Hello! 8ct

[Dancing Fire]

A HPHT treated 6 carat-7 carat near flawless spec is around 100k (my budget).

Waste of money! . If you ever going to sell this stone in the future you would be very lucky if you can fetch $40k.

 

[Matilda]

Personally would use that awesome budget to get an incredible not enhanced diamond, maybe even pink diamond!

In any case there are a few options from a recommended vendor on PS for the enhanced diamond you are pursuing. Just a few ideas:

https://idjewelry.com/clarity-enhanced

these are huge:

https://idjewelry.com/round-ad4288.html

https://idjewelry.com/round-dmpp3737.html

https://idjewelry.com/round-ad7111.html

https://idjewelry.com/round-ad4375b.html

https://idjewelry.com/round-ad4375a.html

 

[rockysalamander]

You will find it near impossible to sell a treated diamond without a 50% loss or more. Even natural diamonds can lose a similar amount . Do any of the vendors ypu are looking at have an upgrade policy?

 

[rockysalamander]

I can't find a vendor that is known for HPHT. I did look for lab diamonds from reputable vendors, as these trade for 20% less than natural.

Here are a few that, at least, give you a reputable vendors.
https://www.brilliantearth.com/lab-diamonds-search/view_detail/6711209/ {this is a 60/60 style diamond and will need an ASET to evaluate performance; 100% upgrade policy, but I don't know if that applies to lab-diamonds}

https://www.augustvintageinc.net/collections/laboratory-grown-diamonds/products/cushion-4-41ct-d-vvs1-laboratory-grown-diamond-lg_m3d30901 {this is under your weight goal, but the spread here more than makes up for the lack of weight relative to a round; this will also sit lower on the finger and make it more wearable; You will have to inquire about an upgrade policy}

DiamondFoundry is reputable, but you'd need to get a custom cut. But, they have a very good trade-in policy of 100% of the value of the diamond toward an upgrade with them. That may be quite desirable.

D'Nea is also a known vendors. I don't see anything over 5 carats (http://d.neadiamonds.com/lab-created-diamonds/WC132) , but you can contact them. You will have to inquire about an upgrade policy.

I know less about this vendor than the ones above. But, they have a large pear (http://www.hphtdiamonds.com/diamonds/8-55-carat-d-color-vvs1-clarity-hpht-diamond-gia-certified) that looks to meet your size and budget goals, though impossible to judge the cut without video.

If you want to discuss lab created diamonds, you could move this thread over to the appropriate board.

 

[8ctDream]

Thank you all for your comments and help. I take any and all criticisms well and appreciate the honesty and openness regarding my path in this interesting stone business

I recently spent some time w/ a dealer who does specialize in HPHT treated diamonds. I personally couldn't tell any difference with my naked eye, nor a 10x loop. It looks phenomenal in every sense. With that being said....I've narrowed down to a 6-6.5 carat stone maximum if I do commit to HPHT treated stones. Natural stones (NOT treated) with D-F, Ideal, VVS1/2 in the 5 carat range produced pricing in excess of 500k -900k nearly every time. I guess I am still confused as to why there is so much discrepancy in the market from everything I've read from GIA....

IE:

TO the average consumer and even with a 10x loop - HPHT is identical to a natural untreated diamond. It is a permanent process. It mostly enhances color (turning those icky brown stones to white). Significantly cheaper due to the fact that most of those parcels of stones were probably traded at such low price points that the treatment process generated enormous margins for the dealers. If 99% of the world cannot see a difference even after spending weeks with a jeweler and a loop - Why is there such a price difference? Simply because it's man made acceleration to the diamond? IE: HPHT only fast fwd's the natural process of the stone to a degree that it will bring the color up to it's maximum eventual potential? OR am I looking at this completely incorrectly.

Appreciate your responses very much.

Thanks

 

[tkyasx78]

JMHO,
A natural unenhanced diamond is the way to go if you are going to be spending more than 5K or if your are getting an ering. If finances are an issue moissanties or lab diamonds or treated diamonds are fine to help cut cost, but as some point I would want to upgrade to a real unenhanced diamond.

