Hearts & Arrows

[haider]

Hi,

I purchased a diamond for my fiancee''s platinum engagement ring (http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16104859&weight=0.82) £2300. It is certified by GIA as an excellent cut, excellent polish and very good symmetry coupled with VS2 inclusions (crystal and feather) and a H colour - I was told by the jeweller that Joe Bloggs on the street won''t be able to tell you the colour when it''s set in platinum. NOT being a diamond gourmet I thought I couldn''t go wrong if it''s got top GIA ratings coupled with my neophyte eye''s assesment of it sparkling away with a lots of fire and when it was held towards the sun it lit up like a pure white light bulb. To be honest I couldn''t tell the difference between the GIA very good cut and the excellent cut diamonds. I told my colleague about my purchase, he reckons I should have got a ''hearts and arrows'' diamond, as they are the la creme de la creme of diamonds. He has kind of sown the seed of doubt in my mind. This being a life long purchase I would like to get it right.

I did a bit of reading on the net. I then went in to De Beers, Tiffanys, Cartier, Bvlgari and Van Cleef and Arpels and none of them have heard of these ''hearts and arrows'' diamonds. I spoke to the gemologist at De Beers he said to me that if the GIA had certified the diamond with two excellent grades and a very good it was likely that it would be a good diamond. He reckoned that the so called ''hearts and arrows'' are just a gimmick/fad. He told me that De Beers have access to probably the largest stock of rough diamonds from which they select to cut/polish and that they don''t produce ''hearts and arrows'' diamonds. My colleague is adamant that they''re lying as they don''t produce them and as such they don''t want anyone buying them..So are these ''hearts and arrows'' diamonds a gimmick? Also one for the connoisseurs have I bought a ''good'' diamond- I''ve attached the link to the GIA report?

Your help is much appreciated.

Thanks
Haider

 

[Lorelei]

Welcome Haider!

Ok where to start! Hearts and arrows diamond are not a fad, especially around here. For example, Whiteflash do a true hearts and arrows branded diamond called A Cut Above, which are cut to the most exacting standards for top light performance, arrow patterning and beauty. Some may advertise their diamonds as hearts and arrows, but although a diamond may display an arrow pattern, it may not be up to the standard of a true hearts and arrows diamond, so you need to be careful if a true example of H&A is what you want.

This might be the best thing to do, is to read up on the H&A here. https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_indx.asp

Here is an example of the hearts and arrows diamond. http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-608072.htm#

It very much depends on what you want. Some want the absolute cream of the crop superideal H&A AGS0 cut grade which has stellar light return and beauty. Others just want a pretty diamond. So it depends on you really as to what you value most. Now, the diamond you have looks to have a steeper pavilion angle, which going by the Holloway Cut Advisor doesn't score so well, but the HCA can ding a diamond with a steep pav angle. I think personally, you could do better than the diamond you have from the bit of info we have to go on, but you can see the diamond and are in the best position to judge. What I would do, as you are in the UK, is to go to a jeweller or Tiffany, and compare the diamond you have with their stones, that way you can see if getting a better cut is worth it to you or not. It is cut which gives a diamond it's beauty and magic, so it is well worth concentrating on.

If a hearts and arrows/ excellently cut diamond is what you would prefer, then I would recommend looking at www.infinitydiamonds.com who are located in Antwerp ( I think) Belgium, speak to Paul Slegers who is an expert and cutter, to see what he can find for you.

 

[SYC]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:35:00 PM
Author:haider
Hi,

I purchased a diamond for my fiancee''s platinum engagement ring (http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16104859&weight=0.82) £2300. It is certified by GIA as an excellent cut, excellent polish and very good symmetry coupled with VS2 inclusions (crystal and feather) and a H colour - I was told by the jeweller that Joe Bloggs on the street won''t be able to tell you the colour when it''s set in platinum. NOT being a diamond gourmet I thought I couldn''t go wrong if it''s got top GIA ratings coupled with my neophyte eye''s assesment of it sparkling away with a lots of fire and when it was held towards the sun it lit up like a pure white light bulb. To be honest I couldn''t tell the difference between the GIA very good cut and the excellent cut diamonds. I told my colleague about my purchase, he reckons I should have got a ''hearts and arrows'' diamond, as they are the la creme de la creme of diamonds. He has kind of sown the seed of doubt in my mind. This being a life long purchase I would like to get it right.

