hearts and arrows

[frankfalkner]

if a diamond is agsl 000 (new definition) will it be a H/A by defintion?

 

[pricescope]

AGS0 doesn''t guarantee H&A symmetry. You have to check it with H&A viewer.

 

[frankfalkner]

and the H/A have a better sparkle than the regular ideal cut?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 5/27/2005 9:58:26 AM
Author: frankfalkner
and the H/A have a better sparkle than the regular ideal cut?

No.

H&A refers to the precision of the hearts and arrow pattern appearance, not to light performance.

 

[pricescope]

some people like "super-ideal" symmetry stones and can see the difference. Some don''t. Try to compare them side by side at your local store that cares both products.

 

[Spear]

Date: 5/27/2005 9:41:53 AM
Author:frankfalkner
if a diamond is agsl 000 (new definition) will it be a H/A by defintion?

Doesn't the AGS 0 rating for symmetry meen that it is likely to display H & A?
I know that looking at the stone through a H & A viewer is the best indication.
But aren't stones graded AGS 0 supposed to show H & A, even if the hearts or arrows look a bit distorted?

 

[belle]

Date: 5/27/2005 10:43:43 AM
Author: Spear

Date: 5/27/2005 9:41:53 AM
Author:frankfalkner
if a diamond is agsl 000 (new definition) will it be a H/A by defintion?

Doesn''t the AGS 0 rating for symmetry meen that it is likely to display H & A?
I know that looking at the stone through a H & A viewer is the best indication.
But aren''t stones graded AGS 0 supposed to show H & A?

not necessarily

hearts and arrows is a patterned cut, which because of the preciseness of the cut is ideal, but not all ideals are patterened as hearts and arrows.

link to definition of triple ideal
link to hearts and arrows

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 5/27/2005 10:43:43 AM
Author: Spear

Date: 5/27/2005 9:41:53 AM
Author:frankfalkner
if a diamond is agsl 000 (new definition) will it be a H/A by defintion?

Doesn''t the AGS 0 rating for symmetry meen that it is likely to display H & A?
I know that looking at the stone through a H & A viewer is the best indication.
But aren''t stones graded AGS 0 supposed to show H & A, even if the hearts or arrows look a bit distorted?

A diamond with ideal symmetry is like to display SOME resemblance.....weak or strong....to the H&A pattern. It''s a by-product of how the facets are cut.

However, in order to truly BE an H&A diamond, the pattern has to meet certain standards. If it doesn''t, then it''s not a true H&A. If the hearts and arrows are a bit distorted, then it isn''t a true H&A stone.

H&A means that the presence of the pattern is inspected and found to meet or exceed the standard on a number of things; crispness of the pattern, no clefts in the hearts; uniform spacing betweeen the hearts and arrowheads, and a slew of other things.

If one heart is slightly smaller than the other, the diamond isn''t a true H&A. Does that mean it''s not beautiful? No. Does that mean it doesn''t have some H&A pattern resemblance? No. It just means that the pattern isn''t "perfect" enough to be termed an H&A diamond.

 

[Spear]

Thank you Belle and aljdewey!

If Frank didn't bring up this topic, I would probably always believe that ideal symmetry would result in a perfect display of H & A.

Thank You

 

[Nicrez]

I believe a Cento diamond (100 facets) can have a ranking of AGS 000 and STILL never be H&A.

Sorry to ask a silly question but AGS 000 stands for what exactly? Excellent Polish, Excellent Symmetry and what''s the third 0 for? Don''t they also grade the color and clarity by a number grade as well? Is a D a 0? Is a F a 0 as well?

 

[belle]

you''re welcome spear!

nicrez, here''s the link to triple zero

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 5/27/2005 11:18:09 AM
Author: Nicrez

Sorry to ask a silly question but AGS 000 stands for what exactly? Excellent Polish, Excellent Symmetry and what's the third 0 for? Don't they also grade the color and clarity by a number grade as well? Is a D a 0? Is a F a 0 as well?

AGS000 - the 0s usually meant this: Cut grade, Color Grade, Clarity Grade. So, as intended, an AGS000 meant Ideal Cut, D, IF stone.

