Help! AGS 1.77ct is this a good buy?

[bcr83]

Hi all,

I have an option to grab the below at 15k USD. I am hoping to grab one before Christmas here in Aus.

How well does it seem to perform for the experts out there? Reasonable balance of size and sparkle??

I am not experienced enough to fully understand how well the stone performs.

Thanks in advance

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMTYz/z/oU8AAOSwFnFWCtnU/$_1.JPG?set_id=880000500F

 

[ADN]

Hi - can't read the certificate - also, do you have any images?
Is this stone on ebay? Please make sure you check out whoever you end up buying from...unfortunately there are a few dodgy ebay diamond sellers out there, and you don't want to get caught...especially if you're looking at getting it from overseas (assuming as you're looking to pay in USD it's overseas).
Make sure you've covered yourself for insurance during shipping & for duty/taxes/etc when it gets into the country.
For your budget of approx AUD20k you can get a pretty schmick 1.50ct+ stone locally and have the comfort of knowing it is what it is, and who's selling it to you - even if it is sourced from overseas for you, you'd still be dealing with a local vendor.

 

[flyingpig]

It is hard to see the report. Do you a better image??

This stone is a great performer (at least according to AGS). It has the best scores in light performance, symmetry, and polish.
However, it has a deduction in proportion factors. Therefore, the final grade for cut is 1, not 0.

The stone got a deduction in one of the following areas.
---------------------------------
Proportion Factors
– Girdle Thickness
– Culet Size
– Weight ratio or millimeter footprint versus
weight or ‘spread’
– Durability ( Crown Angles less than 30
degrees )
– Tilt ( at what point does the girdle reflect
under the table )
---------------------------------------

 

[bcr83]

Guys thank you so much for your time!! I'ts a huge purchase and I am really not sure what is the best value for the dollar. The 1.77 is slightly out of my budget now that I've worked all the conversions in costs to bring into Australia ..

Given that, I have taken the time and located a 1.51 G VS2 for 20k AUD with the following specs (\image supplied)

1.51 G VS2

Crown 34.5
Pavillion 40.8
Pav depth 43.0
Depth 61.6
Table 56
Girdle thin/ medium faceted 3%
culet none
Flu - faint

Alternatively I have 3 other choices which I am trying to decide between size & sparkle/cut potential.


http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=67577490 (nice face up size, not sure on severity of inclusions)

http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=66479123 (not sure if depth here affects light performance)

http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=67759229

Thanks for any help

 

[bcr83]

Ok so here are the updates....

1.71 G SI1.

to me this looks like leakage right? The grey area under the table?

Then there is the 1.51 G vs2 with ideal proportions

1.51 G VS2

Crown 34.5
Pavillion 40.8
Pav depth 43.0
Depth 61.6
Table 56
Girdle thin/ medium faceted 3%
culet none
Flu - faint

 

[solgen]

Yes the 1.71 has leakage under the table and I would exclude it. I actually didn't see a 1.71 in the reports listed, just 1.72 and 1.70 G SI1.

 

[bcr83]

Thanks Solgen,

I have excluded the 1.77 and I am at the point where I have become more realistic with what I can purchase and trying to maintain a level of quality..


I am torn between sacrificing cut quality for the slightly larger size of the 1.7's?? I have confidence in the 1.51 however not sure which 1.7 to cancel out.

I would imagine most girls wouldn't sit around discussing the grade of their diamonds, rather just looking for bling factor and size? Am I right?!


http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=67690268

http://www2.jogiadiamonds.com.au/images/certs/J8904210.jpg (1.7ct)

http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=66479123 (1.7ct)

Thanks for the help, hopefully making a decision tomorrow to then chase up the ASET images etc...

 

[solgen]

Thanks Solgen,

I have excluded the 1.77 and I am at the point where I have become more realistic with what I can purchase and trying to maintain a level of quality..


I am torn between sacrificing cut quality for the slightly larger size of the 1.7's?? I have confidence in the 1.51 however not sure which 1.7 to cancel out.

I would imagine most girls wouldn't sit around discussing the grade of their diamonds, rather just looking for bling factor and size? Am I right?!


http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=67690268

http://www2.jogiadiamonds.com.au/images/certs/J8904210.jpg (1.7ct)

http://www.diamondselections.com/GetCertificate.aspx?DiamondID=66479123 (1.7ct)

Thanks for the help, hopefully making a decision tomorrow to then chase up the ASET images etc...

Most people would focus on bling or size factor but they wouldn't understand the underlying structure or proportions that lead to those qualities.