I did a bit of reading on the net. I then went in to De Beers, Tiffanys, Cartier, Bvlgari and Van Cleef and Arpels and none of them have heard of these ''hearts and arrows'' diamonds. I spoke to the gemologist at De Beers he said to me that if the GIA had certified the diamond with two excellent grades and a very good it was likely that it would be a good diamond. He reckoned that the so called ''hearts and arrows'' are just a gimmick/fad. He told me that De Beers have access to probably the largest stock of rough diamonds from which they select to cut/polish and that they don''t produce ''hearts and arrows'' diamonds. My colleague is adamant that they''re lying as they don''t produce them and as such they don''t want anyone buying them..So are these ''hearts and arrows'' diamonds a gimmick? Also one for the connoisseurs have I bought a ''good'' diamond- I''ve attached the link to the GIA report?

Your help is much appreciated.

Thanks
Haider

If you have seen the diamond and like it, then I don''t think you necessarily have to hunt down an H&A diamond. There is something very precise about the way a diamond is cut to be called a true "H&A" diamond, and some people really love knowing that their diamond is cut in that way. However, I think that the majority of casual viewers of diamonds would have a hard time telling the difference between an H&A diamond and a very well cut, non-H&A diamond.

I am surprised, though, that all the salespeople at Tiffany, Bulgari, etc. claim not to know about H&A diamonds. Do stores carry "Hearts on Fire" diamonds there? That is probably the most well-known, branded H&A diamond cut. It is sold in very, very nice stores here; I believe, though I''m not sure, that Hearts on Fire diamonds often cost more than Tiffany''s diamonds. Maybe your colleague is onto something about the salespeople pretending not to know about H&A diamonds?

http://www.heartsonfire.com/#

 

[haider]

I have searched for AGS certified diamnds to no avail in the UK. I had intended to buy a AGS triple 0 or a GIA triple excellent. Unfortunately it seems to be GIA or the Belgium High Council (HRD) certified diamonds in the UK. Just wondering then, a GIA excellent cut grade is not an excellent cut? Does that mean the slightly informed customer cannot rely on the GIA ratings?

 

[haider]

No ''hearts and fire'' and no ''hearts and arrows''. My colleague''s from the other side of the pond in LA. I''ve been too all the big jewellers in London apart from Asprey''s - The Queen''s jewellers - I''ll give them a whirl over the weekend. I also tried to view Gabrielle diamonds but also unavailable in London, I was told at Harrods they don''t do fashion diamonds merely ''serious'' diamonds!!! I think it was a snobbery thing...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/8/2008 3:38:21 PM
Author: haider
I have searched for AGS certified diamnds to no avail in the UK. I had intended to buy a AGS triple 0 or a GIA triple excellent. Unfortunately it seems to be GIA or the Belgium High Council (HRD) certified diamonds in the UK. Just wondering then, a GIA excellent cut grade is not an excellent cut? Does that mean the slightly informed customer cannot rely on the GIA ratings?

GIA Excellent cut grade diamonds can vary for cut quality it seems, so really each needs to be evaluated on it's own proportions. There are tons of threads on this subject if you use the search tool, just type in GIA cut grading and it should keep you busy for a long time reading!

Here is a thread to start you off reading about GIA Excellent cut grade and opinions.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-ex-let-the-buyer-beware.41371/

 

[Dreamer_D]

Here on PS people tend to have very high and exacting standards for diamonds. The diamond you selected scored 5.7 on the HCA, which is "Fair to Good, worth buying if the price is right". Many people around here (PS) like to find stones that score under a 2. As Lorelei pointed out, there is a lot of debate about GIA grading, because a wider range of stones make it to Excellent. Does this mean that the "average consumer" cannot rely on GIA's ratings? Not at all. Typical PSers are not the average diamond consumers, however, and so search for diamonds that meet very precise cutting standards. This doesn't mean that you need to search for such high standards!

