Help! Choosing between 3 1.2c+ stones

[confuzzl3don3]

Hi guys, just wanted to get people's opinions on which one would be best value for a solitaire engagement ring.

1) GIA 627545342
Price $11,119 AUD
F
VS2
Faint fluorescence
3Ex
1.21c (6.98-7mm diameter)
HCA 1
notably has some crystals that seem to be more periphery of table

2) GIA 52736294545
Price $11758 AUD
E
VVS2
Faint fluorescence
3Ex
1.19c (6.73-76mm diameter)
HCA 2.6
only scattered pinpoints mainly on bottom, only downside is smallest dimensions

3) GIA 6272529296
Price $11900 AUD
D
SI1
No fluorescence
3Ex
1.3C (6.92-95mm diameter)
HCA 1.7
lot of centre crystals though and on the 10x magnification can see the dark crystal in lower right of table
would it be eye clean to the naked eye?


Images are in the attachments. Sorry don't have any pics for 1, 2 yet or any detailed analysis with ideoscopes, etc as this dealer doesn't do them.

 

[bmfang]

Hey there from another Aussie. Are you set on using this Aussie vendor or are you open to purchasing online from an overseas vendor?

I’m not liking any of those three stones. Given how GIA rounds the crown and pavilion angles for their reports, you have a very wide potential range spec wise.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

Hey there from another Aussie. Are you set on using this Aussie vendor or are you open to purchasing online from an overseas vendor?

I’m not liking any of those three stones. Given how GIA rounds the crown and pavilion angles for their reports, you have a very wide potential range spec wise.

Hey there, am definitely open to that idea. But I was looking through a lot of overseas vendors (blue nile, james ellen to name a few) and the price with added GST and then import fees, etc was more expensive. Any good places then? What in particular don't you like about them?

 

[bmfang]

My concern is with angle combo’s.

The last one potentially has the best combo set of the three that could fall within ideal specs, but a 34 degree GIA crown angle could be anywhere from 33.76 to 34.24 degrees and the 41 degree GIA pavilion angle could be anywhere between 40.91 to 41.09 degrees. There is not a lot of contrast patterning (arrows) in the pic of the third one which makes me concerned that the pavilion angles are at the steeper end of the range (and thus you may have leakage).

What that means is that I’m concerned that you won’t be getting the best light performance out of the stone (even though all three are GIA triple excellent’s, which covers a very wide range of stones).

#1 is likely to throw up more fire than brilliance given the shallower crown but if the crown is trending more towards being sub-33 degrees, your stone may look a little flat.

I will have to take some time at lunch to see if there is anything available on the main PS forum recommended vendors inventories that is around AUD10k in price (to allow for GST upon importation).

What are your preferred specs re: colour, clarity and carat?

Hope some other more experienced PS’ers can help out. @rockysalamander has been giving out super helpful advice over the last few months IMHO

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You need to post the information for each stone or at least give the links to the GIA reports. When I click on the files, it wants me to download them, which I prefer not to do. So you'll get more opinions if you post the specs on each stone: diameter, table, depth, crown angle, pavilion angle. Also, pictures of the stones would be helpful.

 

[bmfang]

I also note that you are searching up in the colourless range. Is there a specific cultural reason for this or are you open to something in the near colourless range (G-J) which could help you to hit desired carat weight.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

You need to post the information for each stone or at least give the links to the GIA reports. When I click on the files, it wants me to download them, which I prefer not to do. So you'll get more opinions if you post the specs on each stone: diameter, table, depth, crown angle, pavilion angle. Also, pictures of the stones would be helpful.

Uploaded them as images for viewing convenience

 

[confuzzl3don3]

My concern is with angle combo’s.

The last one potentially has the best combo set of the three that could fall within ideal specs, but a 34 degree GIA crown angle could be anywhere from 33.76 to 34.24 degrees and the 41 degree GIA pavilion angle could be anywhere between 40.91 to 41.09 degrees. There is not a lot of contrast patterning (arrows) in the pic of the third one which makes me concerned that the pavilion angles are at the steeper end of the range (and thus you may have leakage).

What that means is that I’m concerned that you won’t be getting the best light performance out of the stone (even though all three are GIA triple excellent’s, which covers a very wide range of stones).

#1 is likely to throw up more fire than brilliance given the shallower crown but if the crown is trending more towards being sub-33 degrees, your stone may look a little flat.

I will have to take some time at lunch to see if there is anything available on the main PS forum recommended vendors inventories that is around AUD10k in price (to allow for GST upon importation).