While a diamond may be a " real" ( it will test as carbon and not a cz or moissanite etc ) diamond whether it is made in a lab or clarity enhanced or treated for color in some way I would only get a natural un-enhanced stone for an ering.
This is just me for personal preference.

I have had diamonds that were enhanced and I have sent diamonds and sent them in and had them enhanced!( used in pendants and earrings and RHR etc ) BUT my ering, I like knowing is a real , untreated diamond. Personally I would always look at the diamond and know it wasn't formed naturally and it would be the first thing I thought of if someone asked if it was real, even if it was chemically a diamond. When it comes to an ering it would bug me to have a stone that has been tweaked with by humans ..... I have learned the hard way from experience!

 

[Lookinagain]

for me, perhaps being honest to a fault, the question would be how will your GF feel when someone looks at her huge diamond ring and says "is that real"? I would feel compelled to says, "yes, it is real, but treated". If she is okay with making a response like that, or is okay not feeling compelled to add the "but" to her answer, and, you are okay knowing that you are spending 100k for something that most looking for a diamond in that price range wouldn't consider, then I say go for it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

for me, perhaps being honest to a fault, the question would be how will your GF feel when someone looks at her huge diamond ring and says "is that real"? I would feel compelled to says, "yes, it is real, but treated".

I asked a lady the same Q about her breast. ..."is that real" ? . Her reply was...Yes, but enhanced!.

 

[prs]

Is anyone able to post a copy of a GIA cert for an HPHT Diamond? It would be interesting to see what they have to say about this treatment.

 

[Dmndsr4evr11]

@8ctDream - I’m fairly new at PS but you have a lot of experts who are giving you priceless advice. You can definitely get a phenomenal, natural, unenhanced diamond with your large budget with the help of the countless experts here. There are so many beautiful natural options. If I may be frank, is it important for you and your gf to have people think that you actually spent $500k plus (that’s what you quoted for the specs you want for a natural, unenhanced) diamond that’s why you’re gearing towards an enhanced one for lesser money? My question is not meant to offend but just to help us understand. To each his own and it is your money. If your gf will be happy with an enhanced diamond then that’s all that matters. Best of luck with your search. Thank you.

 

[Matilda]

I would just make sure that you are also aware of potential negatives with HPHT diamonds. Your dealer is right that visually there may not be a difference, however it is possible that in terms of sustainability of the diamond there may be a difference. I think it important to gather ALL information possible about HPHT diamonds before investing such a sum of money into one. It may very well be that HPHT diamonds do NOT have any "cons", that there is no catch, regardless you need to know prior to going forward. The information you gather should preferably come form a source that is NOT biased, so probably not the HPHT dealer. I am interested in following your search and learning.

 

[kmoro]

Just to add one more thought to the mix ... she will only be the envy of her friends if they would love to wear the same thing.

 

[SimoneDi]

I just started more reading about HTHP diamonds after this thread was created and from anything that I have learned, I would never want to spend a penny, let alone a large sum of money on a HTHP treated diamond.

Based on what I read, the stones can show a tint of color from the profile, so you are not getting a “colorless” diamond and the stones can become magnetic

The resale value is slim to none, imo. I remember someone on DB a while back selling a 3ct HTHP stone for about $1k.

Here is a beautiful natural, large pear with slightly lower than desired specs but within the desired budget: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-de...DiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=true

Or you can spend more and get an actual D color: https://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/l...ed/5.01-carat-d-color-vs2-clarity-sku-6014865
https://www.fourmine.com/diamonds/index/diamonddetail/id/180691-72

Place it in an exquisite halo, or even a three stone halo and you will have the huge look that you desire: https://www.victorcanera.com/rings/engagement/pear-shape-triple-halo-trilogy

 

[Matilda]

Thanks for the information! The resell value is eye opening!! I assumed a big loss but not such a loss. I hope this information is given to prospective buyers of hpht diamonds.

 

[tkyasx78]

That james allen one looks beautiful @SimoneDi !!!
I too wouldn't be able to spend any serious money on one because when I would look at the stone, I would know it is a brown diamond which are very inexpensive. ( almost all come from the brown ones but I think some are gray when they start and are then treated.) I was offered one when I looked to buy my last diamond and it was much cheaper, but gia certified or not it, I knew it was a treated brown stone. I would definitely get some for earrings though if the price was right! same with lab diamonds... still waiting to get that 800$ one carat round so I can make some amazing earrings!