However, if you were the type who just cared that their diamond looked pretty and didn't care about the numbers and having the best-of-the-best, I doubts that you would have come here seeking information! It seems like knowing that you may not have purchased the "cream of the crop," so to speak, bothers you a little, and if that's the case then it might be worth doing a little more research and looking for a super-idal cut stone. Some people in the UK order from internet vendors based in the US and import the stones (you pay duties and taxes). The vendor that Lorelei recommended is also regarded highly here on PS and is based in Europe, so you may save money going in that direction.

In my personal experience, I can see the difference between my diamond (which is cut to ideal proportions) and my friends' diamonds. My stone sets off more fire under pot lights and in the sun, it is brighter in general lighting environments, and it has more scintillation and life. Even comparing my stone to some that are still better than average, I can see a difference, and many of my non-diamond obsessed friends have commented on this. You mentioned that you couldn't see the difference between your stone and a "very good" cut... in jewelry stores the lighting tends to be a great equalizer, but in a wider variety of lighting conditions you may have been able to see a difference.

So is it worth getting a super ideal cut stone? That's up to you, some will tell you to just "use your eyes" and if your current stone looks pretty then keep it and love it! I suspect that the "super ideal" cat may be out of the bag now, and once that happens, for many people there is no going back.

 

[Lorelei]

What a great post DD!!!

 

[haider]

Hi,

Thanks for the great replies. It certainly has been eye-opener. It would be nice if there was a layman''s system which told you in plain English what you were buying. Excellent cut should be just that, as near to perfect as humanely possible. To be honest my fiancee likes 0.75 ct stone as she finds it complements the size of her fingers well. I''ll look in to the hearts and arrows diamonds and try and source some top quality carbon.

What do you think of Gabrielle diamonds?

Thanks
Haider

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/8/2008 4:36:29 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

In my personal experience, I can see the difference between my diamond (which is cut to ideal proportions) and my friends'' diamonds. My stone sets off more fire under pot lights and in the sun, it is brighter in general lighting environments, and it has more scintillation and life. Even comparing my stone to some that are still better than average, I can see a difference, and many of my non-diamond obsessed friends have commented on this. You mentioned that you couldn''t see the difference between your stone and a ''very good'' cut... in jewelry stores the lighting tends to be a great equalizer, but in a wider variety of lighting conditions you may have been able to see a difference.

pssst, dreamer, you sure you wanna broadcast that??

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/8/2008 6:39:12 PM
Author: haider
Hi,

Thanks for the great replies. It certainly has been eye-opener. It would be nice if there was a layman''s system which told you in plain English what you were buying. Excellent cut should be just that, as near to perfect as humanely possible. To be honest my fiancee likes 0.75 ct stone as she finds it complements the size of her fingers well. I''ll look in to the hearts and arrows diamonds and try and source some top quality carbon.

What do you think of Gabrielle diamonds?

Thanks
Haider

I agree, EX cut should be just that.

One note, HRD seems to have a very good reputation amongst the real pros on here. Might do a search to see what all they''ve said, and get a feel for their certs/grading. Also, I don''t know much, nor have heard much on the Gabrielle, try searching that too and see what you find.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 5/8/2008 7:21:37 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 5/8/2008 4:36:29 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

In my personal experience, I can see the difference between my diamond (which is cut to ideal proportions) and my friends'' diamonds. My stone sets off more fire under pot lights and in the sun, it is brighter in general lighting environments, and it has more scintillation and life. Even comparing my stone to some that are still better than average, I can see a difference, and many of my non-diamond obsessed friends have commented on this. You mentioned that you couldn''t see the difference between your stone and a ''very good'' cut... in jewelry stores the lighting tends to be a great equalizer, but in a wider variety of lighting conditions you may have been able to see a difference.

pssst, dreamer, you sure you wanna broadcast that??

