Hearts & Arrows

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/9/2008 12:11:53 PM
Author: haider
Hi,

I looked at some Blue Nile diamonds

This one http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16699911&weight=0.83 costs £1883

This one is a Blue Nile signiture cut diamond, one of their creme de la creme diamonds http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16607917&weight=0.83 it costs £2151

They are both 0.83 ct H, VS2, no fluorescence, GIA triple excellent (cut,symmetry & polish). I ran them through HCA tool and it gave the cheaper one a rating of very good on all criteria it came out with an overall rating of 2.7 very good. The more expensive one had: -
Light Return Very Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread Very Good
Overall 3.2 Very Good


The only difference I can see is the cheaper one has feather and the more expensive one has cloud. There is a $509 diffrence between the two. How come the cheaper one rates better via the HCA? Surely it should be the other way around???

Well, first, blue nile doesn't give a hoot about the HCA. They use other factors to rate price. I suspect the table sizes may explain the differences in price: the more expensive one has a smaller table, so *might* give more fire, so they charge more... The inclusions may be more noticable in the more expensive stone too, who knows.

Remember the HCA doesn't really let you choose between 2 diamonds though. A 2.7 and a 3.2 are really the same score--they are both non-ideal. Many here, including myself, would reject those diamonds because they score over a 2. Diamonds that score under a 2 have been cut with *complimentary* crown and pavilion angles, and have nice tables and depths.

As another aside, although some like BN, it isn't often the first choice for many PSers. BN doesn't have an upgrade policy, which is a turn-off for many, and they don't usually have the stones in-house. This means that BN has not personally seen and inspected the diamonds and determined that they are awesome. Places like Whiteflash and Good old Gold have dimaonds in house that someone has looked at and determined that the stone passes muster. So if you are a newb, buying from one of those places is great because a real expert has already looked at the stone, and decided to BUY IT. WF and GOG will only put out their own money to have stones in house that they think are good deals, and have great optical performance (or in some cases they are just a good deal...but this may be the exception). So this takes the guess work out to a degree, because the diamonds have already gone through one level of selection.

I'd recommend starting your search with them.

 

[haider]

Thanks for everyone''s help so far, very much appreciated.


I have brought together a small action plan with the steps I need to take: -
1.) Find a diamond that matches the theoretical criteria required.
2.) Get it appraised by an independent appraiser.
3.) Get it''s light performance scientifically verified.

For step 3 who could I take the diamond to?
I saw these Gemex reports, are they worth the paper they are written on? Can I get Gemex reports done in London?


Haider

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/9/2008 6:40:30 PM
Author: haider
Thanks for everyone''s help so far, very much appreciated.


I have brought together a small action plan with the steps I need to take: -
1.) Find a diamond that matches the theoretical criteria required.
2.) Get it appraised by an independent appraiser.
3.) Get it''s light performance scientifically verified.

For step 3 who could I take the diamond to?
I saw these Gemex reports, are they worth the paper they are written on? Can I get Gemex reports done in London?


Haider

Step 1 can best be managed by using a reputable vendor who will find candidates for you. Step two and three will both be accomplished by an excellent appraiser like those found on PS a lot (search around, you will see them... "Oldminer" is one aka Dave Atlas). Your stone can be sent from vendor to reputable appraiser and then sent to you from there.

However, when dealing with vendors like GOG and WF, many of us don''t bother with the appraisal, since they are trusted sources and the AGS/GIA certs come with the stone.

I don''t think people give a hoot about Gemex. GOG will give you lots of info about the science behind the light return.

 

[haider]

Hmmm a bit limited now. I''m on a 30 day exchange. Apparently as long as I can provide them the spec - the maths - of the diamond they shall be able to provide me 3-4 diamonds to choose from. My first spec was GIA triple excellent, H, VS2, from 0.80 - 0.85ct it''s a nice bit of carbon. I thought the triple excellent would make it a Rolls Royce class stone. If it was a car I would say it would be a Mercedes Benz E class but now I''m thinking of going to 0.75ct Rolls Royce class stone.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I see I see... nice analogy, too

If they don''t have diamonds in house and are calling them it, it may be easier to ask them to provide the specs of a whole host of stone first, like crown and pavilion angles, and table and depth %, and then from that large list you can run the numbers through the HCA and select 4-5 that you want brought in. You can just give them number ranges for all those parameters, but apparently, different combinations of values within the ranges can produce good and not so good stones. So even if you get some brought in where each number is in the range you want, the actual combo still may not be a Rolls. But you can still weed from there, so if you cannot check the numbers before they go to the trouble of beinging the stones in, then at least you can do it after.