Diamonds 1 and 3 have similar CA/PA proportions and are generally in a safer range. Star and LGF are different though and will contribute to a slightly different look. You may or may not notice much difference unless pointed out to you. Diamond #2 would have a bit more different of a look so that might be better to compare to #1.


If size is the biggest concern then I'd choose #1 and #3 to compare as their look should be pretty similar. Otherwise if you wanted to see how different proportions can lead to a different look then choose #1 and #2. But then you'd have to call in #3 if you like the look of #1 but have a question regarding size.

 

[bcr83]

Appreciate the help, thanks!

I am a research analyst in my industry which does not help the situation!!

Makes it particularly hard when I can't line up the two stones side by side and make a call, either way I will need to make a call and I do agree ADN that it's about what happens after the the proposal that counts. I am trying to maximise the impact though and give her something truly amazing.

Don't particularly want a halo setting, if I was getting a Halo I would easily decide on the 1.5ct.... Looking for a 6 claw knife edge or tapered band (~2.5mm) on an L finger to give context.

Realistically how easy would the casual observer notice that the 1.7 is larger than 1.5? I feel with only a 5-6% larger face up area that the increase in size may be hard to distinguish??

 

[Diamondbug]

Can you get photos/is/aset on any of these stones? Just going by numbers and to be on the very safe side, I would eliminate #2. I would go with #3 because of the safe CA/PA combo and size . It is slightly deep at 62.7 so faces up a tad small for its ct weight. But truly if you can find a nice eye clean SI1, you can go bigger!! Just stick with the PSer preferred/recommended numbers.

 

[ADN]

I am trying to maximise the impact though and give her something truly amazing.

I think at 1.50ct+ you'll do that no matter which you choose

[/quote]Don't particularly want a halo setting, if I was getting a Halo I would easily decide on the 1.5ct.... Looking for a 6 claw knife edge or tapered band (~2.5mm) on an L finger to give context.[/quote]

- For a design like this, if you're looking at a band width of just under 2.5mm, the band thickness is going to be about 1.5mm and the diamond/setting is likely to sit up around 6mm off the finger.
For context, most 'stock' rings (here in Aus) are made in size N or O --- a size L finger with a 1.50ct+ is going to be plenty of diamond.
Also, with 6 little claws, this will increase the spread of the overall piece.

[/quote]Realistically how easy would the casual observer notice that the 1.7 is larger than 1.5? I feel with only a 5-6% larger face up area that the increase in size may be hard to distinguish??[/quote]

- The 1.50ct is going to have a spread of approx 7.4mm compared to the 1.70ct at approx 7.6mm - - so unless they're sitting side-by-side, the casual observer isn't going to pick a 1.50ct from a 1.70ct

 

[bcr83]

Thanks so much for the input, I'm speaking to her GF now to seek out what she may prefer, however she does not currently have any diamond jewellery, except the Tennis bracelet she'll be getting for xmas ; )

Diamondbug, I will be looking to obtain Aset's on 1 and 3. Thanks for your feedback.

I came across ( I need to end this!!) another that looked good and is sold through a few vendors. attributes look ok however not sure inclusion along side is an issue. I am looking at 20x so I guess realistically it may be ok.

I will be visiting the vendor today or tomorrow and requesting ASET's

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=6202830040

http://www.jogiadiamonds.com.au/diamonds/showMovie.php?code=J8819576

 

[ADN]

I came across ( I need to end this!!) another that looked good and is sold through a few vendors. attributes look ok however not sure inclusion along side is an issue. I am looking at 20x so I guess realistically it may be ok.

I know this stone - - just put a claw over it and you'll never know it's there...other than the money in your pocket that you've saved

 

[Diamondbug]

I like the new 1.7 SI1. I would get an aset/is on that too. I think the clear inclusion will be eye clean. I like eye clean SI1 and SI2 because I can quickly check my stone after getting any work done on my rings and confirming that all is good... yep I am crazy but just knowing that I can check it with a loupe to calm my fears is a plus for me! BTW all this years none of the stones have ever been swap... but I am still paranoid !!

EDITED: Just wanted to add that the difference in size between #3 and #4 is negligible so I would pick the better of the two... unless you fall in love with #1 of course. But please come back and update us on ASETs/IS and your pick and of course lots of photos!!

 

[ADN]

I like the new 1.7 SI1. I would get an aset/is on that too. I think the clear inclusion will be eye clean. I like eye clean SI1 and SI2 because I can quickly check my stone after getting any work done on my rings and confirming that all is good... yep I am crazy but just knowing that I can check it with a loupe to calm my fears is a plus for me! BTW all this years none of the stones have ever been swap... but I am still paranoid !!