What are your preferred specs re: colour, clarity and carat?

Hope some other more experienced PS’ers can help out. @rockysalamander has been giving out super helpful advice over the last few months IMHO

Awesome thanks. The dealer is trying to get me to close the deal soon. I'm after probably a F colour up, clarity (absolutely eye clean is fine, ie. can't see inclusions with naked eye) so even going down to SI1 is more than fine provided eye clean, carat ideally 1.3-1.5c (more after table dimension size being big 7mm+ ideally). No fluorescence, 3EX cut of course.

Interesting, given the HCA I would have thought 1) gives the best dimensions.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

I also note that you are searching up in the colourless range. Is there a specific cultural reason for this or are you open to something in the near colourless range (G-J) which could help you to hit desired carat weight.

Always just wanted to be in that colourless D-F range more so to be able to see the difference if friends of hers want to compare diamonds (which always happens I imagine, especially when someone newly gets engaged).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

1) Okay, if your dealer is pressuring you to close the deal, that's a red flag. What are his terms? Do you have an unconditional return policy with no questions asked with full refund? If so, how many days?

2) There are MANY more diamonds to choose from besides these 3. Do NOT let yourself be limited to these three or this dealer.
You've got a VVS2, VS2, and SI1. I am going to suggest that if you want a great cut and high color, please maybe focus on VS1-VS2 for clarity. It's going to be hard to sort through SI1s because some are not eyeclean (but we might be able to find one with magnified images/video) and there's little point in paying for VVS. G color is absolutely fine unless you know for certain all her friends have D-F. A well cut G is going to look better than a poorly cut F anyway. And I can promise you one thing, they'll notice if her diamond is bigger than theirs more than they'll notice if hers is G color!

The EVVS is too deep and the HCA score is above 2.5 and without ASET images, we need to eliminate that one. The F VS2 has a really low crown angle and is out of the range I'd consider. The D SI one has numbers that would be in the realm of probability, but I just wouldn't combine a D with SI1, personally. I'd rather have an F-G VS.

But out of curiosity, can you tell us the prices of these three stones?
What is your max budget?
Can we post alternative stones that will be better than these and out of state with full return policies?

I reread and see that you are in Australia. We have members here who buy from the US for better selection. bmfang understands the import tax situation better than I do, and perhaps he can find some better stones or tell us the amount of your budget in US$.

(Oh, and incidentally, fluorescence isn't bad 99% of the time.)

 

[confuzzl3don3]

Unfortunately no refund policy (checked). I've included the price in the first post but the reason why it seems beneficial to deal with this vendor is that they're willing to offer me a further 10% discount on the diamond and further discount on the setting. So the E VVS2 is $10690 AUD. I have been looking extensively online and including just GST (not even shipping and import costs) similar diamonds are at least 1+k more.

I agree with your analysis about not neccesarily needing a VVS2 but unfortunately the downside is there selection probably isn't a big as say these large online vendors. I'd probably prefer a F, more because I think in her line of work a lot of people would have G-H and I just want her to feel special and have it being a better diamond when comparing with them. I was originally thinking of a 10-12k budget, but wondering if I should blow it out to 15k. I went with her to try a few diamonds more so to see the size, and style of things she'd like. A 1.5c already seems very big for her so that'd probably be my upper limit in size anyway. A 1.3c seemed to be a sweet spot but I understand too that the actual dimensions of the diamond are different to the weight. I guess I'd rather her and her friends/colleagues be like wow, rather than neccesarily caring about the fine details of looking at stuff under 10x magnification, etc.

 

[bmfang]

If no refund policy with the local vendor, I’d politely decline and keep looking. Especially if they are pressuring you to close the deal.

As for shipping costs, with vendors like JA and BN (or WF), shipping is already included. You only worry about some minor Customs importation imposts (not duty) and GST.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

If no refund policy with the local vendor, I’d politely decline and keep looking. Especially if they are pressuring you to close the deal.

As for shipping costs, with vendors like JA and BN (or WF), shipping is already included. You only worry about some minor Customs importation imposts (not duty) and GST.

Yeah, but like I said did have a look and the price difference I guess is the main thing. Can save upwards of 1-2k. So I guess if the price is right. I won't pull the trigger until I'm at happy, worst case the diamond is sold to someone else and I'll just keep looking.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

Also here are the images if the other 2. Hope the quality is ok. Not sure if it's the lighting but the vvs2 E looks really yellow. Makes the F shine in comparison, and apart from that crystal in the periphery of the table, the other inclusions look pretty minor for the F.