 

[whitewave]

Have you seen or tried on an 8 carat on your finger?

I personally find they look ridiculous— like. A bowling ball on a pedestal. But that is me and not the woman who will be wearing it,

Have you thought of going down in size on the stone and adding a fabulous diamond eterrnity ring that she can wear together or alone when the stone isn’t appropriate for wherever you are going.

See Melania for instance.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Thank you all for your comments and help. I take any and all criticisms well and appreciate the honesty and openness regarding my path in this interesting stone business

I recently spent some time w/ a dealer who does specialize in HPHT treated diamonds. I personally couldn't tell any difference with my naked eye, nor a 10x loop. It looks phenomenal in every sense. With that being said....I've narrowed down to a 6-6.5 carat stone maximum if I do commit to HPHT treated stones. Natural stones (NOT treated) with D-F, Ideal, VVS1/2 in the 5 carat range produced pricing in excess of 500k -900k nearly every time. I guess I am still confused as to why there is so much discrepancy in the market from everything I've read from GIA....

IE:

TO the average consumer and even with a 10x loop - HPHT is identical to a natural untreated diamond. It is a permanent process. It mostly enhances color (turning those icky brown stones to white). Significantly cheaper due to the fact that most of those parcels of stones were probably traded at such low price points that the treatment process generated enormous margins for the dealers. If 99% of the world cannot see a difference even after spending weeks with a jeweler and a loop - Why is there such a price difference? Simply because it's man made acceleration to the diamond? IE: HPHT only fast fwd's the natural process of the stone to a degree that it will bring the color up to it's maximum eventual potential? OR am I looking at this completely incorrectly.

Appreciate your responses very much.

Thanks

@8ctDream ,
My company deals exclusively in natural untreated diamonds, so I clearly have a built-in bias in this discussion. But the issue here is not how much a treated stone looks like a natural diamond. The issues here involve provenance, rarity, and value.

Sellers of treated, simulated and synthetic stones point to appearance and price as selling points for their product. And those factors (irrespective of the others) are compelling to some buyers, even educated buyers who consider ALL factors. Sellers of these products contend that they are just finishing a process that nature didn't complete, or that they replicate the same conditions of nature, just in a laboratory. They want to be able to call their product things like 'cultured' to blur the line in the consumer's mind about the actual nature of the product. But the overall value proposition of natural diamonds is entirely unique.

A synthetic or a treated stone does not have the same provenance or rarity as one that naturally comes from the earth in a desirable color and clarity. And the difference in stored value is night and day. As synthetics and treatments evolve they become ever cheaper. Within a relatively short time synthetic diamonds will likely be as cheap as synthetic rubies and sapphires, for which there is literally no second hand market. So, while the current price differential between an HPHT diamond and a natural diamond of equivalent appearance seems quite attractive, a buyer needs to be aware that the apparent 'bargain' will be shortlived. It is likely to look like a major over-pay in the not too distant future!

None of these downsides may be of concern to you. But if you have any qualms about the financial implications or the symbolic/emotional ones that other posters have touched on, it would be wise to think carefully about going down that road.

 

[partgypsy]

The biggest downside, is u get that treated diamond, she is initially happy with it, and down the road realizes she'd rather have a completely natural diamond. You are now out 100k because of the close to worthless resale value. That's why people say the stone needs to be not just eye clean, but mind clean.

