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Hearts and Arrows vs. Other Ideal Cuts
- Thread starter mynameisnoah
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elle_chris
Ideal_Rock
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strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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It always helps to know what virtual facets are.
Several people have found my article helped explain it.
While it was written with step cuts in mind it applies to all diamonds.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/61/1/Virtual-Facets-and-patterns%2c-a-Discussion-about-step-cuts-.aspx
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Thank you Elle - I welcome the opportunity to address it.
Sorry about the https link. I had it bookmarked that way. I will ask Andrey to change it to http.
http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/conference_posters/_5.htm
If you enjoy that, here''s an interactive ETAS link where you can play with shapes and parameters. It is limited to "perfect" wire frame symmetry (impossible IRL) so not useful for the fundamental q you posed - but it''s interesting to explore. Credit to MSU Gemological Center and Octonus.
http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/comp/scint1.htm
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Look what I found when I was checking my bookmarks for ETAS & Scint Studies.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/11/1/Hearts--Arrows-Diamonds---Its-not-all-about-light-return.aspx
Unless I misremember this was prior to AGSL and GIA employing contrast (GIA = pattern) in their metrics. Nice work.
strmrdr
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backing up a little bit from virtual facets.
If someone claims a diamond is h&a they should prove it with heart pictures and images that show the arrows. (IS, ASET or h&a viewer all show the arrows)
With just a face up image the best supported claim that can be made is excellent face up optical symmetry which is the step below h&a.
With no images a claim is just a claim and not worth much.
If someone claims a diamond is h&a they should prove it with heart pictures and images that show the arrows. (IS, ASET or h&a viewer all show the arrows)
With just a face up image the best supported claim that can be made is excellent face up optical symmetry which is the step below h&a.
With no images a claim is just a claim and not worth much.
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Good point, Storm.
May I also thank you for saying that both pictures of the hearts and the arrows are necessary? I know that it is commonly phrased here that one learns most from the Hearts-image. That is indeed correct in the top-group of hearts-images, where it is clear that this could not be formed without the arrows being in order.
But at a slightly lower level of hearts-quality, it is possible to have a hearts-like pattern without the stone having anything of an arrows-pattern. The Japanese labs, who originally graded H&A, even had a secondary grade of ''Hearts only'' for such stones.
Live long,
May I also thank you for saying that both pictures of the hearts and the arrows are necessary? I know that it is commonly phrased here that one learns most from the Hearts-image. That is indeed correct in the top-group of hearts-images, where it is clear that this could not be formed without the arrows being in order.
But at a slightly lower level of hearts-quality, it is possible to have a hearts-like pattern without the stone having anything of an arrows-pattern. The Japanese labs, who originally graded H&A, even had a secondary grade of ''Hearts only'' for such stones.
Live long,
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Does precise optical symmetry create higher performance and how much is good enough?
The answer is complex because it involves the least understood metric of diamond performance, scintillation.
It is the least understood because it is the most complex as it involves every other facet of diamond performance rolled into one combined with motion.
The research into it is not complete and will not likely be complete to my satisfaction for several years yet.
Excellent face up symmetry can be shown as a good thing by using contrast patterns that humans are programed to enjoy.
The next step up the ladder is a harder one to make but there are some indications there is a differences in performance and as a part of the metric of craftsmanship it is an important part.
One major difference today than in the past is that cutting has improved and face up optical symmetry and h&a are far more common than it once was.
That is why it is possible to find a h&a diamond that is not sold as such.
But the only way to tell for sure if it is h&a is to view the hearts under a h&a scope and see the arrows in another image/view.
If someone claims h&a they should provide such proof.
The answer is complex because it involves the least understood metric of diamond performance, scintillation.
It is the least understood because it is the most complex as it involves every other facet of diamond performance rolled into one combined with motion.
The research into it is not complete and will not likely be complete to my satisfaction for several years yet.
Excellent face up symmetry can be shown as a good thing by using contrast patterns that humans are programed to enjoy.
The next step up the ladder is a harder one to make but there are some indications there is a differences in performance and as a part of the metric of craftsmanship it is an important part.
One major difference today than in the past is that cutting has improved and face up optical symmetry and h&a are far more common than it once was.
That is why it is possible to find a h&a diamond that is not sold as such.
But the only way to tell for sure if it is h&a is to view the hearts under a h&a scope and see the arrows in another image/view.
If someone claims h&a they should provide such proof.
risingsun
Ideal_Rock
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L
Lula
Guest
I empathize with the OP (Noah)! It's tough, when you're just starting out on the diamond search, to process all the information offered here on PS.