LOL!! Potlights.... I sets off fire under POTLIGHTS... yeah, that''s what I means

 

[arjunajane]

Personally, I just like the appearance of an ideal true H&A to a traditionally faceted round.
I think the only stores who call it a gimmick are the ones who don''t sell them and are pushing their own branded cuts...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/8/2008 7:21:37 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 5/8/2008 4:36:29 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie

In my personal experience, I can see the difference between my diamond (which is cut to ideal proportions) and my friends' diamonds. My stone sets off more fire under pot lights and in the sun, it is brighter in general lighting environments, and it has more scintillation and life. Even comparing my stone to some that are still better than average, I can see a difference, and many of my non-diamond obsessed friends have commented on this. You mentioned that you couldn't see the difference between your stone and a 'very good' cut... in jewelry stores the lighting tends to be a great equalizer, but in a wider variety of lighting conditions you may have been able to see a difference.

pssst, dreamer, you sure you wanna broadcast that??

Haider, I don't know anything about Gabrielle diamonds, unless they are some sort of branded cut. If you want to get a hearts and arrows, I would contact Paul at Infinity, as he may be able to source you a beauty.

 

[haider]

No Way Lorelei!!! Gabrielle cut has been created by Gabi Tolkowsky the master Diamond cutter who cut the Centenary Diamond for De Beers .
http://www.gabriellediamonds.com/home/default.asp

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/9/2008 7:17:22 AM
Author: haider
No Way Lorelei!!! Gabrielle cut has been created by Gabi Tolkowsky the master Diamond cutter who cut the Centenary Diamond for De Beers .
http://www.gabriellediamonds.com/home/default.asp

DUH! Of course! Sorry not enough coffee * slinks off and hides*

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/9/2008 7:17:22 AM
Author: haider
No Way Lorelei!!! Gabrielle cut has been created by Gabi Tolkowsky the master Diamond cutter who cut the Centenary Diamond for De Beers .
http://www.gabriellediamonds.com/home/default.asp

To be honest, the only time I''ve ever really heard of one was with BlueKeets ring. They are not popular, at least around here.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/8/2008 4:36:29 PM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
Here on PS people tend to have very high and exacting standards for diamonds. The diamond you selected scored 5.7 on the HCA, which is ''Fair to Good, worth buying if the price is right''. Many people around here (PS) like to find stones that score under a 2. As Lorelei pointed out, there is a lot of debate about GIA grading, because a wider range of stones make it to Excellent. Does this mean that the ''average consumer'' cannot rely on GIA''s ratings? Not at all. Typical PSers are not the average diamond consumers, however, and so search for diamonds that meet very precise cutting standards. This doesn''t mean that you need to search for such high standards!

However, if you were the type who just cared that their diamond looked pretty and didn''t care about the numbers and having the best-of-the-best, I doubts that you would have come here seeking information! It seems like knowing that you may not have purchased the ''cream of the crop,'' so to speak, bothers you a little, and if that''s the case then it might be worth doing a little more research and looking for a super-idal cut stone. Some people in the UK order from internet vendors based in the US and import the stones (you pay duties and taxes). The vendor that Lorelei recommended is also regarded highly here on PS and is based in Europe, so you may save money going in that direction.

In my personal experience, I can see the difference between my diamond (which is cut to ideal proportions) and my friends'' diamonds. My stone sets off more fire under pot lights and in the sun, it is brighter in general lighting environments, and it has more scintillation and life. Even comparing my stone to some that are still better than average, I can see a difference, and many of my non-diamond obsessed friends have commented on this. You mentioned that you couldn''t see the difference between your stone and a ''very good'' cut... in jewelry stores the lighting tends to be a great equalizer, but in a wider variety of lighting conditions you may have been able to see a difference.