Something to consider is using all your knowledge to choose 2 stones you love, and then sending them both to the appraiser and letting his/her assessment help you make the final choice. If you choose a top knotch appraiser this can really work well. They will do all the optical assessments you want (again if you choose a top knotch appraiser). Of course this costs more, but may give you the piece of mind you seek since you may or may not have a vendor whom you trust completely.

You may want to buy an ideal scope, they cost about $25, and then you can take it with you when you select stones. This will also help if you don''t have ideal scope images of the diamonds from your vendor. Just google it and you will see the website with lots of good info. This is a tool that lets you see the light return of the diamond, and also to see the arrow pattern, helps you assess the cut quality. This tool is what produces all the red pictures with balck arrows are that you see on PS.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/8/2008 3:59:36 PM
Author: Lorelei

GIA Excellent cut grade diamonds can vary for cut quality it seems, so really each needs to be evaluated on it''s own proportions.

yep!! a friend of mine just return from HK where he bought a 2.05ct G vvs1 GIA stone,he show me the GIA report (graded EX cut) and ask me what i think about his stone. this stone had a crown'' of 35.5 with a pavil'' of 41.4 and the pavil depth of over 44%

soo...a GIA EX cut grade does not guarantee a well cut stone.

 

[haider]

Pretty much most of the diamonds on sale in England come from the Diamond Bourse in Hatton Garden (London's diamond district). The shops buy from there. The bourse's diamond dealers buy from Antwerp in Belgium - pretty much Europe's diamond center. That's why a lot of the stones in Europe come with a HRD (Belgium High Council) certificate. The diamond dealers usually then pay for them to certified by GIA as it's popular with buyers. Apparently there's no demand from customers for AGS certification in Europe, it's all GIA so they (diamond dealers) don't bother paying for an AGS certificate. I gave them the following spec which the diamond bourse are going to search their inventory for: -

0.75 to 0.85 ct, H colour, VS2

Total Depth between 59.5 – 61.8%
Table Diameter between 53 – 57%
Crown Angle between 34.3 – 34.8 degrees
Pavilion Angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees
Girdle: prefer 0.7% thin up to 1.8% medium, faceted
Culet: GIA none
Polish: GIA Excellent
Symmetry: GIA Excellent
The diamond is cut in correlation with the orientation of the grain.

We'll be pretty much taking a look at anything that scores below 1.
Failing that for a small additional fee they can get one cut to the spec as I'm in a bit of a hurry. Two weeks to the engagement party.


Thanks for the help and advice everyone.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/12/2008 7:41:03 AM
Author: haider

Pretty much most of the diamonds on sale in England come from the Diamond Bourse in Hatton Garden (London''s diamond district). The shops buy from there. The bourse''s diamond dealers buy from Antwerp in Belgium - pretty much Europe''s diamond center. That''s why a lot of the stones in Europe come with a HRD (Belgium High Council) certificate. The diamond dealers usually then pay for them to certified by GIA as it''s popular with buyers. Apparently there''s no demand from customers for AGS certification in Europe, it''s all GIA so they (diamond dealers) don''t bother paying for an AGS certificate. I gave them the following spec which the diamond bourse are going to search their inventory for: -

0.75 to 0.85 ct, H colour, VS2

Total Depth between 59.5 – 61.8% ?????
Table Diameter between 53 – 57%
Crown Angle between 34.3 – 34.8 degrees
Pavilion Angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees GIA round to 0.2 degrees - 40.9 is not an option
Girdle: prefer 0.7% thin up to 1.8% medium, faceted
Culet: GIA none like it matters?????
Polish: GIA Excellent
Symmetry: GIA Excellent pol and sym do not need to be excellent to mean anything
The diamond is cut in correlation with the orientation of the grain. where did you get all this BS?

We''ll be pretty much taking a look at anything that scores below 1. many prefer 1.0-1.5
Failing that for a small additional fee they can get one cut to the spec as I''m in a bit of a hurry. Two weeks to the engagement party.


Thanks for the help and advice everyone.