 

[8ctDream]

Thanks Bryan - for your comments and insight. I fully understand the rarity components of earth made stones that have been mined and cut polished without any treatment like HPHT. I personally don't have any issues with my lady wearing a large stone nor do I care about any side comments about if it looks ridiculous or not. It is highly personal and as we go through this process, I am open to any and all options. 5 carat would be my bottom in terms of carat size. Spec is important to be an D-F w/ phenomenal cut quality and proportions of this pear. While I am absolutely NOT looking at this stone as an investment piece in any capacity, I def hear the concerns regarding the secondary market and value contained in something that has been altered. I also suspect as we advance over the next 5 years with additional diamond treatment and growing ability, that these will drastically go down in held asset value. My reasoning for my emotional detachment from any value - is due to the fact that I am not planning on selling the diamond or reselling the diamond. If the diamond is identical to what we want and it happens to be HPHT and will stand the test of time (permanent and will not have issues in 40 years), then I seemingly would be happy!? (which btw I have never heard or seen any "magnetic" issues with HPHT) and I have seen multiple GIA certs that look fantastic with the exception that it does state "Treated Stone". Only upon writing to GIA, can one get a letter stating that the particular GIA graded stone was HPHT

I very much appreciate all of you taking the time to post links to natural stones etc. The James allen 5 carat is phenomenal! What would a stone like this cost if I was able to source directly from a wholesaler or similar?

 

[8ctDream]

The biggest downside, is u get that treated diamond, she is initially happy with it, and down the road realizes she'd rather have a completely natural diamond. You are now out 100k because of the close to worthless resale value. That's why people say the stone needs to be not just eye clean, but mind clean.

**Note taken.

 

[lovedogs]

I am not someone who has issues with "mind clean", and I hear what the OP is saying about savings. However, if I were him, I would be focusing on the best possible cut stone. Do HPHT stones come with ideal proportions? My fear is that they don't, so OP will get a worse cut AND a treated stone. I would get a lab stone or moissy before spending so much on an HPHT. If I were trying to maximize size and didn't care about an entirely natural Stone, I'd go lab grown or ideal cut moissy every day of the week and save like 75k to take an awesome vacation and spend more $$ on other bling haha.

 

[SimoneDi]

The James allen 5 carat is phenomenal! What would a stone like this cost if I was able to source directly from a wholesaler or similar?

OP, I am not sure if you will be able to source this/similar stone from a “wholesaler” as most of them do not work directly with consumers.

Nonetheless, if you do like the stone, I would reach out to IDJ in NYC who have been known to provide attractive pricing on virtual inventory stones. They can likely call in the stone for, take images, assess it, etc.

Happy that you are considering a natural stone

 

[8ctDream]

Thanks Simone! Appreciate the help. HPHT spec'd stones are attractive because of the price. We spent time at Harry Winston and Graff both in Hong Kong and in Taiwan, and had wonderful experiences there while walking out with brochures ha! I am open to considering any and all stones. I can understand the psychological barriers and resistance to anything that has been modified from it's natural state. This is logical to me, but the other side of my brain always begs to ask further questions if I personally cannot tell the difference or my lady. Still deep in research and thought. I am grateful for all of your time!

 

[tkyasx78]

I am glad you are considering a natural stone. A lab diamond “looks” the same , so will a clarity or color enhanced stone, as do well made Moissanite—- they are all much cheaper though and just because they look the same at first glance it won’t ever make them the same. They are cheap for a reason and it is becuase they are not the same.

Her friends and family will want to see the ring and some/many will want to look at the certificate to see the details /inclusion plots that show the details of the stone.

Having a diamond with a certificate that shows a clean report that it is a real natural untreated diamond makes it easier so she won’t be even a little embarrassed by showing the paperwork.

Kid you not, a few months back I had a jeweler I was visiting ask to see my ring, the jeweler not only louped my ring but wrote the GIA number down and looked it up in front of me. While I thought he was odd and border line rude, I realized, it was more likely he doesn’t see many “ larger” natural untreated diamonds as most jewelers overwhelmingly sell stones smaller than mine in size in this area. He was probably just genuinely curious. When you have a larger diamond people will ask. It comes with the territory.

Having a diamond that does not have to have an asterisk next to the “is it real” question is usually preferred. With a substantial budget, it is good to make sure it is on a stone you will be able to admire from every angle.

 

[SimoneDi]

@8ctDream I can understand where you are coming from. I, myself, before I started learning more about diamonds and joined this forum had a completely different view on what was important in a stone and how “value” was to be determined. At the time, I also made purchases which I would not make at present time.