So is it worth getting a super ideal cut stone? That''s up to you, some will tell you to just ''use your eyes'' and if your current stone looks pretty then keep it and love it! I suspect that the ''super ideal'' cat may be out of the bag now, and once that happens, for many people there is no going back.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 5/8/2008 2:47:29 PM
Author: Lorelei
Welcome Haider!

If a hearts and arrows/ excellently cut diamond is what you would prefer, then I would recommend looking at www.infinitydiamonds.com who are located in Antwerp ( I think) Belgium, speak to Paul Slegers who is an expert and cutter, to see what he can find for you.

I did not see this until now, and I am just here for a small correction. More would be violating forum rules.

Our website is www.craftedbyinfinity.com or www.infinitydiamonds.be. Unfortunately, some Japan-based company beat us in taking the .com-address.

Thank you,

 

[Dreamer_D]

Wow, clappy guys from Lorelei and Garry! Thanks!

Does this mean I get my official PS membership button and secret decoder ring now?

Note, the PS secret decoder ring has a 1.5ct super-ideal cut diamond in the center, and it is surrounded by fishtail pave. Really, it is stunning, I can''t wait to get mine in the mail. Garry, do you need my address?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/9/2008 8:18:15 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 5/8/2008 2:47:29 PM
Author: Lorelei
Welcome Haider!

If a hearts and arrows/ excellently cut diamond is what you would prefer, then I would recommend looking at www.infinitydiamonds.com who are located in Antwerp ( I think) Belgium, speak to Paul Slegers who is an expert and cutter, to see what he can find for you.

I did not see this until now, and I am just here for a small correction. More would be violating forum rules.

Our website is www.craftedbyinfinity.com or www.infinitydiamonds.be. Unfortunately, some Japan-based company beat us in taking the .com-address.

Thank you,

Good thing you alerted me Paul, thanks!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/9/2008 8:54:16 AM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
Wow, clappy guys from Lorelei and Garry! Thanks!

Does this mean I get my official PS membership button and secret decoder ring now?

Note, the PS secret decoder ring has a 1.5ct super-ideal cut diamond in the center, and it is surrounded by fishtail pave. Really, it is stunning, I can''t wait to get mine in the mail. Garry, do you need my address?

Dream on, dreamer.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/9/2008 9:00:09 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 5/9/2008 8:54:16 AM
Author: dreamer_dachsie
Wow, clappy guys from Lorelei and Garry! Thanks!

Does this mean I get my official PS membership button and secret decoder ring now?

Note, the PS secret decoder ring has a 1.5ct super-ideal cut diamond in the center, and it is surrounded by fishtail pave. Really, it is stunning, I can''t wait to get mine in the mail. Garry, do you need my address?

Dream on, dreamer.

LOL!!

 

[Showmethefire]

Date: 5/8/2008 6:39:12 PM
Author: haider
Hi,


Thanks for the great replies. It certainly has been eye-opener. It would be nice if there was a layman''s system which told you in plain English what you were buying. Excellent cut should be just that, as near to perfect as humanely possible. To be honest my fiancee likes 0.75 ct stone as she finds it complements the size of her fingers well. I''ll look in to the hearts and arrows diamonds and try and source some top quality carbon.


What do you think of Gabrielle diamonds?


Thanks

Haider

Hi Haider,
Welcome to PS!

. I''ve seen a few of the Gabrielle diamonds before. They do seem to have quite a lot of fire and scintillation. Of course they will tell you that its because of their 105 facets. But from what I''ve read on PS here, is that it doesn''t seem to turn up quite well on an idealscope. I didn''t use my idealscope on it at my local B&M store, so I can''t quite verify that fact. To read up more about the idealscope, do check out this weblink http://www.ideal-scope.com/
At the end of the day, I think what matters most is what kind of diamond your fiancee likes. Some ppl like diamonds with more facets, some do not. If you are really not sure,then I suggest that you get a well cut round brilliant 57 facet diamond. That is the safest bet. Unless she has indicated that she likes other shapes of diamonds.
On top of the tutorials here on pricescope. I recommend you read about the 4 Cs from this website as well. http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/, and it helps a layman to understand a lot more about diamonds.
Hope I''ve helped.

