019
    Awesome, this is perfect! I so appreciate your insights. I’ll let you know
     
  17. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Aug 1, 2019
    No worries :)

    This is what the Elyque ovals look like:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxoMZR_jdeJ/
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BrBOBQxjHCT/

    Small but mighty! :)
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bwm_NsRHreH/


    And this is what a well-cut 'classic' oval should look like:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxQhn4uH9i5/

    A comparison pic:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BwwyyTLnD3j/


    EDIT:
    This is interesting - it looks like a new Oval cut?? An '8-mains' oval?? Could be worth asking @Rhino if the chunkier faceting appeals!
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bt9VLkOHiYs/

    EDIT:
    A special offer from a little while ago but 1.53ct G SI1 for under $10k :)
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BoNHSvFDgrq/
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  18. Sunshine812
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    by Sunshine812 » Aug 1, 2019
    Wow, love the 1.53, but it looked like that offer was weeks ago, i also liked the chunkier pic in your edit! I filled out a request form for him to contact me, so we will see. Thank you so much, if you see others let me know. Please. I don’t have Instagram. You made my day :mrgreen2:
     
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  19. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Aug 1, 2019
    Cool - Jonathon is a sound chap so you will be in safe hands!

    I hope he can find you something awesome for your budget! :))
     
  20. Sunshine812
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    by Sunshine812 » Aug 4, 2019

    Tell me what you think? The left one is a J, I bought it. I’m bummed I couldn’t find one closer to the 2ct. But I guess I was being unrealistic on what a 2 ct costs


     
  21. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Aug 5, 2019
    I know the angles and measurements won't all be precisely the same (because diamonds fight against being cut and therefore the cutters have to work around that) but the performance will be, so I am sure you will love the performance :))

    I hear you re: wishing for a larger size, but the performance is what really marks out a well-cut diamond from 'the average' - given the choice of a larger stone that is 'meh' or a smaller stone that is 'ooooh', I know what I would choose :)
     

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