 

[bmfang]

Of the 1.19 and 1.21, the 1.21 looks better on those images.

Having said that, I’m still not sold on the 1.21 spec wise (issue is the CA being quite low, maybe it works when the rest of the stone is approaching 60/60).

Using up to USD8k for the budget (~AUD10.1k ex GST), there is this one which has solid specs angles wise (though it is still a 60/60)
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4206017
Only thing that bugs me is the clouds and crystals under the table.

Bumping up your budget to around USD10.8k (roughly AUD13.7k to allow for 10% GST on importation, so AUD15k maximum), I did find this over at WF:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839976.htm

Yes, the main grade setter is a big cloud and small crystal, but if Bryan and the WF team have vetted that it doesn’t affect transparency and light performance, this could be a winner. But all really depends if you wish to spend super ideal cut money on the stone or not.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

I somewhat feel like taking the 1.21 F VS2 given price, good dimensions and HCA 1. How noticeable do you think that dark crystal would be?

 

[confuzzl3don3]

Of the 1.19 and 1.21, the 1.21 looks better on those images.

Having said that, I’m still not sold on the 1.21 spec wise (issue is the CA being quite low, maybe it works when the rest of the stone is approaching 60/60).

Using up to USD8k for the budget (~AUD10.1k ex GST), there is this one which has solid specs angles wise (though it is still a 60/60)
https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-4206017
Only thing that bugs me is the clouds and crystals under the table.

Bumping up your budget to around USD10.8k (roughly AUD13.7k to allow for 10% GST on importation, so AUD15k maximum), I did find this over at WF:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3839976.htm

Yes, the main grade setter is a big cloud and small crystal, but if Bryan and the WF team have vetted that it doesn’t affect transparency and light performance, this could be a winner. But all really depends if you wish to spend super ideal cut money on the stone or not.

Hmm, but the HCA comes out as 1. Shouldn't that be ideal?

 

[bmfang]

The pic is probably taken at 10-20x magnification. The dark crystal likely to be viewable with a loupe. My guess after pinching the picture as much as I can on my mobile is that it will not be visible from a 30cm ruler’s viewing distance.

GIA grading reports round numbers a lot when it comes to crown angle and pavilion angle. A HCA under 2 means a stone is worth pursuing to see if everything else checks out before purchase. You do not use HCA to choose a stone for purchase. It is solely used to determine what stones are worth following up on.

 

[bmfang]

Further to above, stones with AGS reports are graded for light performance. That trumps HCA any day of the week.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

Ahh. Thanks for all the advice. I think given my budget this is probably a fairly value buy? I'm not going to ever get these AGS reports unfortunately. Is that another type of certification like gia?

 

[bmfang]

AGS reports are used by four/five (amongst others) of PS forum recommended vendors (Whiteflash, Brian Gavin Diamonds, Crafted By Infinity, Good Old Gold and Victor Canera). James Allen also have some AGS graded stones too. Here in Australia, those who have heard of AGS have likely purchased from one of those vendors I’ve mentioned above, or who are Pricescopers, or who are jewellers who may have more discerning tastes. AGS doesn’t have a widely known reputation here in Australia: we’re a market dominated by GIA, IGI, EGL USA and a host of smaller labs (some of which are ok, but most are like EGL USA, i.e. stay away).

It’s probably the preferred grading lab of most Pricescopers who are cut obsessed diamond fanatics (myself being one of them) over GIA who, as I have mentioned before, round critical information on their reports.

The 1.21 above isn’t one that would fit my criteria for purchasing but it might be the right stone for you and your SO.

One other thing to note: inventory has been slammed on sites like JA because of the Christmas/Hanukkah/festive season. We’re also heading into the Valentine’s Day season too so inventory levels might still be a little low as people purchase stones and jewellery if they are planning a proposal for Feb 14. Hence why you may not have found anything decent within your proposed budget online. If you aren’t planning on a Feb 14 proposal, maybe waiting a while might help so that more of us PS-ers can help in the hunt for a stone.

 

[confuzzl3don3]

Ahh I see. I guess I do want to propose in Feb so thats why. Here's a link to the 3d video of the d si1

 

[confuzzl3don3]

And the dealer seems to have backtracked and said I can put down a 500 dollar deposit for the F vs2 and if it comes and I'm not happy with it, can use that 500 towards another stone instead. So like store credit rather than a full refund as they're confident it'll be eye clean and good.