As someone who just completed the journey, I can tell you I struggled with the same question -- whether branded cuts, and the H&A "name" in particular, was worth the extra money. Here are some thoughts that may make your search a little easier:
1. If you spend enough time on this forum educating yourself and posting stones for the forum's feedback, you will get a beautiful stone, and definitely a better performing stone than most of what you've seen IRL (unless you live in the diamond district). This is true whether you pick your stone from Blue Nile or from Tiffany or Cartier or from one of the vendors on this site who sell various brands like Eightstar, Infinity, ACA, Brian Gavin, etc. Knowledge about cut is power in the marketplace!
2. Good cut makes a beautiful stone -- repeat -- good cut makes a beautiful stone! This is the "science" part of buying a stone. That said, variations in cut, even within the ideal parameters, is what gives diamonds their "personality" and what I call character. If you read this forum long enough, you will find that different posters have different preferences about a stone's appearance or character. Minor facets (there are tutorials about this) also influence a stone's character. This is the "art" part of buying a stone. If you haven't already, take a look at John Pollard's article
Laboratory Cut Grades: What the Report Doesn't Show
and Storm's article:
Do the pavilion mains...
3. Branded cuts. This is the area that, I think, causes where I think newbies get the most confused. As Black Jade and elle_chris and others point out, if you learn about cut, you will find a beautiful, high-performing stone, which does not have to be a branded "H&A" or a branded cut (like Hearts on Fire or ACA or Infinity, etc.). As John Pollard points out, the term "H&A" has become kind of a junk term in the business and consumers need to be aware of what a seller means by that term; unfortunately, different sellers have different standards when it comes to H&A. If you want a particular "look" to a stone and you are a bit more into the geeky side of cut (cut precision) you will appreciate branded cuts. You will pay a premium for these stones because the cutter has set up a series of specific parameters that the cutter believes produces maximum beauty and performance in a stone (Hearts on Fire; ACA by Whiteflash; Crafted by Infinity by Paul Slegers; Brian Gavin Diamonds; Eightstar; GOG signature cushions, etc.). I chose a Crafted by Infinity stone for my ring because I am a cut geek who appreciates cut precision and I like the consistent "look" and the character of the Infinity stones. Other people prefer the look of Eightstars or Hearts on Fire. This is about personal preference (what Lorelei and others were referring to).
4. Precision cuts. I, too, am beginning to think that "precision cut" is a more accurate term than "H&A." Many branded cuts market themselves as precision cuts. I love the precise patterning of fire and sparkle in my Infinity stone, and I love the crisp, tailored look of the stone. I, too, believe that precision cutting makes a stone more beautiful and improves its performance, but that's my preference, and I'm willing to pay more for my preference. I also plan to upgrade my stone at some point and I like the assurance that precision cutting and branded cuts offer to me, i.e., that my next stone will have the same character and performance that I love in my current stone -- it's about consistency to me.
5. Figure out what matters to you -- if it's the biggest high-performing stone for the least amount of money, you can get that with the help of the tutorials and the input from forum members. If, like me, you find that you are more of a cut geek, the tutorials and the input from fellow cut geeks will help you find the mathematically balanced stone of your dreams
. And, finally, if, also like me, you fall in love with a specific brand because you like the character and performance of that brand, the tutorials and the feedback will help you choose a great stone within your budget from a vendor who sells your favorite brand.
6. I am a newbie, too, and if I've said anything incorrect, will the more tenured members of the forum please chime in?
Good luck to you, Noah, and enjoy the search!
As someone who just completed the journey, I can tell you I struggled with the same question -- whether branded cuts, and the H&A "name" in particular, was worth the extra money. Here are some thoughts that may make your search a little easier:
1. If you spend enough time on this forum educating yourself and posting stones for the forum's feedback, you will get a beautiful stone, and definitely a better performing stone than most of what you've seen IRL (unless you live in the diamond district). This is true whether you pick your stone from Blue Nile or from Tiffany or Cartier or from one of the vendors on this site who sell various brands like Eightstar, Infinity, ACA, Brian Gavin, etc. Knowledge about cut is power in the marketplace!
2. Good cut makes a beautiful stone -- repeat -- good cut makes a beautiful stone! This is the "science" part of buying a stone. That said, variations in cut, even within the ideal parameters, is what gives diamonds their "personality" and what I call character. If you read this forum long enough, you will find that different posters have different preferences about a stone's appearance or character. Minor facets (there are tutorials about this) also influence a stone's character. This is the "art" part of buying a stone. If you haven't already, take a look at John Pollard's article
Laboratory Cut Grades: What the Report Doesn't Show
and Storm's article:
Do the pavilion mains...