EDITED: Just wanted to add that the difference in size between #3 and #4 is negligible so I would pick the better of the two... unless you fall in love with #1 of course. But please come back and update us on ASETs/IS and your pick and of course lots of photos!!

Hey Diamondbug - along with looking at inclusions for confirmation, diamond buyers can have much more confidence nowadays as many cert'd stones are also laser inscribed on the girdle.

 

[Diamondbug]

Hey Diamondbug - along with looking at inclusions for confirmation, diamond buyers can have much more confidence nowadays as many cert'd stones are also laser inscribed on the girdle.

Thanks ADN, and yes those inscription makes me feel more comfortable about getting work done . The stone I purchased last year has an inscription but I find it easier to check the inclusion plot because for the life of me I can't make out those tiny numbers with a loupe or remember them in the first place !! Combination of bad eyes and bad memory

 

[bcr83]

Thanks DiamondBug and ADN,

I have attached the 1.5 ASET's.

I will request the new 1.7 today or tomorrow along with #3.

 

[bcr83]

this is the SI1 G 1.7

 

[ADN]

Hey Diamondbug - along with looking at inclusions for confirmation, diamond buyers can have much more confidence nowadays as many cert'd stones are also laser inscribed on the girdle.

Thanks ADN, and yes those inscription makes me feel more comfortable about getting work done . The stone I purchased last year has an inscription but I find it easier to check the inclusion plot because for the life of me I can't make out those tiny numbers with a loupe or remember them in the first place !! Combination of bad eyes and bad memory

Ha! and here I've been thinking there must be something wrong with every laser inscriber out there because the numbers are always fuzzy when I read them

 

[bcr83]

Thinking I'm going to grab the ideal cut 1.5?!

For the extra $3k it gives me +5% face up value....

How do the 1.5 ASET's ad Ideal scopes stack up? It is classed as an ideal cut ..

Thanks for the help!

 

[Diamondbug]

Did you see the 1.5 in person or can you speak to a gemologist for their opinion? Stone seems to have significant leakage under the table IMO in the aset and is but I am not sure how noticeable it is irl. So get eyes on it to confirm yea or nay. I am not an expert on H&A images but the H&A of the 1.7 SI1 looks great.I would follow up with that stone. Don't give up yet... this is an important expensive purchase and is worth due diligence to get the best your hard earn money can buy.....with balance on quality and size of course

 

[ADN]

Thinking I'm going to grab the ideal cut 1.5?!

For the extra $3k it gives me +5% face up value....

How do the 1.5 ASET's ad Ideal scopes stack up? It is classed as an ideal cut ..

Thanks for the help!

I'm not allowed to comment on the stones you're looking to purchase specifically - sorry...
However...I can comment on Diamondbugs comments...Diamondbug you make some very good points about the 1.70 SI1...

 

[bcr83]

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for sending through,

So 1.5 is now cancelled as it was ordered. I have sent the ASETS and ideal scope images to the place Im dealing with buy they haven't commented on it.

I can't really interpret these enough to understand whether that leakage n the 1.5 is a big deal or just a small imperfection in an otherwise good stone?

The photo of the stone looks, not sure how severe that leakage is and whether most people would back out for that reason?

Suppler is telling me that I must pay 10% in order for the stone to arrive where they do further tests however, they have said though that only if it doesn't match to it's GIA grading will they then send back at their expense. This is why I am being a bit more careful as I don't want to bring stones in and then have to pay to send them back.

You sound confident on the 1.7 SI1 - In comparison , could I order that stone for further evaluation or should I demand that light tests are completed prior?

Thank you again, big help.

 

[bcr83]

Just an update,

Advised that 1.7 is sold, I'm not too concerned as another will always show up/

However my supplier is telling me that they cannot obtain asets and ideal scopes of stones prior to bringing it in from overseas.

ADN, is this normal? I've explained that I'm not able to make informed decisions without seeing the stones performance qualities.

I would imagine overseas suppliers have these tools available and can do this?

Thanks

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Unfortunately the various issues you are experiencing are common drawbacks of buying from virtual inventories. Since he doesn't own it and hasn't even seen it, the merchant cannot make any representations beyond the information they are able to obtain from their supplier. Nor can they even guarantee delivery. The upside is that virtual offerings are often less expensive than in-stock diamonds that have been pre-vetted, imaged etc.