You suffer a great risk of having too much information and far to little knowledge Sir

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 5/12/2008 7:41:03 AM
Author: haider



Pretty much most of the diamonds on sale in England come from the Diamond Bourse in Hatton Garden (London's diamond district). The shops buy from there. The bourse's diamond dealers buy from Antwerp in Belgium - pretty much Europe's diamond center. That's why a lot of the stones in Europe come with a HRD (Belgium High Council) certificate. The diamond dealers usually then pay for them to certified by GIA as it's popular with buyers. Apparently there's no demand from customers for AGS certification in Europe, it's all GIA so they (diamond dealers) don't bother paying for an AGS certificate. I gave them the following spec which the diamond bourse are going to search their inventory for: -

0.75 to 0.85 ct, H colour, VS2

Total Depth between 59.5 – 61.8%
Table Diameter between 53 – 57%
Crown Angle between 34.3 – 34.8 degrees
Pavilion Angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees
Girdle: prefer 0.7% thin up to 1.8% medium, faceted
Culet: GIA none
Polish: GIA Excellent
Symmetry: GIA Excellent
The diamond is cut in correlation with the orientation of the grain.

We'll be pretty much taking a look at anything that scores below 1.
Failing that for a small additional fee they can get one cut to the spec as I'm in a bit of a hurry. Two weeks to the engagement party.


Thanks for the help and advice everyone.

Haider, I would say its really way too much trouble and not worth the extra fee to have something cut. Especially when you can just find something that meets your criteria from existing stocks.
I will admit that while I was still intent on buying from within Australia, I had someone make enquiries about doing just this for me - the quote came back less expensive than retail, but still about twice what you would pay online from the US

Plus you take the hazard that you have no idea the skills of the cutter - is he even capable of cutting true H&A ideals? Not everyone is qualified, from my understanding.
My apologies if you have already mentioned, but is there a reason you would be against buying online?

I hope you get what you want, but I have to admit 2 weeks may be an unrealistic deadline if you want a quality ring. Usually expect somewhere from 4 to 6 weeks. Any way you can just delay the party?

 

[risingsun]

These are the steps I took when I bought my diamond:

1. Chose a vendor who specializes in "super" ideal cut hearts & arrows stones. I chose a WF ACA and double checked the proportions with the HCA on this site. You could also go with GOG. To assure the top cut I could get, I went with an AGS graded diamond.
2. I had it sent directly to an independent appraiser. As much as these vendors have an excellent reputation, with such a large and important purchase, I wanted an objective opinion on the diamond. It was well worth it to me.
3. IA gave me report and all was as it should be. The diamond was sent to me.
4. I looked over the diamond and decided to keep it.

All of this was done within the 10 day time frame I had to return the diamond, if I was not planning to keep it.

The longest step was having the diamond set. Since you're on a time crunch, you can have a local B&M put it in a simple tiffany style setting and have your fiancee' chose her final setting later.

Asking a cutter to attempt to cut a superideal h&a diamond is not wise. Trust the cutters who have been doing this for many years and have perfected the art and science of this cut

 

[haider]

Hi Garry,

You''re on the ball there, too much info not enough knowledge in my case. I got the spec from http://www.niceice.com/holloway_cut_advisor.htm. I''m just Joe Bloggs of the street, all I want is a good stone. It should be up to the diamond industry to make it easy to purchase a good diamond, with an easy to understand grading system.

I had a word with my jeweller he said the stone I chose earlier is a beautiful stone. He reckons with the naked-eye my eye, I will not be able to tell the difference between the ideal cuts. He said it is like a Van Gogh painting, only another artist will be able to truly appreciate the skill, beauty and genius inherent in it. He said to me I should choose it like a woman, he said you know when you see naked woman whether she is beautiful or not. He said you do not need a tape-measure and microscope to tell you. He said to think less like an engineer and more like an artist...We have a bet to see if I can pick out the original diamond I had from the ideal cuts and roughly how much better they look to me. The gauntlet has been thrown down..

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/12/2008 11:13:03 AM
Author: haider
Hi Garry,

You''re on the ball there, too much info not enough knowledge in my case. I got the spec from http://www.niceice.com/holloway_cut_advisor.htm. I''m just Joe Bloggs of the street, all I want is a good stone. It should be up to the diamond industry to make it easy to purchase a good diamond, with an easy to understand grading system.

I had a word with my jeweller he said the stone I chose earlier is a beautiful stone. He reckons with the naked-eye my eye, I will not be able to tell the difference between the ideal cuts. He said it is like a Van Gogh painting, only another artist will be able to truly appreciate the skill, beauty and genius inherent in it. He said to me I should choose it like a woman, he said you know when you see naked woman whether she is beautiful or not. He said you do not need a tape-measure and microscope to tell you. He said to think less like an engineer and more like an artist...We have a bet to see if I can pick out the original diamond I had from the ideal cuts and roughly how much better they look to me. The gauntlet has been thrown down..