3. Branded cuts. This is the area that, I think, causes where I think newbies get the most confused. As Black Jade and elle_chris and others point out, if you learn about cut, you will find a beautiful, high-performing stone, which does not have to be a branded "H&A" or a branded cut (like Hearts on Fire or ACA or Infinity, etc.). As John Pollard points out, the term "H&A" has become kind of a junk term in the business and consumers need to be aware of what a seller means by that term; unfortunately, different sellers have different standards when it comes to H&A. If you want a particular "look" to a stone and you are a bit more into the geeky side of cut (cut precision) you will appreciate branded cuts. You will pay a premium for these stones because the cutter has set up a series of specific parameters that the cutter believes produces maximum beauty and performance in a stone (Hearts on Fire; ACA by Whiteflash; Crafted by Infinity by Paul Slegers; Brian Gavin Diamonds; Eightstar; GOG signature cushions, etc.). I chose a Crafted by Infinity stone for my ring because I am a cut geek who appreciates cut precision and I like the consistent "look" and the character of the Infinity stones. Other people prefer the look of Eightstars or Hearts on Fire. This is about personal preference (what Lorelei and others were referring to).
4. Precision cuts. I, too, am beginning to think that "precision cut" is a more accurate term than "H&A." Many branded cuts market themselves as precision cuts. I love the precise patterning of fire and sparkle in my Infinity stone, and I love the crisp, tailored look of the stone. I, too, believe that precision cutting makes a stone more beautiful and improves its performance, but that's my preference, and I'm willing to pay more for my preference. I also plan to upgrade my stone at some point and I like the assurance that precision cutting and branded cuts offer to me, i.e., that my next stone will have the same character and performance that I love in my current stone -- it's about consistency to me.
5. Figure out what matters to you -- if it's the biggest high-performing stone for the least amount of money, you can get that with the help of the tutorials and the input from forum members. If, like me, you find that you are more of a cut geek, the tutorials and the input from fellow cut geeks will help you find the mathematically balanced stone of your dreams
. And, finally, if, also like me, you fall in love with a specific brand because you like the character and performance of that brand, the tutorials and the feedback will help you choose a great stone within your budget from a vendor who sells your favorite brand. 6. I am a newbie, too, and if I've said anything incorrect, will the more tenured members of the forum please chime in?
Good luck to you, Noah, and enjoy the search!
elle_chris
Ideal_Rock
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Karl- I started with your virtual facet writeup. Thank you, it most definitely helped me understand what they were.
Risingsun- I know i sometimes come off harsher than i intend to, and I apologize for that. I really didn't mean any harm. I'm also glad the experts weighed in and provided the MASSIVE amount of links
(from what i've read so far though there hasn't been any proof that true H&A's offer superior scint to just plain old ideals. please don't kill me though, as i haven't finished reading everything yet!!)
I know i sound like a broken record because I have a knack for coming off a an H&A basher. That is really not my intent. The reason that i seem to always have something to say is because i own true H&A's myself. A 1ct from GOG, numerous half carats from WF and most recently 2 stones from JA. I do agree that you can't really call a stone an H&A unless you see the hearts images so for now i'll just call my JA stones ideal cut.
I also own a 2.52ct GIA excellent with a great idealscope and numbers. Prior to purchasing the GIA stone, but already having a few H&A's i thought that H&A's were the only way to go for optimum "light return". After learning the relationship between the numbers and being a die-hard fan of idealscope images, i ventured out into GIA territory for a stone that wasn't a true H&A.
Now maybe it's just my vision (i'm far sighted), but i do not see a difference in performance under any lighting conditions. Sure, there are different nuances between all the stones. Some appear brighter, some appear to have bit more fire, and I've learned to spot color in certain lighting conditions but that's it. I still can't see the arrows most of the time unless I'm taking a pic with macro on. Once in awhile I'll spot them if I stand under a tree (standing under trees doesn't happen much NYC though).
Other than that, as far as performance goes, i can not in all honesty say any one of the stones is better than another.
That's not to say that I don't appreciate the symmetry that comes into play when cutting true H&A stones, I do. It's just that when someone comes on and asks "is it worth the premium?" to me that depends. If you have to sacrifice any of the other C's then no, it's not. But that's just "my" opinion. And I can only base "my" opinion on what I've observed as a consumer, between my own stones.
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