It sounds like you are patient and not too upset about stones that are unavailable. It is most frustrating when you find one that seems to tick all the boxes after methodically researching it, only to find out it is unavailable. If you stay the course you will probably find what you are looking for. Also factor into your decision any value added and assurance policies that your merchant may offer.

 

[bcr83]

Unfortunately the various issues you are experiencing are common drawbacks of buying from virtual inventories. Since he doesn't own it and hasn't even seen it, the merchant cannot make any representations beyond the information they are able to obtain from their supplier. Nor can they even guarantee delivery. The upside is that virtual offerings are often less expensive than in-stock diamonds that have been pre-vetted, imaged etc.

It sounds like you are patient and not too upset about stones that are unavailable. It is most frustrating when you find one that seems to tick all the boxes after methodically researching it, only to find out it is unavailable. If you stay the course you will probably find what you are looking for. Also factor into your decision any value added and assurance policies that your merchant may offer.

Hi Texas leaguer,

Yeah I think what is making it difficult is firstly the supplier is saying the asets(above) for the 1.5 may not actually be for that stone as the owner has said he has not supplied asets (apparently)

White flash also mentioned that the 1.7 had a knot in the pavilion which could potentially develop into a cavity and just to be aware of that.

Really all I'm asking for is to be supplied with imagery so I can share with you guys online however the suppliers immediate discredit anyone on the forum. I'm not too fussed on that, I'll let the images do the talking however I am considering to cease dealing with this trader if they are flat out telling me they won't supply (or even attempt to obtain) asets or ideal scope images..

I believe it takes out a lot of the "what if's" out of virtual inventory purchasing and should be something a serious and credible trader should work with.

I am open to anyone else's suggestions on this issue and ways to proceed.

Thank you for all the input it has been very valuable.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I think eventually buying from virtual inventories will become more user friendly. More manufacturers are starting to understand the value of producing performance images as the diamonds come off the production line. However, the point you make is a valid one - verifying the images of virtual diamonds actually match the stone and cert. There are a number of areas of uncertainty involved. A portion of our business is also virtual so we know the challenges very well. That is why we do a thorough gemological evaluation as well as our own imaging when we receive in a virtual diamond for a customer.

By the way, not to contradict one of my teammates here, but while possible it is highly unlikely that a knot will come out of the pavilion as that side of the diamond is not subject to any wear. If knots are going to pull out at all it is usually on the wheel that happens.

 

[JDDN]

I wouldn't assume over seas suppliers can or will provide performance images like ASET or IS. I think in the future as people become more educated about the importance of cut, performance images may be easier to obtain in virtual inventory.

Many here pay the small premium for in house stones to save the hassle of calling in a virtual stone getting performance images and then finding out the diamond isn't what they're after. WF, Brian Gavin Diamonds, High Performance diamonds, ED are a couple that come to mind that provide all these images up front for your shopping pleasure. For some it really is worth the small premium in my opinion to get a well performing stone the first time around.

 

[bcr83]

Thanks guys,

I am not too sure of the typical process of what the wholesalers can do so that's ok.

The actual 1.5 image looks good to my untrained eye, however the questionable ASETs don't look so great

Either way, I think I need to and deserve to know more before laying down 21k on a stone I have only a seen 1 jpeg of.

I think whiteflash was just being completely transparent about the inclusion - worst case scenario eg. Which is not a bad thing I guess....

I'll keep you posted on updates, I will be contacting another Australian supplier today to see what he can do.

 

[ADN]

Just an update,

Advised that 1.7 is sold, I'm not too concerned as another will always show up/

However my supplier is telling me that they cannot obtain asets and ideal scopes of stones prior to bringing it in from overseas.

ADN, is this normal? I've explained that I'm not able to make informed decisions without seeing the stones performance qualities.

I would imagine overseas suppliers have these tools available and can do this?

Thanks

Hey mate - you might want to double check this with whoever you've been dealing with? I'm pretty sure that stone is still on the market - as of 12 o'clock today anyway? But you're right - there are plenty of options out there.
Regarding aset scope /ideal scope images and the overseas suppliers ability to do these - -taking an aset/ideal scope image is easy, however if it's not your own stock, it can be a bit hit and miss depending on which suppliers the stones are coming from. Some of the guys i deal with do a million dollars/day in business so they may not be that interested in taking the time to provide a few images for a 'maybe' sale - - other smaller guys will usually go the extra and do these sorts of things - it really depends on which stone the customer likes and who has it / where it is.
Hope this helps