However, over time, it seems this got confused because the Cut grade is made up of three elements - Polish, Symmetry, and Proportions. All of them get a score, too. (more on that below)

Every color grade step down is a half-point, so D=0, E=0.5; f=1, g=1.5, etc.
Every clarity grade step down is a full point - thus, IF=0, VVS1=1, VVS2=2, VS=3, etc.

On the cut, 0 = Ideal, 1= Excellent, 2=VG, 3/4 = Good, 5/6/7 = Fair, 8/9/10 = Poor.

However on the cut grade, the grade is a reflection of its worst score among the 3 sub-categories of polish/symmetry/proportions.

Ideal (0) polish, Ideal (0) symmetry, and Ideal (0) proportion = final cut grade of Ideal (0).
Ideal (0) polish, Excellent (1) symmetry, and Ideal (0) proportion = final cut grade of Excellent (1).
VG (2) polish, Ideal (0) symmetry, and Ideal (0) proportion = final cut grade of VG (2).
VG (2) polish, Excellent (1) symmetry, and Ideal (0) proportion = final cut grade of VG (2).

Over time, people considered the red example above to be AGS000, and that's what many folks mean now when the refer to AGS000.

 

[Nicrez]

Thanks AL, that really explained it well.

I always assumed an AGS 000 was the original version, and now I understand. Imagine my suprise to hear people ask for an AGS 000 with a 6000 budget! Now it makes sense!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 5/27/2005 10:26:59 AM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 5/27/2005 9:58:26 AM
Author: frankfalkner
and the H/A have a better sparkle than the regular ideal cut?

No.

H&A refers to the precision of the hearts and arrow pattern appearance, not to light performance.

Hello dear!

This is a common misconception. Let me expound on why this is wrong.

H&A has EVERYTHING to do with light performance. Granted the pattern doesn''t have to be *perfect* but the presence of the H&A pattern has much to do with light performance.

In an H&A viewer the primary color being reflected perpendicular to the crown is the flat white eye piece that the observer is peering through. The presence of the 8 white arrows is indicative of light exiting the crown at the high angles. While an H&A viewer is not the best tool for observation of light return/leakage the presence of the 8 white arrows is proof that the pavilion mains are functioning and directing light as they are supposed to. Light exiting the diamond at those high angles account for the strongest flashes a viewer will observe in direct light conditions (generally in the observation of fire). VERY important for light performance. Also if you take note of one of the shots posted of the new AGS "0" princess cuts, one of those shots are taken under an H&A viewer. You will note an unusual amount of reflection of *white* under the H&A viewer. A good indicator that the stone will have great light performance (which was actually confirmed with BrillianceScope results as well). That covers direct light conditions.

In diffuse light conditions the arrows play perhaps an even more prominent role as they provide for important points of contrast which directly contributes to the brightness of the diamond in less strong conditions. Take an H&A diamond into white hemisphere lighting (cloudy day conditions are perhaps the best example) and the observer not only can see how bright their diamond is but they can also observe the beautiful symmetry with which an H&A was cut. These are features of H&A diamonds that a person will see the practical results of which is a direct result of H&A cutting. We anlayze it through the H&A viewer and yes, the primary feature we are observing there is the precision to which the facets have been placed on a 3 dimensional scale but H&A goes way beyond looking at the pattern through a viewer.

Hope that helps.

 

[Nicrez]

Rhino, are there other percise patterns other than H&A that show optimal light reflection in both rounds and shaped stones?

Is the new AGS0 princess stone cut with a different pattern, or just cut to the right corresponding angles for it''s crown and pav?

 

[Rhino]

Hi Nicerez,

Rhino, are there other percise patterns other than H&A that show optimal light reflection in both rounds and shaped stones?

In the face up position it''s generlaly that of *arrows* however there are other shapes with superior light return that produce a slightly different image from the H&A rounds we are accustomed to seeing. Take this pic of a Jubilee for example. There is a definite optical symmetry pattern which includes arrows however it is markedly different from a round.

Is the new AGS0 princess stone cut with a different pattern, or just cut to the right corresponding angles for it''s crown and pav?

The answer is BOTH.

There is a beautiful symmetrical pattern in the example that was posted on the other thread resembling and X type pattern PLUS the new AGS "0" princess cuts are indeed cut to the right corresponding angles.

I wait in anticipation to begin featuring these (which we will) and compare them to the H&A squares we currently feature. Full writeup with all exams once they''re here.