Your jeweller may be right Haider, but not across the board. in various lightings a really well cut stone will out perform.
I argue with those who say H&A''s, Ex sym and polish are requirements. I believe they are not.

Somoe one suggested an ideal-scope, which will take a week to get to you. It is the best way I ever found to buy a round diamond. I never ever buy without it, and i buy thousands of diamonds a year.

 

[strmrdr]

If you want to take a vacation you could go see Paul in Antwerp others have from England and it would be worth your time.
http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=61&lang=eng

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/9/2008 6:40:30 PM
Author: haider
Thanks for everyone''s help so far, very much appreciated.


I have brought together a small action plan with the steps I need to take: -
1.) Find a diamond that matches the theoretical criteria required.
2.) Get it appraised by an independent appraiser.
3.) Get it''s light performance scientifically verified.

For step 3 who could I take the diamond to?
I saw these Gemex reports, are they worth the paper they are written on? Can I get Gemex reports done in London?


Haider

Both GIA and AGS have found the Gemex machine to be lacking in consistency and repeatability.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/12/2008 7:41:03 AM
Author: haider

Pretty much most of the diamonds on sale in England come from the Diamond Bourse in Hatton Garden (London''s diamond district). The shops buy from there. The bourse''s diamond dealers buy from Antwerp in Belgium - pretty much Europe''s diamond center. That''s why a lot of the stones in Europe come with a HRD (Belgium High Council) certificate. The diamond dealers usually then pay for them to certified by GIA as it''s popular with buyers. Apparently there''s no demand from customers for AGS certification in Europe, it''s all GIA so they (diamond dealers) don''t bother paying for an AGS certificate. I gave them the following spec which the diamond bourse are going to search their inventory for: -

0.75 to 0.85 ct, H colour, VS2

Total Depth between 59.5 – 61.8%
Table Diameter between 53 – 57%
Crown Angle between 34.3 – 34.8 degrees
Pavilion Angle between 40.6 – 40.9 degrees
Girdle: prefer 0.7% thin up to 1.8% medium, faceted
Culet: GIA none
Polish: GIA Excellent
Symmetry: GIA Excellent
The diamond is cut in correlation with the orientation of the grain.

We''ll be pretty much taking a look at anything that scores below 1.
Failing that for a small additional fee they can get one cut to the spec as I''m in a bit of a hurry. Two weeks to the engagement party.


Thanks for the help and advice everyone.

You have apparently been given some bad information about AGS paper. Paul Slegers from Infinity Diamonds has a dealer in England with a store in the Hatten Garden area I believe, you could contact him to get her name and see some AGS papered diamonds.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 5/12/2008 4:52:14 PM
Author: strmrdr
If you want to take a vacation you could go see Paul in Antwerp others have from England and it would be worth your time.
http://www.craftedbyinfinity.com/index.php?pid=61&lang=eng

Yeah! What he said.

Thanks Storm.

Wink

 

[surfgirl]

haider, at some point, you simply have to love looking at the actual stone with your own eyes, no matter what the numbers are. You seem way too fixated on numbers. Why dont you just call GOG or ERD and ask them to find you what you want and let them deal with the numbers so all you need to do is see which stone speaks to you visually...? Just another, possibly more sane way to approach this. Numbers are numbers but can still give you a "meh" stone and "meh" numbers can still give you a pretty stone - at least in my real life experience...

 

[haider]

I have done so now. I have brought in someone to help: -

http://jonathancondrup.com/profile.php

I''ll be merely looking at the stones and picking what visually appeals to us the most.

 

[surfgirl]

haider, I''m glad you have help now, but you realize that you''re going to be paying a pretty premium to that guy to source your stone, right? As long as you''re cool with that, I say go for it. If you want to spend less, or if you want to compare, you might call Jon at GOG and ask him to source options for you as well and you can compare similarly graded stones from your guy and GOG, that way you could see the pricing differences as well, if that''s an issue for you.

 

[meffaman]

Date: 5/16/2008 1:49:37 PM
Author: surfgirl
haider, I'm glad you have help now, but you realize that you're going to be paying a pretty premium to that guy to source your stone, right? As long as you're cool with that, I say go for it. If you want to spend less, or if you want to compare, you might call Jon at GOG and ask him to source options for you as well and you can compare similarly graded stones from your guy and GOG, that way you could see the pricing differences as well, if that's an issue for you.