You found this forum which is obviously frequented by diamond lovers. We can be harsh in our expressions sometimes, but ultimately we all look out for the new diamond buyers and would hate for you to invest such a large chunk of money in something that will be completely illiquid or that is likely to improve/have retail value fluctuations, even if those concerns arent necessarily factors in your decision making at present time. For me, it goes back to “value” or lack thereof, but how you and I value value might be different.

Whatever you decide to do, my advice is to please take your time with your decision. Perhaps call IDJ about the stone and see where that can go. I love big rocks and I am excited for you and your SO and again strongly encourage you to take your time and think some “what if” scenarios before you pull the trigger on an immovable item

ETA: I know it’s not the same shape, but just wanted to post this for illustration purposes - 5ct solitaire vs 2.2ct with a halo have a roughy the same presence.

 

[Matilda]

@8ctDream another recommended vendor here who is NOT wholesale but cheaper I would say than JamesAllen etc is Martin (I think) at USAcerted diamonds:

https://usacerteddiamonds.com/?page_id=1547

 

[kmoro]

@8ctDream I can understand where you are coming from. I, myself, before I started learning more about diamonds and joined this forum had a completely different view on what was important in a stone and how “value” was to be determined. At the time, I also made purchases which I would not make at present time.

You found this forum which is obviously frequented by diamond lovers. We can be harsh in our expressions sometimes, but ultimately we all look out for the new diamond buyers and would hate for you to invest such a large chunk of money in something that will be completely illiquid or that is likely to improve/have retail value fluctuations, even if those concerns arent necessarily factors in your decision making at present time. For me, it goes back to “value” or lack thereof, but how you and I value value might be different.

Whatever you decide to do, my advice is to please take your time with your decision. Perhaps call IDJ about the stone and see where that can go. I love big rocks and I am excited for you and your SO and again strongly encourage you to take your time and think some “what if” scenarios before you pull the trigger on an immovable item

ETA: I know it’s not the same shape, but just wanted to post this for illustration purposes - 5ct solitaire vs 2.2ct with a halo have a roughy the same presence.

Hmm .. I know this is not the point of that picture, but that 5 carat oval is stunning ... which makes me think of something else ...

To the OP, have you considered a different cut for a large diamond? I’m one of the people here that thinks that the round brilliant cut does start to look ... well .. ridiculous (sorry) ... at some point in size, whereas other cuts maintain a more elegant look in those larger sizes ... all just a matter of opinion, of course

(Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this ... thread is getting long so I didn’t check ... sorry if being redundant)

 

[SimoneDi]

@kmoro, he is looking for a pear, therefore the earlier stone recommendations

 

[Octo2005]

Congratulations on your upcoming engagement!

If I am reading this thread correctly, you are in search of a large statement type ring and you are questioning the point of going with a small (4-5ct stone;LOL only on PS can we make that statement) when for the same money you can purchase a treated stone that checks all of the clarity/color boxes while allowing you to nearly double the size permitted within your budget.

I totally understand that in everyday wear, most people will be unaware of any treatment and in a "fun" piece at a more palatable price range I would say absolutely, go for it, whatever brings you joy. But at this price point and for an everyday piece, I think that durability and retained value need to factor heavily into your consideration.

I am not familiar with treated stones. I am sure that the experts can weigh in on how they hold up over time. Some things to consider that have not been addressed thus far: Are they more prone to damage, will the color change over time, how does insurance come into play if it is ever lost or stolen, etc..)

You have mentioned that you do not plan to ever upgrade, so resale and retained value are not top priorities for you. I would like to offer that "life happens". We have the best plans laid out and the universe laughs. At this price range, while you will never get all of your money back, I would take comfort in knowing that there is at least some value there. Financial circumstances can change, accidents happen and illness strikes when you least expect it.

One more point to consider, Pears are in right now, but it is certainly a trendy stone shape that comes and goes out of popularity. While your intended may be in love with the shape, she may feel differently in 10-20 years. While you may not want to "upgrade" in size in the future, she may one day decide that she prefers a different cut and it is important to know what options will be available to you if that were to happen.

 

[kmoro]

@kmoro, he is looking for a pear, therefore the earlier stone recommendations

Oh ... oooops !!!!!

Sorry!