 

[tanalasta]

As a fellow Aussie I buy overseas. There are a number of Australian retailers that offer super ideal diamonds - Gary holloway who came up with the HCA is in Melbourne (google his store) ; a few drop shippers. Australian vendors in general, with the exception of Tiffany (and their pricing) are not good value for money. And even poorer for stone selection.

Do yourself a favour and just price up an overseas purchase plus GST

 

[tanalasta]

I will also add that Whiteflash will FEDEX to you I australia within a week! I’m a repeat customer. If you do go with WF let me know. I wouldn’t mind a referral bonus :p

Also, with Asian’s - sometimes it’s best just to ask or make sure you ascertain what your intended prioritises in a stone. Culturally they can be fussy. (From experience)

Which state are you in? The super ideal diamonds are really something. Looking at the rings in the stores on the street vs what we PS know is possible it’s almost a travesty so many Australians buy from the chain jewellers. You get what you pay for. From what you’ve said, consider buying overseas. The customer service is also phenomenal. I politely asked for a new calendar and promptly got sent two with a jewellery cleaning kit with a polite email thanking me for being a repeat customer. We lost a platinum earring backing - they sent us one complimentary including postage. Find that in Australia.

The best way to “wow” is to get one of those WF, CBI, Brian Gavin etc diamonds. It also takes the guessing out of the equation. And the return policy for some of those vendors is no nonsense (contact Whiteflash, they send you a FedEx label and have pick it up). I think from what you’re saying you will probably end up with a F, VS2.

Until you commit money or pen on paper you have no obligation to your current dealer. Don’t let him or her pressure you!

 

[bmfang]

And the dealer seems to have backtracked and said I can put down a 500 dollar deposit for the F vs2 and if it comes and I'm not happy with it, can use that 500 towards another stone instead. So like store credit rather than a full refund as they're confident it'll be eye clean and good.

I am still not sold on this. The dealer is getting the stone from virtual inventory but you will be effectively out of pocket by $500 once you put the deposit down and the stone arrives and looks horrible.

Which state are you in? If Victoria, go see Gary Holloway at Holloway Diamonds as you will get a stone from him that will likely outperform any of these three stones your current vendor has suggested to you. If elsewhere, @tanalasta and other Aussie members might be able to recommend some other independent jewellers they trust on diamond selection. Otherwise, my recommendation is still to go with an overseas vendor as the quality of the stone will be far better than what you can find locally in the vast majority of cases.

 

[tanalasta]

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3788899.htm

I’d buy this in a heartbeat. That’s what you want. And that’s what it will cost if it’s the best you want. You can ask the vendor to see if there is anything in expert selection or go down a colour or size or clarity. But if your budget stretches to 15k ... WF don’t negotiate on price. Only a customer loyalty discount.

 

[tanalasta]

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3925321.htm

Also this one. Email them and ask if they have any other pending suggestions. And for overseas purchases, use OFX ... don’t pay the horrendous bank counter transfer fees! I called my relationship manager to complain about the over the counter exchange rate and he saved me thousands so it’s do-able.

 

[bmfang]

I know you said that you don’t want fluorescence OP, but i’m going to throw this one out there for consideration:
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...1.320-f-si1-round-diamond-ags-bl-104095888001
1.32 F SI1 AGS graded 000, angles and specs are very complementary (T: 55.7%, D: 61.5%, CA: 34.5°, PA: 40.8°, LGF: 77%) and even though this is a BG Blue, you are getting exceptional cut quality, on par with his Signature Hearts & Arrows collection IMHO).

While local Aussie jewellers will tell you that fluorescence in a diamond is a bad thing, it really isn’t. You get a stone that is discounted, under conditions with UV exposure the stone can appear to be “whiter” (usually of benefit to lower coloured stones, but this can also work for stones in the “colourless” range as well) and because it is cheaper, you usually can hit your desired colour/clarity/carat characteristics.

Locally, your only real range with consistent super ideal cut quality is Hearts On Fire (but I and others refer to them as “Wallets On Fire” lightheartedly). You would be paying a lot more than WF or Brian Gavin charge for a HoF stone bought locally here in Australia (and they are usually not as good in the colour and clarity specs, seen too many listings at Brisbane HoF stockists that have split grades for colour and clarity).

While WF don’t negotiate on price, it’s been my experience that BGD do. I would see if you can do a live chat with Lesley to find out your options and what would be the best price they could offer you.

The stones @tanalasta has linked to are also stunning, though right at the very top of your price range.

 

[ringo865]

No return = no deal