 

[haider]

Can I ask any particular reason why Gabrielle Diamonds are not popular round these parts?

To throw something else in to the mix i read this on wikipedia...
'Although the hearts and arrows property is indicative of a top-tier cut, it does not always mean the diamond will be the most brilliant. Optimal facet placement is the key to brilliance and more important than facet patterning. Not all ideal round cuts will have the hearts and arrows effect either.'

 

[Showmethefire]

Oops, sorry. I didn''t read carefully that you already got yours. But no harm reading up on the 4Cs of diamonds. It helps a lot.

 

[Showmethefire]

Date: 5/9/2008 9:09:04 AM
Author: haider
Can I ask why - they''re not popular round these parts?

Just to clarify, when you say they''re not popular around these parts, you mean the round brilliant hearts and arrows diamonds? And around which parts of the world?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/9/2008 9:09:04 AM
Author: haider
Can I ask why - they''re not popular round these parts?

I''m not really sure. My "guess" would be, one) they probably come with a premium many might not want to spend, two) they are probably only carried be selected jewelers, and those are probably not in abundance, so many may not even be aware of them, and three) those who compare might simply prefer a well cut round.

But that''s just a guess. In the end, it''s all about what you like, and can afford though!

 

[zerj]

Date: 5/9/2008 9:09:04 AM
Author: haider
Can I ask any particular reason why Gabrielle Diamonds are not popular round these parts?

To throw something else in to the mix i read this on wikipedia...
''Although the hearts and arrows property is indicative of a top-tier cut, it does not always mean the diamond will be the most brilliant. Optimal facet placement is the key to brilliance and more important than facet patterning. Not all ideal round cuts will have the hearts and arrows effect either.''

I can take a stab at this one. Brilliance is I believe related to some of the basic angles of reflection in the diamond. When a beam of light reaches the back side of a diamond it can do one of two things. It can pass straight through onto your finger or it can bounce off back up to the top and hopefully come out towards your eyes. What it does is dependant on the index of refraction (constant for all diamonds) and the angle that the beam of light hits the back of the stone with.

Theorectially I think you could have a very nice Hearts and arrows pattern that was not optimized to bounce as much light as possible. Also you could have a non hearts and arrows patterned diamond that did do a good job bouncing the light back.

You may have noticed a people referencing the Hollaway Cut Advisor score (HCA) this is a tool created by Gary above, and is used as a predictor of Brilliance/Fire based on some proportions shown in the grading reports. It is not at all a predictor of Hearts and Arrows patterning.

As an aside you were questioning the differences between ''excellent'' cut grades of the different labs earlier, One of the helpful things with the cut advisor is the output graph shows what proportions have the potential to get ''excellent''/AGS-0 grades/(HCA<2.0) from GIA/AGS. You can tell on the graph that these are not graded the same. AGS does seem to be stricter than GIA here. Also I say potential because the HCA isn''t looking at the stone. The cutter could completely forget to cut a couple of facets and it would still show up with the same HCA score. Presumably the AGS/GIA reports would downcheck the cut grade due to this.

 

[haider]

Hi,

I looked at some Blue Nile diamonds

This one http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16699911&weight=0.83 costs £1883

This one is a Blue Nile signiture cut diamond, one of their creme de la creme diamonds http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16607917&weight=0.83 it costs £2151

They are both 0.83 ct H, VS2, no fluorescence, GIA triple excellent (cut,symmetry & polish). I ran them through HCA tool and it gave the cheaper one a rating of very good on all criteria it came out with an overall rating of 2.7 very good. The more expensive one had: -
Light Return Very Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread Very Good
Overall 3.2 Very Good


The only difference I can see is the cheaper one has feather and the more expensive one has cloud. There is a $509 diffrence between the two. How come the cheaper one rates better via the HCA? Surely it should be the other way around???