Wow! I just read that guys bio. I couldn't imagine what kind of money that guy would be looking for to assist someone in finding a diamond. Not because he's more qualified etc...., I'm just guessing he's pretty well off and doesn't need the money.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 5/16/2008 1:49:37 PM
Author: surfgirl
haider, I''m glad you have help now, but you realize that you''re going to be paying a pretty premium to that guy to source your stone, right? As long as you''re cool with that, I say go for it. If you want to spend less, or if you want to compare, you might call Jon at GOG and ask him to source options for you as well and you can compare similarly graded stones from your guy and GOG, that way you could see the pricing differences as well, if that''s an issue for you.

yep!!

 

[haider]

Hmmm, he''s not sourcing the diamonds. My jeweller''s sourcing them to the spec I pasted earlier. He''s just there to help me - an independent adviser. He''s not going to be that expensive a couple of hundered pounds which will include an appraissal of the final ring. It was educational talking to him about diamonds. His take on it is there are many tastes both regional, different age groups and ethnicities. He said numbers/angles would limit a persoon to a specific type of beauty. In the past he has worked with his clients to identify what kind of appearance they like in their diamonds, then take a look at the numbers/angles to attempt to source diamonds that display those characteristics, then his clients would make a final choice from that selection. That service obviously costs alot more. He said there is no one ideal cut, merely an ideal cut for each person''s taste at that moment in their life. I''m coming to realise it''s not just the numbers but what''s before your eye and your personal taste. He said some cultures and age groups like bright colourful clothing, others more conservative and neutra, neither is better or worse merely different.

I would bring some other internet dealers to help source diamonds but I have bought a ring from this shop, they have 30 day policy you can exchange the ring for another one with a different diamond or setting. To be honest the shop have been really good and have bent over backwards to accommodate my requests. I cannot fault them.

 

[surfgirl]

haider, thanks for explaining the service that guy is providing. I have to say that from what you mentioned, I would agree with his thinking 100% as I sometimes feel people are just looking for numbers and as you point out, really the stone has to speak to your eyes, and then you get a visceral reaction to it, regardless of the numbers. I look forward to seeing what you select!

 

[marcy]

I think going with an ideal cut or super ideal cut will be worth your time, effort and extra money. I can''t wait to see what you''ll get.

 

[ilovethiswebsite]

I was actually wondering.. If a diamond is hearts and arrows does that mean that it is automatically an excellent cut - with good fire, scintillation etc??

I was looking at a beautiful hearts and arrows diamond - but when I entered the dimensions of the pricescope grading system page - it came out saying like 4 on 5 or something crappy.

 

[haider]

Heart and Arrows shows up if you have excellent symmetry not cut. Although GENERALLY H&A diamonds have a good cut. Diamond brilliance though depends more on facet placement than symmetry.

 

[BrianTheCutter]

Date: 5/19/2008 7:18:25 AM
Author: haider
Heart and Arrows shows up if you have excellent symmetry not cut. Although GENERALLY H&A diamonds have a good cut. Diamond brilliance though depends more on facet placement than symmetry.

HAIDER
This is not a true statement, Excellent or Ideal symmetry will not guarantee a perfect group of hearts.
Meet point symmetry is what the labs grade, this is not the same as optical symmetry.

The heart patterning can indicate many things to the expert by judging the consistency and shape of the patterning
one can tell how the stone was cut, its angles and proportions.
Read more about it here on Pricescope http://www.pricescope.com/hearts_indx.asp
There are many threads about the importance of Hearts, do a search you might find them interesting
Hope this helps the newbies

 

[strmrdr]

My what a fun topic I could go on for hours....
But lets keep it simple...

The key to diamond performance is the facets are in the right place and at the right angles in relation to each other.
That is fundamental and without it nothing else is going to make a diamond perform.
Not EX/0 cut grade nor EX/ID lab symmetry nor EX/ID polish nor a 1.5 hca using averages and not hearts and arrows not even a picture perfect ASET or IS image.
While each of those can be part of the total picture they mean nothing by themselves and without the key they are useless.

Once you have the performance down you get to the subject of beauty which is a whole different ball game than performance.

When designing a diamond I get the facets (actually virtual facets) in place to look the way I want it too. Then I adjust the angles of the facets to set the performance.
That way the finished design meets both parts of the key, facets in the right place and facets at the proper angles in relation to each other. Then it is ready to be cut out of the rough.

 

[Imdanny]

I say buy an ACA from Whiteflash because that''s my favorite round diamond in the world! Easy.